... maybe let barbarians have Con to AC...By any chance, have you been playing 5e?
I've picked up the book. The group I'm in is in Pathfinder, so that's what I know better, but ... yeah, I like the concept.
="My Self"]Although constitution to AC while armored would be overpowered. Considering that Barbarians have an innate CON boost (which would at least cancel out the AC penalty), giving Barbarians this ability in armor would turn them from "easy to hit, but takes hits well" into "impossible to hit, impossible to hurt". As problematic as Monk AC is at low levels, they at least have the compensation that their passive defenses become very good at high levels. Giving Barbarians this would make their AC pretty good at low levels and insane at high levels (although *maybe* compensated for by not having access to the beast totem).
Our group also went Unchained, so I haven't been thinking of rage bonuses to Constitution.
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How about dialing back on the condescending responses?
Oooookay, you don't want to nerf, you just want to "change" and keep them equal.
How are you editing Rangers? Paladins? Anti-Paladins? Cavaliers? Samurai? Gunslingers? Brawlers? Swashbucklers? Slayers? Bloodragers? UnMonk? Avenger Vigilante?
You're wanting to completely redo all these classes because you only think the Fighter should have Full BaB instead of just simply buffing the Fighter. Why?
sorry about the... "condescending responses" but when i ask sommat and say sommat i kinda hope that IF... IF you intend on answering you will read my question.
I've lost track now how many times I've stated same things over and over again. That is all - apologies for my short temper.Go search the forums you will find VERY few responses of me because very little here interests me. But when i want to contribute I stay on topic and not ask same thing over and over again.....
What exactly do you want to accomplish by changing the barbarian?
I honestly feel like the barbarian leans more on underpowered. They're absolutely amazing combatants early on, but stabbing things is pretty much the only thing they do. Nearly all of their class features are locked behind rage powers, most of them just providing passive buffs and making rage a little better. Even rage won't improve until 11th level, when most campaigns will wind to a close. As a result, there's very little incentive to play a straight barbarian and a straight barbarian quickly gets dull.
I had one crazy idea that might make them a little more interesting while not affecting their power ceiling too much. What if they could retrain all their rage powers at the start of the day?
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Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
Just wanted to reference this coz it seems like some people missed it.
Morlaf, are you still thinking of changing the BAB or have you decided just to change rage powers etc?
As you ask, this is what i have decided:
Barb BAB = 3/4.in my Caveman session only fighters have BAB = 1.
Barbarians get Rage for free which is a feat that any1 can have (Str and BAB pre-requisits exist).
But as an option they can enter a Warp Spasm (which will be called something else, so as to not further offend the creators of Slaine). This will grant further bonuses in combat (the specifics I shall not bore you with). Some the player will choose so as to allow Character Customisation. Others will be rolled randomly, as the Gift of Mother Nature attempting to protect its Chosen One is, in part, uncontrollable.
A round of Warp Spasm costs 2 (or more) rounds of Rage and at the end the Barbarian is left a lot worse off than simply "Fatigued".
But I've talked too much already.
Thank you all again for your contributions.
Are there spellcasters in your campaign?
Like I said, I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.
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Are there spellcasters in your campaign?
Like I said, I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.
Spellcasters: yes. Druids (druids) and Shamans (sorcerers). Clerics exists but they are an NPC which you should best try and keep in the good books of. Their power comes from having a congregation and hallowed location (temple/church/cave). Roaming about adventuring offers none of this. but it's nice to keep them friendly as they can VERY powerful.
Accomplish: A more primal feel. Cavemen. The whole world is called Savages of San Rith. Humans exist with dinosaurs, violent tectonic movements, volcanoes worshiped as gods, very little written form (mostly runes), very few large cities, all weapons are Fragile (with VERY few exceptions), little magic (At least what I call Vulgar Magic - i.e. in-your-face, flamboyant, chain-lightning type spells).
Pathfinder caters for all this VERY satisfactorily with few tweaks.
