Multi-Class for Diplomacy?


Advice


I'm playing a level 7 Human switch hitting Ranger. Stats STR 19, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 7 with gear. He's highly combat focused with skills loaded for survival, tracking, Animals and IDing enemies. The group also has a Harrow Sorceror with high diplomacy/bluff, a tanky gnome monk with creative item utilization, and sometimes a poisoner rogue with low perception and no trap skills at all (ugh).

The home brew campaign I'm in has progressed from a lot of outdoors/wilderness, to a LOT of city-based scenarios, diplomatic endeavors, politics, investigations, etc.

I currently have nothing for social skills and it's an enormous pain in the ass. I want to pick up diplomacy and a few other skills without sacrificing much offensive ability (I contribute well over 50% of my groups DPR)

My current considerations:
1 level dip into Urban Barbarian
2 level dip into Rogue
3 level dip into Sniper Slayer + Influend trait for diplomacy and Mark of Slavery negative
OR - stay full ranger and just take the traits

Barb nets me crowd fighting bonus and diplomacy with a nice controlled rage when I go into melee.

Rogue gives me trapfinding (which our group doesn't have), skills, and diplomacy with an SA die, but costs me BAB progression

Sniper Slayer + traits keeps me full BAB, works well for RP and gives a 110ft bow sneak attack with an immediate action Study, as well as the rogue trap talents at second level, but it delays my favored enemy/terrain bonuses.

What would you guys do? Or is there a better option I'm not considering?


Personally I'm a big fan of single-classing. Some more specific comments:

Getting Diplomacy as a class skill is nice but not fantastic; the extra skill ranks to pump into it are what you really need, rangers almost have that maxed, and even a dip into rogue won't help with it much. What have you been putting your FCBs into?

Has your GM ok'd you taking an extra trait + drawback at this late date? RAW you can only do that during character creation. However, if you have a spare feat you could take Additional Traits, getting two extra traits with no extra drawbacks.

If you just want a social skill but not necessarily Diplomacy I would go with Intimidate, as Intimidating Prowess will let your Str make up for your dumped Cha, and as it's a class skill for you already. Also it sounds like Intimidate is the social skill your party is missing.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Personally I'm a big fan of single-classing. Some more specific comments:

Getting Diplomacy as a class skill is nice but not fantastic; the extra skill ranks to pump into it are what you really need, rangers almost have that maxed, and even a dip into rogue won't help with it much. What have you been putting your FCBs into?

Has your GM ok'd you taking an extra trait + drawback at this late date? RAW you can only do that during character creation. However, if you have a spare feat you could take Additional Traits, getting two extra traits with no extra drawbacks.

If you just want a social skill but not necessarily Diplomacy I would go with Intimidate, as Intimidating Prowess will let your Str make up for your dumped Cha, and as it's a class skill for you already. Also it sounds like Intimidate is the social skill your party is missing.

To answer your questions:

My GM is open and more flexible with the rules, not a RAW stickler. He would probably let me add the traits, especially as influence at this later date fits - we've gone from immigrant nobodies to semi-known adventurers & heroes, bartered trade agreements/treaties, and have been deputized by a few sheriffs to act as law authority. Mark of slavery fits my character backstory perfectly, and a recent event caused him to get his long hair cut, revealing a "branding" tattoo on his face.

But the GM is, for lack of better word, ruthless. "Negative" actions like Intimidate often come with bad consequences, and I have to make a lot of diplomacy checks, even in basic role play conversations. and they're all at a -2. Even if I role play it well and he gives me a minor bonus, the die rolls crush me.

My FCBs have been going to HP.


The other benefit for rogue/slayer is getting trapfinding, but I suppose a 10' pole can work often enough.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also -- there are several traits that make Diplomacy a class skill. See also the Cosmopolitan feat -- it is much better than a level dip in another class in most cases. As I recall, Cosmopolitan gives you two skills modified by mental ability scores as class skills along with two additional languages.


If you happen to worship Sarenrae, take Illuminator instead of Influence to get a net +5 instead of +4 to Diplomacy. If you take two traits (whether via Additional Traits or adding two drawbacks) get Clever Wordplay so you can use Int instead of Cha for another +2. If you decide to take a trait and a drawback and Additional Traits, add in Amiable Blunder so you can retry a badly failed Diplomacy roll 1/day.

Since your GM makes Diplomacy a must-have, I would start taking skill ranks instead of HP as your FCBs.


You could always just take Skill Focus: Diplomacy.

Sure, it costs a Feat, but it provides the same (and even better after scaling with 10 ranks) bonus as having a class skill, and you get all the benefits of keeping single classed.


The side benefits of multi-classing were to pick up trapfinding, but we have made it this far without it. Though we've been slammed by a few traps.


Vigilante can get +4 at level one with the Social Graces social talent.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We don't know much about the personality of the character, so this is just working the mechanics. If one of these fits the personality much better than others, I would say go with that.

