Ghost Touch Weapon Attacks Made By Incorporeal Creatures


Rules Questions


Hey All,

I'm trying to figure out how to resolve an attack made by a ghost with a ghost touch weapon against an incorporeal creature. From the following I would think that I would resolve all attacks as touch attacks

Quote:

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.

but at the same time the entry for ghost touch says that a weapon is both incorporeal and corporeal, so I'm not 100%.

Additionally, is it mentioned anywhere if incorporeal creatures get any stat as a bonus to damage (since they no longer have a strength score).


In my opinion it would do full damage from incorporeal creature to incorporeal creature.

On a side note, the description for ghost touch refers to a ghost "manifesting", and I don't believe Pathfinder ghosts do that like they did in Dungeons and Dragons.


The most important rule here is:
"A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons."

So the attacks are resolved as a normal attack, not a touch attack.

Additionally, from the incorporeal universal monster rule:
"An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus)."

Finally, unless they have the "ghost touch" enchantment, an incorporeal creature cannot normally manipulate any item or equipment, so they usually have no armor or shield bonus (though force effects are a way around this, a la mage armor)


kadance wrote:

The most important rule here is:

"A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons."

The above text tells how Ghost Touch weapons work when attacking an incorporeal creature, but it doesn't say how it works when an incorporeal creature is attacking a corporeal creature with a ghost touch weapon.

All we have is the following:

1) The ghost touch property doesn't specify how it works when the attack is made by an incorporeal creature. All that's specified is that an incorporeal creature can wield the weapons against corporeal creatures because the weapon counts as corporeal and incorporeal.

2) The Incorporeal quality says that all attacks made by incorporeal creatures ignore armor

Since the ghost touch rules don't call out anything specific, and the Incorporeal quality rules do, I would think that RAW the attack would be a touch attack.

Just my own opinion, but it seems that a ghost touch weapon attack counts as an incorporeal attack when wielded by an incorporeal being, and a corporeal attack when wielded by a corporeal creature.

kadance wrote:


Additionally, from the incorporeal universal monster rule:
"An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus)."

Finally, unless they have the "ghost touch" enchantment, an incorporeal creature cannot normally manipulate any item or equipment, so they usually have no armor or shield bonus (though force effects are a way around this, a la mage armor)

And I don't see how the above text has anything to do with the question.


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The below is my opinion on the matter, the rules don't clearly specify:

An incorporeal creatures ability to ignore armor/shields refers to the creatures natural attacks. If it is attacking in some other fashion it does not apply.

All the ghost touch property does is allow a weapon that cannot normally hurt an incorporeal creature do so (or allow it to do full damage instead of half from being magical only). In all other respects it is still a corporeal weapon. So an incorporeal creature wields it as a corporeal weapon, having to bypass normal AC, dealing normal damage, etc, with the added benefit that it could also be used to full effect against an incorporeal creature.

Or in other words, being ghost touch simply means the weapon can touch, and be touched by, incorporeal creatures. It does not change the weapon in any other aspect.


Yeah, I agree with bbangerter. The rule about ignoring armor/shields only applies to an incorporeal creatures natural attacks/unarmed strikes IMO because it's an the body of incorporeal creature that passes through normal material.

But the ghost touch weapon is a 100% a material weapon which in the hands of a normal human would not ignore armor. Handing it to a ghost shouldn't make a difference here, the physical weapon still has to get around the armor of the creature its attacking.


Agreed. Ghost Touch just lets a ghost (or other incorporeal creature) handle the otherwise perfectly normal weapon as if that creature were perfectly normal as well.

OP is asking about an incorporeal creature using a ghost touch weapon to attack another incorporeal creature. Basically, resolve it exactly the same way you would if a corporeal creature using the same ghost touch weapon attacked the incorporeal creature.

If it's an incorporeal creature attacking a corporeal creature with a ghost touch weapon, it resolves the same was as a corporeal creature's attack would using the same weapon.