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As you ask, this is what i have decided:
Barb BAB = 3/4.
in my Caveman session only fighters have BAB = 1.
Barbarians get Rage for free which is a feat that any1 can have (Str and BAB pre-requisits exist).
But as an option they can enter a Warp Spasm (which will be called something else, so as to not further offend the creators of Slaine). This will grant further bonuses in combat (the specifics I shall not bore you with). Some the player will choose so as to allow Character Customisation. Others will be rolled randomly, as the Gift of Mother Nature attempting to protect its Chosen One is, in part, uncontrollable.
A round of Warp Spasm costs 2 (or more) rounds of Rage and at the end the Barbarian is left a lot worse off than simply "Fatigued".
There is a problem looking at this from a mechanical perspective. Medium BAB in pathfinder tends to go with a LOT of goodies. At the very least, every single feature that rogues and the like get. Even then, pre-unchained rogues and monks were bad enough that they had to be changed. Right now, if I remember correctly unchained rogues are the only non-magical class with medium BAB, and people tend to rate them fairly low. So yeah, for a combat class, medium BAB is kind of a huge deal. Classes that go with medium BAB and are seen as good (not OP) tend to have level 6 spells and then something extra (bardic mojo, eidolons, inquisitor tricks, etc).
You can tweak the game as you want, and I am not going to tell you you are WRONG and should NEVER do this. However, if you want to have a balanced barbarian class with medium BAB, you want what they get to compare well to everything a bard, inquisitor, hunter or shaman will get, spells included, and at least to all things an unchained rogue ever gets (I say at least, because the unchained rogue is sort of meh as well). Otherwise, barbarians will be unnecessarily weak in the game and a trap option for the players who want to try them - they will come in expecting to be cool and awesome and find out most everyone does their job better.
Look at it this way. Sell me on the barbarian class. Show me how it is better at being the nature's champion than a ranger, a combat-oriented druid or a hunter. I am not just talking fluff, I am talking how I can translate this fluff in the game.
As you ask, this is what i have decided:
Barb BAB = 3/4.
in my Caveman session only fighters have BAB = 1.
Barbarians get Rage for free which is a feat that any1 can have (Str and BAB pre-requisits exist).
But as an option they can enter a Warp Spasm (which will be called something else, so as to not further offend the creators of Slaine). This will grant further bonuses in combat (the specifics I shall not bore you with). Some the player will choose so as to allow Character Customisation. Others will be rolled randomly, as the Gift of Mother Nature attempting to protect its Chosen One is, in part, uncontrollable.
A round of Warp Spasm costs 2 (or more) rounds of Rage and at the end the Barbarian is left a lot worse off than simply "Fatigued".
There is a problem looking at this from a mechanical perspective. Medium BAB in pathfinder tends to go with a LOT of goodies. At the very least, every single feature that rogues and the like get. Even then, pre-unchained rogues and monks were bad enough that they had to be changed. Right now, if I remember correctly unchained rogues are the only non-magical class with medium BAB, and people tend to rate them fairly low. So yeah, for a combat class, medium BAB is kind of a huge deal. Classes that go with medium BAB and are seen as good (not OP) tend to have level 6 spells and then something extra (bardic mojo, eidolons, inquisitor tricks, etc).
You can tweak the game as you want, and I am not going to tell you you are WRONG and should NEVER do this. However, if you want to have a balanced barbarian class with medium BAB, you want what they get to compare well to everything a bard, inquisitor, hunter or shaman will get, spells included, and at least to all things an unchained rogue ever gets (I say at least, because the unchained rogue is sort of meh as well). Otherwise, barbarians will be unnecessarily weak in the game and a trap option for the players who want to try them - they will come in expecting to be cool and awesome...
This is basically what I wanted to say, but nothing I thought of came out as not sounding negative, and I wasn't trying to be the negative guy.
Thanks for wording this request better than I could.