If you are starting to get slammed by traps, either Slayer or Unchained Rogue would be my suggestions. The rogue would also give you a boost to skill points so you could catch up on those pesky charisma skills. :)

If you are really liking everything else Ranger gives, look at either the Additional Traits or Cosmopolitan feats. It is probably better to use a feat than take a drawback.

Urban Bloodrager for two levels would also give you Uncanny Dodge, so you keep that +3 Dex bonus when surprised. It also gives you a good list of spells to use as wands including Shield.

Sovereign Court

Makknus wrote:
The side benefits of multi-classing were to pick up trapfinding, but we have made it this far without it. Though we've been slammed by a few traps.

Trap-finding after 2 levels in rogue would only give you +1 to finding traps. It's main effect is being able to disable magical ones.


BretI wrote:

We don't know much about the personality of the character, so this is just working the mechanics. If one of these fits the personality much better than others, I would say go with that.

If you are starting to get slammed by traps, either Slayer or Unchained Rogue would be my suggestions. The rogue would also give you a boost to skill points so you could catch up on those pesky charisma skills. :)

If you are really liking everything else Ranger gives, look at either the Additional Traits or Cosmopolitan feats. It is probably better to use a feat than take a drawback.

Urban Bloodrager for two levels would also give you Uncanny Dodge, so you keep that +3 Dex bonus when surprised. It also gives you a good list of spells to use as wands including Shield.

Brief character personality - former slave, raised to be hunted for sport, but he killed his master and fled the rest of the family: Inspired by Ronon Dex from Stargate Atlantis. He was on the run for years, never staying anywhere too long, which lead him to be a survivalist and anti social. Now he's settling in a town and trying to figure out how to survive in civilization, keep his friends alive, and protect more than just himself.


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It seems to me that your character then wouldn't have Diplomacy. He would have Intimidate. While yes your DM could try to make that work against you, everything in your background screams a guy that works by the strength of himself not the rules of society. With a high enough Intimidate (possible as there's feats that allow Str instead of charisma) you could really make people think twice about coming back for seconds.

In the case where a lighter touch is needed you can defer to a comrade. Making everyone suddenly need a skill you shouldn't have seems rather pushing you down a path you don't want to go down.

There's a few social skill and Intimidate is one. Talk to him before that and let him know one skill is within your bounds of background the other is not.


Cavall wrote:

It seems to me that your character then wouldn't have Diplomacy. He would have Intimidate. While yes your DM could try to make that work against you, everything in your background screams a guy that works by the strength of himself not the rules of society. With a high enough Intimidate (possible as there's feats that allow Str instead of charisma) you could really make people think twice about coming back for seconds.

In the case where a lighter touch is needed you can defer to a comrade. Making everyone suddenly need a skill you shouldn't have seems rather pushing you down a path you don't want to go down.

There's a few social skill and Intimidate is one. Talk to him before that and let him know one skill is within your bounds of background the other is not.

True, for his background he would not have Diplomacy, which is why I haven't trained it yet. But he's been settled in a town, is trying to make friends, and has been learning societal norms and social queues. there was a major event where his lack of diplomatic ability and reliance on strength inadvertently lead to the destruction of an entire town, so he's trying to change his ways a bit. I should have included that in my previous post.


Well... intimidates more the threat of action rather than the action itself. Which makes it really valid as an option still.

Wanting to do better and having a way to express it are different, after all.

Still. A whole town? Damn son.


Cavall wrote:

Well... intimidates more the threat of action rather than the action itself. Which makes it really valid as an option still.

Wanting to do better and having a way to express it are different, after all.

Still. A whole town? Damn son.

An Orc tribe took captive one of our party members... And I may have killed their blind, diplomatic elder on a raid to get him back. They tracked us to a town and torched it at night.


Well. Lesson learned. Orcs don't do half measure.


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Makknus wrote:
True, for his background he would not have Diplomacy, which is why I haven't trained it yet. But he's been settled in a town, is trying to make friends, and has been learning societal norms and social queues. there was a major event where his lack of diplomatic ability and reliance on strength inadvertently lead to the destruction of an entire town, so he's trying to change his ways a bit. I should have included that in my previous post.

I would say Slayer works well for this. Distrustful of people, but now sees the usefulness of diplomacy. Thinks of it as being similar to stealth for hunting -- don't want to warn the prey.


If you were to take a level of Cleric you could grab the Reformation Inquisition to base Diplomacy off of WIS, which could be a pretty thematic way to be low-charisma diplomatic. Cleric has all kinds of other possible one-level grabs, and using Separatist lets you grab any second domain you like with any deity you want. There are a few of useful Domain Powers with one level, like Repose letting you stagger a creature with a no-save touch attack several times a day, or Travel granting +10 movement and another +10 with Longstrider, plus a power for ignoring difficult terrain.

If your group runs the game in a way that makes using buff spells easy, taking the Fate's Favored trait would get you +2 Divine Favor at level 1, which is a nice little bonus as well.


BretI wrote:

We don't know much about the personality of the character, so this is just working the mechanics. If one of these fits the personality much better than others, I would say go with that.