Balshazar, the OP's question was

Amrel wrote:
how to resolve an attack made by a ghost with a ghost touch weapon against an incorporeal creature

(emphasis, mine), not a corporeal creature, which seems to be your take on it.


kadance wrote:
Balshazar, the OP's question was
Amrel wrote:
how to resolve an attack made by a ghost with a ghost touch weapon against an incorporeal creature
(emphasis, mine), not a corporeal creature, which seems to be your take on it.

The same way you'd handle an attack against an incorporeal creature with a ghost touch weapon wielded by a corporeal creature. The corporeality of the weapon wielder has no bearing on it.


kadance wrote:
Balshazar, the OP's question was
Amrel wrote:
how to resolve an attack made by a ghost with a ghost touch weapon against an incorporeal creature
(emphasis, mine), not a corporeal creature, which seems to be your take on it.

My bad, that was a typo on my part. I meant to ask about an incorporeal creature attacking a corporeal one.

The ghost touch weapon properties explicitly call out what happens when said weapon is used against a ghost, so I wasn't really confused about that.

I was curious about what happens if a ghost attacks a corporeal creature with it. My thoughts were simply that all the weapon says is that it can be wielded by a ghost, and that it counts as both corporeal and incorporeal. My mental image was that the weapon becomes incorporeal when picked up by a ghost, and is corporeal when picked up by a corporeal creature.

Since the only RAW regarding ghost attacks I could find stated that all ghost attacks ignore armor I thought that would be the case. RAI I can see it going the other way though.


A ghost touch weapon is... basically corporeal and incorporeal at the same time. Incorporeal creatures interact with it in the same way corporeal creatures do, regardless of whether it's the handle or the sharp parts.

It is still part corporeal at all times, though, so even while in an incorporeal creature's hands, they could not take off through the wall while holding it; it would be dropped when they did so.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The weapon acts the same no matter who is wielding it. It can effect both Incorporeal and corporeal, as that is what the property allows. Saethori also makes a good point, that the weapon would not go with the creature when it melds into a wall or goes through a door.

Being in both states at once makes it exist in both planes, Material and Ether, thus effecting those from either of those planes equally and to the weapon's full effect.


...It does make me curious, actually.

Obviously, an incorporeal creature can wear Ghost Touch armor. But, can it abandon the armor in order to go through a wall, or does the wall effectively "chain" it to restrictions of the material world until such time it can escape them?

My personal inclination is that it can't abandon armor without some ability to modify its shape or form, which starts bringing to mind some interesting theories. Could you grapple an incorporeal creature if you were using Ghost Touch gauntlets? Could you potentially create Ghost Touch rope, or manacles? Imprisoning ghosts...?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Most can go around the armor like air, though I could see how it could be a concentrated effort to do so.

Most times, it is a weapon picked up in varying circumstances. If an incorporeal creature is wearing Ghost touch armor, he is likely doing so before the group gets to him.


If you want to really give yourself a headache, consider this:

Ghost wearing a Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists.

:)

-j


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Saethori wrote:

...It does make me curious, actually.

Obviously, an incorporeal creature can wear Ghost Touch armor. But, can it abandon the armor in order to go through a wall, or does the wall effectively "chain" it to restrictions of the material world until such time it can escape them?

My personal inclination is that it can't abandon armor without some ability to modify its shape or form, which starts bringing to mind some interesting theories. Could you grapple an incorporeal creature if you were using Ghost Touch gauntlets? Could you potentially create Ghost Touch rope, or manacles? Imprisoning ghosts...?

In the Kingmaker AP, I won't say where to avoid spoilers, this exact thing happens and it mentions that the ghost touch armor prevents them from going through walls.

I would expect that since a 'ghost touch armor' is as real to an incorporeal creature as any armor is to a corporeal creature, the standard rules of donning and removing armor would apply.


More head-scratchers:

Incorporeals can move and wear Ghost Touch armor.

Most do not have a Strength score.

Do they get encumbered?

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