Force Sword damage

[Kamil Blecharczyk]

Does sword created by Force Sword spells from Arcane Anthology deals force damage? It's not explicitly mentioned, unlike let's say spiritual weapon.

[CBDunkerson]

"School evocation [force]"
"Effect one sword-shaped weapon of force"
"You create a +1 longsword of pure force"

So... yes, it's a force effect.

[lemeres]

I would say the primary reason for this spell's existence is a "oh no, a ghost showed up and we don't have ghost touch yet. Well, this will do".

I am sure there are likely some other advantages (is it affected by toppling spell metamagic?), but I think its primary use is "this is a force effect- useful for situations where force effects apply".

[Pizza Lord]

It's a +1 longsword in all ways as though you conjured a longsword from a special material.

The force sword is a force effect and it does do force damage (for pretty much any purpose I can think of) but it does not bypass DR because, looking at its description, Force doesn't appear to do so, and because it doesn't strike as a spell (despite the SR chance against the first attack) although the SR chance is the only possible gray area that I have in my ruling.

It's a longsword made of force that does 1d8+1 base damage but is modified by the wielder's own skill and strength, not any magical effects otherwise. It won't work any better against a skeleton than a typical +1 longsword but it will work against incorporeal and ethereal creatures, as well as those only damaged by force, better than a typical +1 longsword.

[soul31]

It was used to completely one hit decapitate schir with lvl 3 barbarian. We thought it was a force damage because it's "sword made from pure force" and it bypassed his dr/good. It seems we need developer opinion on this... Is this force damage or not, and why the spell was worded as it was.

[Pizza Lord]

It's definitely force damage. The damage does not bypass DR/good though. A being made of pure force does not make it a vorpal weapon or allow you to decapitate an enemy any easier than normal.

If it was a sword of pure ice it wouldn't necessarily do cold damage (Though in all fairness it could add 1 or 2 points of cold damage in addition to its weapon damage). Such a weapon would bypass DR/ice, but similarly, a Protection from Cold spell would not stop the longsword damage just because it was made of ice.

[Slithery D]

If it's force damage it's not subject to any DR (only hardness). But if it's force damage it's also not blunt, piercing, or slashing damage, so it's not actually a sword in this case, it would more a light saber type effect. I therefore conclude that it is a sword that does slashing damage and not force damage. The fact that it is made of force may have some implications for dispelling or destroying the sword, but does not mean it does force damage.

[Gilfalas]

Slithery D wrote:

If it's force damage it's not subject to any DR (only hardness). But if it's force damage it's also not blunt, piercing, or slashing damage,...

This is correct. Magical Force is it's own damage type not subject to DR or Energy Resistance. It is the same damage done by magic missles for example and they are not stopped by DR.

If the spell said it did slashing or crushing or piercing damage then DR would apply. Since it clearly stated magical force several times it does full on everything.

Frome the magic section:

Quote:

Force: Spells with the force descriptor create or manipulate magical force. Force spells affect incorporeal creatures normally (as if they were corporeal creatures).

From the Damage Resistance Section:

Quote:

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.

In the end the sword shape magical force is a spell result and very magic.

[Pizza Lord]

I see nowhere that says force damage bypasses DR. I see nothings that says [force] counts as an energy attack. I see fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic. At best, you might be able to include positive or negative energies as well.

Gilfalas wrote:

If the spell said it did slashing or crushing or piercing damage then DR would apply.

The spell actually says absolutely nothing about damage. It says it makes a +1 longsword. A longsword does slashing damage. So your longsword made from force sword does slashing damage that is also force. It will bypass DR/slashing or DR/magic or DR/force if something has that. If it were a mace of pure force, it would deal bludgeoning. This is no different than if the spell created a +1 longsword made from adamantine. It would deal slashing damage and count as adamantine.

Quote:

In the end the sword shape magical force is a spell result and very magic.

This statement is absolutely true while also being absolutely misleading and incorrect in this case. The longsword created by force sword is a spell result and it is very magic, but that does not mean it counts as a spell for damage purposes. A summoned monster from a summon monster spell is a 'spell result' and is 'very magic' but that doesn't mean it bypasses DR when it hits.

The only way the longsword bypasses DR is if you can have someone prove that the sword attacks as a spell, not a spell effect, like spiritual weapon or clenched fist. Or if you can prove that force is an energy type.

[Jeraa]

Pizza Lord wrote:

I see nowhere that says force damage bypasses DR. I see nothings that says [force] counts as an energy attack. I see fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic. At best, you might be able to include positive or negative energies as well.

The only place that I am aware of is in the rules for performance combat.

Quote:

Energy Spells and Effects: Crowds tend to respond to flashy spells and effects. If a combatant casts a spell or produces an effect that deals acid, cold, fire, electricity, force, or sonic damage in a visible way (including weapons with special abilities like flaming burst or shocking burst that deal bursts of energy damage on critical hits), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action.

Hardly definitive, but it does lump force damage in with energy damage.

[Pizza Lord]

I agree it's hardly definitive but it was definitely something to bring up. To me it looks like that listing is more about flashy spell effects and how a crowd might respond to them than in actually defining an energy type. Seems like the heading could have just as easily been 'Flashy Spells and Effects'.

I hope I don't sound too stubborn or close-minded if I'm not convinced that an optional method for staged combat counts as stating force is an energy just because it mentions how much crowds like flashy spells. I might ask for a slightly more definite statement that force is or is not an energy type.

[CBDunkerson]

Jeraa wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

I see nowhere that says force damage bypasses DR. I see nothings that says [force] counts as an energy attack. I see fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic. At best, you might be able to include positive or negative energies as well.

The only place that I am aware of is in the rules for performance combat.

Quote:

Energy Spells and Effects: Crowds tend to respond to flashy spells and effects. If a combatant casts a spell or produces an effect that deals acid, cold, fire, electricity, force, or sonic damage in a visible way (including weapons with special abilities like flaming burst or shocking burst that deal bursts of energy damage on critical hits), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action.

Hardly definitive, but it does lump force damage in with energy damage.

Also;

Quote:

(Magus) Energy Attunement (Su): At 5th level, as a free action, a magus can spend a point of his black blade's arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: cold, electricity, or fire. He can spend 2 points from the black blade's arcane pool to deal sonic or force damage instead of weapon damage. This effect lasts until the start of the magus's next turn.

I think such references are rare because there are also many ways in which Force is NOT an 'energy' effect (e.g. no 'energy resistance' against it, can't swap it for other 'energy types' with abilities that allow such, et cetera).

That said, the default assumption with spells is that they ignore both DR and energy resistance unless stated to be a type of damage which is subject to one or the other. Magic Missile ignores DR not specifically because it is a force effect, but simply because it is a spell. Just as damage from Black Tenacles, Phantasmal Killer, Mind Thrust, Word of Chaos and numerous others spells is also untyped 'spell' damage.

The question with Force Sword then becomes whether it should be considered like an actual sword doing slashing damage or like other spells doing 'spell' damage. Given that most 'force weapon' spells (i.e. all of them I could find on a quick search) follow the latter convention, my first guess would be that Force Sword should as well... and thus not be subject to DR.

[Fourshadow]

When in doubt, default to the precedent already set: Spiritual weapon for instance.

Force sword is a very nice and useful spell.

[Val'bryn2]

Personally, from reading the spell, I think it deals slashing damage, as a normal longsword, but since it is a force effect, it would still be effective against incorporeal creatures.