There is a problem looking at this from a mechanical perspective. Medium BAB in pathfinder tends to go with a LOT of goodies. At the very least, every single feature that rogues and the like get. Even then, pre-unchained rogues and monks were bad enough that they had to be changed. Right now, if I remember correctly unchained rogues are the only non-magical class with medium BAB, and people tend to rate them fairly low. So yeah, for a combat class, medium BAB is kind of a huge deal. Classes that go with medium BAB and are seen as good (not OP) tend to have level 6 spells and then something extra (bardic mojo, eidolons, inquisitor tricks, etc).
You can tweak the game as you want, and I am not going to tell you you are WRONG and should NEVER do this. However, if you want to have a balanced barbarian class with medium BAB, you want what they get to compare well to everything a bard, inquisitor, hunter or shaman will get, spells included, and at least to all things an unchained rogue ever gets (I say at least, because the unchained rogue is sort of meh as well). Otherwise, barbarians will be unnecessarily weak, and a trap option for the players who want to try them. Being a warrior and a martial champion with medium BAB is fairly...
That's a pretty interesting idea actually - I kind of like the idea of a flavor-heavy barbarian who gets all sorts of goodies in the form of class features and such. Maybe the variant could have a lot more in the form of battlefield control? I imagine a screaming savage swinging with little to no regard for their safety would have quite a bit of opportunity to control the flow of the battlefield. Added to that, I think a medium BAB class with a d12 hit die could just be beyond fun.
Morlaf - that could be one way to simultaneously fix the 'problem' of barbarians getting full BAB, if that's what you were going for. It would require you to put a lot of work in, but if you are comfortable going that route I think a flavorful, extremely option-heavy rager class could be a blast for players. Up to you, naturally.
That being said, I would like to say that if your intention is to fix a perceived balance issue, you're aiming in the wrong place. Barbarians would only suffer for the BAB change, for reasons that Cyrad elucidated (By the way, Cyrad's idea for retraining rage powers is endlessly intriguing). If your intent is simply to tweak the game to make it fit the setting you're running better, fantastic! Balance need not be considered as heavily, if you're a good GM. You're the GM after all, and what you say goes. If you can keep your players entertained and the world consistent with such tweaks - regardless of the class's 'actual' balance with RAW classes, then go for it.
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As you ask, this is what i have decided:
Barb BAB = 3/4.
in my Caveman session only fighters have BAB = 1.
Barbarians get Rage for free which is a feat that any1 can have (Str and BAB pre-requisits exist).
But as an option they can enter a Warp Spasm (which will be called something else, so as to not further offend the creators of Slaine). This will grant further bonuses in combat (the specifics I shall not bore you with). Some the player will choose so as to allow Character Customisation. Others will be rolled randomly, as the Gift of Mother Nature attempting to protect its Chosen One is, in part, uncontrollable.
A round of Warp Spasm costs 2 (or more) rounds of Rage and at the end the Barbarian is left a lot worse off than simply "Fatigued".
There is a problem looking at this from a mechanical perspective. Medium BAB in pathfinder tends to go with a LOT of goodies. At the very least, every single feature that rogues and the like get. Even then, pre-unchained rogues and monks were bad enough that they had to be changed. Right now, if I remember correctly unchained rogues are the only non-magical class with medium BAB, and people tend to rate them fairly low. So yeah, for a combat class, medium BAB is kind of a huge deal. Classes that go with medium BAB and are seen as good (not OP) tend to have level 6 spells and then something extra (bardic mojo, eidolons, inquisitor tricks, etc).
You can tweak the game as you want, and I am not going to tell you you are WRONG and should NEVER do this. However, if you want to have a balanced barbarian class with medium BAB, you want what they get to compare well to everything a bard, inquisitor, hunter or shaman will get, spells included, and at least to all things an unchained rogue ever gets (I say at least, because the unchained rogue is sort of meh as well). Otherwise, barbarians will be unnecessarily weak in the game and a trap option for the players who want to try them - they will come in expecting to be cool and awesome...