If you are starting to get slammed by traps, either Slayer or Unchained Rogue would be my suggestions. The rogue would also give you a boost to skill points so you could catch up on those pesky charisma skills. :)

If you are really liking everything else Ranger gives, look at either the Additional Traits or Cosmopolitan feats. It is probably better to use a feat than take a drawback.

Urban Bloodrager for two levels would also give you Uncanny Dodge, so you keep that +3 Dex bonus when surprised. It also gives you a good list of spells to use as wands including Shield.

Quick question here, more for rules knowledge than this character specifically - If I dipped Bloodrager, would I get access to the bloodline spells only if I reached that level of Bloodrager, if I reached that level of caster, or if I reached that character level and then be restricted by level of spells I'm able to cast/spells per day I can cast?

The Exchange

If want multi-class -suggest Investigator since it gets Inspiration for diplomacy (and other skill checks), alchemy, and trapfinding. Diplomacy is now a class skill with 6+ skill points


I think either Skill Focus or Cosmopolitan as feats would be your best bet here. Skill Focus, as noted earlier, gives the same bonus as having it a class skill, while Cosmo gives you two mental skills (in case you wanted to pick up, say, Spellcraft or something). Both would of course be your ex-slave really really REALLY hitting the social training HARD.

But sometimes your best social skill is to be the thug in the corner glaring menacingly while your smooth-talker smooth talks. A famous diplomat did say one should speak softly and carry an earthbreaker, or something like that. One note, does anyone in the group have Intimidate? I've only played martial sorts, and there have been times when asking nicely by our party face failed, and I ended up going all-caps typing out my response to the NPC ... with success. It's not a skill you use all the time, but sometimes you have to, in the words of a famed character, speak LOUDLY and carry a BIGGER STICK!.

(And you use it too! *WHONK*)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, best way to sky rocket your diplomacy with a one level dip: Infiltrator Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition. Put your level 8 stat increase into WIS, and buy a +2 Headband, and you will get an immediate boost of +11 without needing to invest a ton of skill ranks. +3 from the class skill, +5 from switching diplomacy from CHA to WIS, and another +3 from adding your WIS again. You'll also get a bump to your will and Fort saves, access to judgement once a day and a couple Inquisitor spells (plus usage of Inquisitor wands without UMD!), at the cost of a point of BAB and delaying access to instant enemy. You'll also still get 6 skill ranks, and a host of other great class skills which you can stick a rank in.

Inquisitors have a lot of similarities to Rangers, so it's not a big jump. You might be better off going full Ranger and just using feats, but Inquisitor will get you the largest immediate boost.

Edit: You could also use the guilt of causing that town slaughter as a role playing justification for finding religion.


Take the extra trait feat and get traits that give the desired skills as class skills


Are you allowed to double-dip wisdom on a diplomacy check with Infiltrator, or would that be FAQ forbidden?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
BadBird wrote:
Are you allowed to double-dip wisdom on a diplomacy check with Infiltrator, or would that be FAQ forbidden?

It's a tad bit sketchy. Most people I know of allow it, but I could see a DM not allowing the ability score twice under that one FAQ. But once is replacing the Normal score, and the other is a bonus.

That said, if they don't stack, that just means you can use a different archetype or inquisiton and the bonus to your diplomacy is still +8. You can use monster lore to get WIS monster knowledge checks, or Rage domain for extra damage, etc.


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Makknus wrote:
BretI wrote:
Urban Bloodrager for two levels would also give you Uncanny Dodge, so you keep that +3 Dex bonus when surprised. It also gives you a good list of spells to use as wands including Shield.
Quick question here, more for rules knowledge than this character specifically - If I dipped Bloodrager, would I get access to the bloodline spells only if I reached that level of Bloodrager, if I reached that level of caster, or if I reached that character level and then be restricted by level of spells I'm able to cast/spells per day I can cast?

With a single level of Bloodrager, you are able to trigger wands for any spell on your spell list. You don't need to be able to cast them. The same is true for rangers and paladins.


Don't think there's a double dip on wisdom allowed, no. So many examples of what doesn't work is mirrored in that double dip. It would be harder to argue for it than against it in the current state of FAQ


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Which, again, is fine. Just take vanilla Inquisitor with Conversion. You still get +5 more to diplomacy over any other dip, and +3 to your monster knowledge. It's still amazing for the stated purpose.


Or a Cleric with the Conversion or Reformation Inquisition if you want to pick up a bonus feat from Crusader or a second Domain pick like Travel or Defense or whatever.


If all you want to do is to is to pick up a few social skills why not just pick up the social skills. There is nothing in the rules that state you cannot put more than one rank into a skill when you level up. Rangers have plenty of skill points so at your level you could put +6(+7 with favored class bonus to skill) skill points into diplomacy when you hit 8th level. When you hit 9th level use your feat to pick up diplomacy and maybe another social skill as a class skill.

I would also see about retraining your favored class bonus to skill points instead of HP. If you did that you could actually max out diplomacy at your current level. Going from a -2 diplomacy to a +5 is a pretty big jump, but if he is really trying to learn better social skills that is not that unreasonable.

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