I've heard it all now: Fighters under-powered, Barbarians under-powered, Rogues under-powered.... and that is just a few posts in this silly thread. point is, if you ask 100 ppl you will get 100 DIFFERENT opinions.
I've got NO intention of "selling" you my barbarians or my setting or anything else.As I have only recently decided on the path I wish to follow I do not have the full facts yet. But the Barbarian can enter a Warp Spasm, while in Rage and he will get boring things like:
Darkvision, increased speed.... Nice-ish things like: extra attacks, extra str, natural armour.... and Epic things like: increased size, area affects, Damage reduction, Fast healing etc. These will be level dependant and random.
The player will choose Path of Surrender in which case he gets more stuff but unpredictable or the Path of Reigns: where he attempts to harness mother nature and gets fewer stuff but has a better chance of controlling them.
To use a nomenclature I have only recently been aware of, they are becoming a more NOVA class. which brings me to: What is "unchained rogues" ?
The core rogue was so terrible, the developers gave us an apology in Pathfinder Unchained.
To reiterate what others have said, though you seemed fixed on doing this regardless of others opinions...
Yes, fighters, and rogues are underpowered. But remember, we're comparing them to what wizards can do.
Fighters can only ever really full attack and cause HP damage. There a re few options that can change that up, but they're not easy to get. Rogues are the same, but have to jump through hoops to deal decent damage.
Barbrians get a couple neat options built in with rage powers, and are generally regarded as being one of the best, if not the best martial class. But they're still considered to be weaker than anything with serious spell casting.
So yes, robbing the barbarian of his BAB is a big deal, and the way you want to replace it wont balance it out to be a fun class.
@ Morlaf - You will often hear several classes mentioned as underpowers, and usually it is only classes with no or level 4 spellcasting. Conversely, all level 9 casters are seen as quite strong. This issue tends to emerge at medium levels and only gets more pronounced.
BTW, almost everything you mentioned as extra attacks, size etc is what a druid gets with wild shape. True, they start at level 4, but that isn't all that late. However, their bonuses are chosen by them, have long duration and do not cripple them later. That is just one of their features. If what your barbarian gets can match all of wild shape, the animal companion, all the druid features and, say, level 4 spellcasting, great. It would be a solid class. If not, well, you have something to work on in order to make it appealing for players.
The unchained rogue is an update of the rogue class in the Pathfinder unchained book. This book buffs rogues and monks, somewhat changes barbarians, and nerfs summoners.
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Well, you've mentioned that you want a "caveman" feel to the campaign, but you haven't really shown how nerfing the Barbarian actually helps with that. Heck, if anything I'd ditch the Fighter completely and have the Barbarian/Ranger be the main martial classes, especially as they have the skill support to work in a primative, self reliant setting. (Admittedly I'd ditch the Fighter anyway, but that's just me.)
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I personally found no significant balance issues with any of the Core/Base classes. I tend to run/play a more freeform game where the rules and the number-crunching is a necessary evil to which we succumb rarely. Not the purpose of the game. I try to stear the game thusly, discouraging lengthy diatribes on "a +1 here, a +1 there, here a +1, there a +1 everywhere a +1".
My success to this end fluctuates wildly. It also drives some players away. Some, however, seem to like it.......
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I have a wheel I reinvented, it's not round, and I haven't tried it out yet, but it's way better than that other wheel.
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@ Morlaf - You will often hear several classes mentioned as underpowers, and usually it is only classes with no or level 4 spellcasting. Conversely, all level 9 casters are seen as quite strong. This issue tends to emerge at medium levels and only gets more pronounced.
BTW, almost everything you mentioned as extra attacks, size etc is what a druid gets with wild shape. True, they start at level 4, but that isn't all that late. However, their bonuses are chosen by them, have long duration and do not cripple them later. That is just one of their features. If what your barbarian gets can match all of wild shape, the animal companion, all the druid features and, say, level 4 spellcasting, great. It would be a solid class. If not, well, you have something to work on in order to make it appealing for players.
The unchained rogue is an update of the rogue class in the Pathfinder unchained book. This book buffs rogues and monks, somewhat changes barbarians, and nerfs summoners.
The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.
These are significantly weaker than a standard fighter.Compared to the barbarian I have in my little mind - they are totally lamentable.
Obviously you don't want feedback, I believe what you're looking for is "constructive compliments"
Hahahahahahahaha!.... wait! You're being serious!?!
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Obviously you don't want feedback, I believe what you're looking for is "constructive compliments"Or perhaps foolishly expecting ppl to stay on-topic?
That's kinda hard when you're being obtuse.
Being vague with simply saying you'll reduce the Barbarian's BaB and give them other stuff, it's not really possible to give actual feedback and not just opinions (though some posters have graciously done just that) when you don't lay out said other stuff for us to give actual feedback on.
Explain. EXACTLY. WHAT. You. Are. Doing.
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@ Morlaf - You will often hear several classes mentioned as underpowers, and usually it is only classes with no or level 4 spellcasting. Conversely, all level 9 casters are seen as quite strong. This issue tends to emerge at medium levels and only gets more pronounced.
BTW, almost everything you mentioned as extra attacks, size etc is what a druid gets with wild shape. True, they start at level 4, but that isn't all that late. However, their bonuses are chosen by them, have long duration and do not cripple them later. That is just one of their features. If what your barbarian gets can match all of wild shape, the animal companion, all the druid features and, say, level 4 spellcasting, great. It would be a solid class. If not, well, you have something to work on in order to make it appealing for players.
The unchained rogue is an update of the rogue class in the Pathfinder unchained book. This book buffs rogues and monks, somewhat changes barbarians, and nerfs summoners.
The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.
These are significantly weaker than a standard fighter.
Compared to the barbarian I have in my little mind - they are totally lamentable.
The druid also isn't specialized for combat like the fighter is. The druid can turn into a giant beast with 6 natural attacks (all at full BAB because primary natural attack), while they may not be specialized for it, they can give fighters a run for their money (assuming you build for it). But they also have spell casting to go with their wildshape.
But I digress, I feel you are set on your course as much as we have tried to provide advice and reason as to why this is unnecessary and undesirable change (from a player perspective).
I hope this works out for you, but I fear it will not. Good luck.
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Obviously you don't want feedback, I believe what you're looking for is "constructive compliments"Or perhaps foolishly expecting ppl to stay on-topic?That's kinda hard when you're being obtuse.
Being vague with simply saying you'll reduce the Barbarian's BaB and give them other stuff, it's not really possible to give actual feedback and not just opinions (though some posters have graciously done just that) when you don't lay out said other stuff for us to give actual feedback on.
Explain. EXACTLY. WHAT. You. Are. Doing.
Ppl have answered my post VERY early on without asking irrelevant questions. to them I was courteous and I grateful (see Mr. Charisma at the top and others). Others went off on bizarre tangents and asked the same questions over and over again, made assumptions which were not even hinted upon by myself and generally feel they should post a reply for the sake of doing it, rather than contributing. I have limited patience for them.
As for EXACTLY -- EXACTLY!!! -- specifying everything, that is impossible. I am world-building. Where do i start, where do I end?Fact is, Barbarians have now lost their +1 BAB and have gained NOVA abilities in flavour with a Feral, Slaine-like world.
I know inside you are dying, but it HAS happened.....
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I think you're conflating the worth of your world to us. :-)
He can't do that, he's too busy vaguely reinventing a wagon for his irregular shaped wheels.
He clearly doesn't want passengers. :-) unless they have constructive compliments.
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Ok, wow, seriously Dood?
You don't know where to start? That's what everyone else thought this thread was about and was for the most trying to help you. You'd at least notice that if you pulled your head out of your ass.
so....
you want pages and pages of SHPEEL about the world, how long a month lasts, the names of the 4 large cities, the Ornath the Octopus, the deities, the clan names, racial attributes, dinosaurs, how magic works, etc, etc.....so that you can tell me, in your opinion what compensates for a drop of BAB from 1 to 3/4?
if you gimme your email all attach a few files for you, but there are not for this thread. this thread is to spout abuse, right?
No, we want rules crunch. How do they wildshape, how long does it last, does it overcome damage resistance, can I stab someone with a daisy.
We don't give a s!$* when mating seasons are for the reticulated mongoose, or what people eat for Yaksmas or anything like that.
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Ok, wow, seriously Dood?
You don't know where to start? That's what everyone else thought this thread was about and was for the most trying to help you. You'd at least notice that if you pulled your head out of your ass.
so....
you want pages and pages of SHPEEL about the world, how long a month lasts, the names of the 4 large cities, the Ornath the Octopus, the deities, the clan names, racial attributes, dinosaurs, how magic works, etc, etc.....
so that you can tell me, in your opinion what compensates for a drop of BAB from 1 to 3/4?if you gimme your email all attach a few files for you, but there are not for this thread. this thread is to spout abuse, right?
No, because none of that (I'm operating under the assumption anyway...) applies to the Barbarian.
The. Barbarian.
Just. The. Barbarian.
What all are you doing to the Barbarian?
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You clearly (Rysky and Captain Yesterday) did not read from the beginning because these questions have been asked and answered....
You came late, you responded without reading the previous posts and thought I've infected every other thread on all the forums I might as well post sommat here, too, right?
go on, tell me some more about your square wheels.......
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You clearly (Rysky and Captain Yesterday) did not read from the beginningYes we have actually.
because these questions have been asked and answered....Only kinda sorta not really.
You came late,It'd be rude to finish before my partner.
you responded without reading the previous postsAgain, incorrect.
and thought I've infected every other thread on all the forums I might as well post sommat here, too, right?... dafuq? No, seriously, dafuq?
go on, tell me some more about your square wheels.......
Your square wheels actually. Which we can't. Because you won't tell us about them.
You keep saying they're going to get all kinds of [stuff], but you won't detail [stuff], and everytime you respond you say they're getting different [stuff].
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You clearly (Rysky and Captain Yesterday) did not read from the beginningYes we have actually.because these questions have been asked and answered....Only kinda sorta not really.You came late,It'd be rude to finish before my partner.you responded without reading the previous postsAgain, incorrect.and thought I've infected every other thread on all the forums I might as well post sommat here, too, right?... dafuq? No, seriously, dafuq?go on, tell me some more about your square wheels.......Your square wheels actually. Which we can't. Because you won't tell us about them.
You keep saying they're going to get all kinds of [stuff], but you won't detail [stuff], and everytime you respond you say they're getting different [stuff].
cool.... thanks.....
No one ever said the wheels were square.
The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.
These are significantly weaker than a standard fighter.
Compared to the barbarian I have in my little mind - they are totally lamentable.
The wild shape gives more than just combat abilities, however. It can give them mobility, special attacks, special senses, etc. It is also very long duration and does not debuff the character later, which you said you want to do for the barbarian. You also mentioned weapons and armor being fairly primitive, which makes wildshape even more valuable (since you can get several primary natural attacks at full BAB).
By itself, it might not be enough to eclipse the fighter, but it isn´t everything a druid can do. This is just one of the class features of a class that has a strong pet, full casting and other pretty nice features. The spells are a huge deal on their own - especially in a setting where technology and equipment are less developed. Casters can make their own weapons and powerups, martials need to have them.
This is the competition your barbarian must contend with. I was asking for you to "sell me" on it so you can also visualize its strong points and compare them to those of its direct competitors - many of whom, as I mentioned, have level 6 or 9 casting and extra features. This is why I said that if your barbarian has medium BAB, you should consider giving it something on the level of wild shape, the druid class features, an animal companion AND a bit of casting (if not the whole 9 levels - the druid is imo a very strong class).
If you have a more or less concrete table of what barbies get per level so we can actually give you feedback on THAT, I´d love to see it.
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The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.
These are significantly weaker than a standard fighter.
Compared to the barbarian I have in my little mind - they are totally lamentable.The wild shape gives more than just combat abilities, however. It can give them mobility, special attacks, special senses, etc. It is also very long duration and does not debuff the character later, which you said you want to do for the barbarian. You also mentioned weapons and armor being fairly primitive, which makes wildshape even more valuable (since you can get several primary natural attacks at full BAB).
On its own, it might not be enough to eclipse the fighter, but it isn´t everything a druid can do. This is just one of the class features of a class that has a strong pet, full casting and other features. This is the competition your barbarian must contend with. I was asking for you to "sell me" on it so you can also visualize its strong points and compare them to those of its direct competitors - many of whom, as I mentioned, have level 6 or 9 casting and extra features. This is a huge deal, especially in a setting where technology and equipment are less developed.
If you have a more or less concrete table of what barbies get per level so we can actually give you feedback on THAT, I´d love to see it.
I shall.
Talking more vaguely now (i like to annoy ppl, see!)if fighters are the opposite of a NOVA class, which would you say is the most NOVA in pathfinder? I'm going for Wizard, but.....
I've got NO intention of "selling" you my barbarians...
As I have only recently decided on the path I wish to follow I do not have the full facts yet. But the Barbarian can enter a Warp Spasm, while in Rage and he will get boring things like:
Darkvision, increased speed.... Nice-ish things like: extra attacks, extra str, natural armour.... and Epic things like: increased size, area affects, Damage reduction, Fast healing etc. These will be level dependant and random.
The player will choose Path of Surrender in which case he gets more stuff but unpredictable or the Path of Reigns: where he attempts to harness mother nature and gets fewer stuff but has a better chance of controlling them.
The part I bolded is you shooting yourself in the foot here. Because without explaining (or selling if you prefer) the changes you've made to the Barbarian in actual specific mechanical terms, we can't actually help you here. The part after the bold is what we want details on.
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The part I bolded is you shooting yourself in the foot here. Because without explaining (or selling if you prefer) the changes you've made to the Barbarian in actual specific mechanical terms, we can't actually help you here. The part after the bold is what we want details on.I've got NO intention of "selling" you my barbarians...
As I have only recently decided on the path I wish to follow I do not have the full facts yet. But the Barbarian can enter a Warp Spasm, while in Rage and he will get boring things like:
Darkvision, increased speed.... Nice-ish things like: extra attacks, extra str, natural armour.... and Epic things like: increased size, area affects, Damage reduction, Fast healing etc. These will be level dependant and random.
The player will choose Path of Surrender in which case he gets more stuff but unpredictable or the Path of Reigns: where he attempts to harness mother nature and gets fewer stuff but has a better chance of controlling them.
fair point.... sorry about the vagueness - it makes sense in my little head....
Sorry, I edited my stuff somewhat.
Alchemists with the right discovery can make full attacks with bombs, lobbing several attacks versus touch AC. The magus class can use its arcane pool to throw some pretty nasty empowered attacks a few times per day as well. Occultists and a few others iirc can do this for a while as well.
The weird thing is, for me a full caster throwing two spells per turn - one with a quicken spell (possibly with a rod of quicken to be able to fire it off without too many extra levels), the second empowered or persisted - is likely more powerful than either of the above in higher levels, and full casters can keep this up for a while. Sometimes, the briefest nova isn´t the strongest.
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Meat Mountain - Barbarian Archetype
The barbarian's mighty rage is only the height of an already massive power. The great exertions of the barbarian exercise the muscles and empower strength no mere fighter could match! Cower at such glorious might!
The meat mountain only has a 3/4 BAB but gains +2 STR at 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter (maximum +10 at 17th level).
Impressive Flex: At 2nd level, the meat mountain may flex impressively, adding his or her strength bonus to Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks. Yes, including handle animal and disguise, somehow. Flexing overcomes all. This replaces Uncanny Dodge.
Incredible Smash: At 2nd level, the meat mountain's first melee or thrown weapon attack each round while raging deals an additional 1d6 damage, plus 1d6 for every 2 levels thereafter. This replaces Rage Powers.
Fight Sense: Such a lust for battle attunes the meat mountain to any and all threats. The mere motion of steel through air incites a trembling of the thews! At 3rd level, the meat mountain gains blindsense 10 ft. plus 5 ft. every 3 levels thereafter. This replaces Trap Sense.
Tough It Out: At 5th level, the meat mountain adds his or her Constitution bonus to his or her saving throws while raging. This stacks with the existing bonus to Fortitude. This replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge.
For a caveman campaign, I'd put the slayer as the default martial over the fighter. The fighter is based around a world with access to manufactured weapons and large pieces of armor. A caveman would be almost armorless, with studded leather being about as good as it would get.
Meat Mountain - Barbarian Archetype
The barbarian's mighty rage is only the height of an already massive power. The great exertions of the barbarian exercise the muscles and empower strength no mere fighter could match! Cower at such glorious might!The meat mountain only has a 3/4 BAB but gains +2 STR at 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter (maximum +10 at 17th level).
Impressive Flex: At 2nd level, the meat mountain may flex impressively, adding his or her strength bonus to Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks. Yes, including handle animal and disguise, somehow. Flexing overcomes all. This replaces Uncanny Dodge.
Incredible Smash: At 2nd level, the meat mountain's first melee or thrown weapon attack each round while raging deals an additional 1d6 damage, plus 1d6 for every 2 levels thereafter. This replaces Rage Powers.
Fight Sense: Such a lust for battle attunes the meat mountain to any and all threats. The mere motion of steel through air incites a trembling of the thews! At 3rd level, the meat mountain gains blindsense 10 ft. plus 5 ft. every 3 levels thereafter. This replaces Trap Sense.
Tough It Out: At 5th level, the meat mountain adds his or her Constitution bonus to his or her saving throws while raging. This stacks with the existing bonus to Fortitude. This replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge.
As a former Arby's employee, the name of this archetype made me laugh a bit too much. Kudos you beautiful bastard.
Skin of Iron: Because your tempered flesh is hella tough. I was going to put 'Add Con to AC when wearing no armour' in there somewhere but I forgot. Oh well. Replace some other thing that you wanted to replace with that.
Skin of Iron: Because your tempered flesh is hella tough. I was going to put 'Add Con to AC when wearing no armour' in there somewhere but I forgot. Oh well. Replace some other thing that you wanted to replace with that.
Why do I get the impression that this rippling mass of mighty thews and liberal amounts of bronzer ought to have a class feature called 'fite me irl?'
Hello.
doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)
Full BAB is what defines a purely martial class. Cleric types simulate a warrior priest with their 3/4 BAB, but that's because they also have full spellcasting as a dominant feature.
Barbarians are a full bab class becuse they are trained to be competent warriors even when they're not foaming at the mouth. Your premise for making the change falls flat on it's face.
Make this change for Paladins and you turn into an essentially useless class when putting them up against enemies they can't smite.
Don't make this change for Paladins and making it for Barbarians only, is simply singling them out for reasons you can't back up.
Fighters do get their definition from both the extra amount of combat feats they get and the per level training in armor and weapons mastery. They remain the only class that can wear full armor at full speed without resort to magic.
Well, I do think the system works a lot better if fighters (and a few others) got their attack bonus even higher, to be honest. Besides, with the rules for fragile weapons, they are going to need it when they have to reach for a nearby big rock because their primary and secondary weapons just broke.