What does a typical, optimized melee class swing look like?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


What I mean I, what is every feat or effect that is added up for massive swings from melee fighters?

I'm trying to compare to an orc bloodline sorcerer to see where the bloodline is weaker in combat than the typical melee fighters.

Liberty's Edge

Generally speaking? Not a whole lot, honestly.

You get:

+ Str score (usually assuming a two-handed weapon, and a Belt at the appropriate level)

+ a level appropriate magic weapon

+ Power Attack (sometimes Furious Focus is included too)

+ Class Specific Stuff (a Barbarian adds Rage and Rage Powers, a Slayer adds Studied Target and sometimes Sneak Attack, a Fighter adds Weapon Training and Fighter-specific Feats, etc.), which can include Class Specific Items (Gloves of Dueling on a Fighter, for example).

A high crit weapon (like a falchion) is often asssumed as well, as is Improved Critical if 9th level or higher. Weapon Focus sometimes gets added, too.

And that's pretty much it. Tell me a level and I could pretty casually show you the basic attack assumptions for it.


Oh. This is DPR stuff. Sad.

I was hoping this was going to be about what the attacks physically looked like. And then I would say "Gutz from Berzerk".

So, lets ignore the capstone and the associated spell (which is basically 'give up spell casting to switch into a full BAB character'; in that case, yes you would match up to full BAB since the spell is meant to make you full BAB). And look at the str boosting mechanics instead.

You get +6 str from strength of the beast, and +6 str when you use power of giants. That totals to +6 attack adn +9 damage. Which brings you to... core rogue levels at around +16 with your BAB before factoring in specific buffs, weapons, etc.

So I am fairly sure it isn't that great. I might do slightly better at specific levels, but you are still dealing with 1/2 BAB. The standard for melee in other classes is 3/4 BAB AND some self buff mechanic that scales to around +4 or +5. And for full BAB classes, most have their bab plus the +4 or +5 attack mechanic.

The orc bloodline is rather nice. But it is nicer when another class steals it with eldritch heritage.

Note that I don't play spell casters much, and especially not melee full casters, so maybe there is some trick I am missing. But still... you have a long way to go before you replace full BAB for direct melee (so you probably have to settle for replacing it in most other ways using spells).

Generally, if you want arcane magic and melee, go magus. If you want MANLY, ANGRY arcane magic and melee, you go blood rager. Or go with any divine class, since they all have at least 3/4 bab even if they have full casting. There are various other options too, such as bard or occultist, but those seem distant from your "I AM BIG ANGRY ORC THAT USES MAGIC" kind of vibe.


Well, I mostly wanted to know what went into a swing in case there are specific feats that are absolutely crucial like vital strike or something. I'm not sure why the blood Ranger or magus would be better but I can say the flavor + available spells/skills isn't there for me.

I want to weigh the pros and cons of picking up a combat feat vs a spell feat. So far I've found this nice writeup: http://taking10.blogspot.com/2013/11/pathfinders-one-hit-wonders-tips-to.ht ml?m=1

With all buffs, generic and bloodline, I've found that I can get to at least +20 str and +10 con already:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BxviDXklmpE4nwKqZY0yudmZd4q Ak6VteuG4cOUPAfw/edit?usp=docslist_api

My goal here is to be 75% caster and 75% hulk melee. 150% op?


..yeah, I don't see that working out. The game does reward specialists, and being 75% one thing and 75% another isn't one I think is good. Nothing wrong with a few side talents -- my barbarian has her bow, for example, so shootery isn't going to leave her sulking on the sidelines.

I think the better idea isn't 'can I match what the fighters and barbarians dish out' but rather 'can I still contribute to the battle'. As said, most melee 'good enough' builds are 3/4 BAB, with some tricks to stay up there; the full BAB folk are of course combat specialists who don't get as awesome a spell list as you do.


Ok so, people keep saying one thing or another but I'm desperately trying to find hard evidence. This isn't happening.

I know there must be something I'm missing, but with +20 str, 1/1 BAB, and around 5 solid combat feats I'm not sure what it is yet.


A melee class focused on high damage will often focus on a two-handed weapon, getting 1.5 str to damage and use power attack. That is the baseline for damage. They have full BAB so they can take the penalty to hit, and still hit reliable. Because they have full BAB the bonus damage from power attack scales more quickly.

Outside of that, classes have their own built in mechanism for increase to hit and damage, such as the fighter's weapon training, which will be further augmented by gloves of dueling.

If your asking if you can make an sorcerer good at melee combat by choosing the orc bloodline...no. He might be fine at the first few levels, but after that your poor BAB will leave you unable to hit by comparison.

It's worth noting that touch of rage ability doesn't work on yourself very well, since it's a standard action that last 1 round. And, just so you know that means it ends just before the start of your next turn. Which means you would only benefit from it on attacks of opportunity.


You guys are killin me here...

For the fourth time today, transformation gives full BAB. I will use a two handed falchion as all half-orcs can use them. I will get +20 strength and +10 con from buffs. I will have rage due to the bloodline. I will have size advantage. I will have haste, among other spells I want to pick up.

So far the only thing I can see that is hindering this is possible class specific battle feats or powers the sorcerer can't access. Am I missing anything else?

I'm begging for anyone who understands both classes to help me herewith real examples and math.


Here is a suggestion.

Roll up a melee character that you want to be able to match or exceed. Calculate their to-hit, damage and DPR at a selection of levels(or even from 1-20 if you can be bothered). Do the same for your sorcerer, and compare the two.

EDIT: Bear in mind when doing this that you should aim to need as few buff rounds as possible during combat. Ideally, you shouldn't need any. One round is tolerable, any more and the fight could be over by the time you get into gear.


Thanks. Looks like I'll need to do that.

Sorry, I had the wrong buff link above, here is the working one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BxviDXklmpE4nwKqZY0yudmZd4qAk6VteuG 4cOUPAfw/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: nvm, this site is the problem. Get rid of the "%20" near the end of the url as copied from here after you try it and fail once.


Well at 20th level a vanilla fighter has class specific features and feats that almost exactly equal the 12ponts of str bonus that you have over him, has better armor, will inflict two separate conditions on you when he crits, and will auto confirm on a 17-20 for x3 with a nodachi or falchion. He will be using either boots of speed or a speed weapon.
I assume the two of you have equal weapon enchants, the fighter has max enhancement bonuses to his stats, gloves of dueling, greater weapon focus and specialization, either improved crit or a keen weapon, critical focus, and two of the critical debuff feats.


Ok, cool. Thanks for those examples. So it's starting to feel like it's specific class features that make the biggest difference, along with equipment that didn't need str to make up for being a sorcerer.


Java Man wrote:

Well at 20th level a vanilla fighter has class specific features and feats that almost exactly equal the 12ponts of str bonus that you have over him, has better armor, will inflict two separate conditions on you when he crits, and will auto confirm on a 17-20 for x3 with a nodachi or falchion. He will be using either boots of speed or a speed weapon.

I assume the two of you have equal weapon enchants, the fighter has max enhancement bonuses to his stats, gloves of dueling, greater weapon focus and specialization, either improved crit or a keen weapon, critical focus, and two of the critical debuff feats.

Hm. Would a dedicated gish-type be sinking that much cash into weapon enchants? A fighter or barbarian, of course. I don't know if this split style would, or even could; I'm no expert on hyper-level play. (Like much fo anything over 10th.)


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Hamburglin wrote:
For the fourth time today, transformation gives full BAB. I will use a two handed falchion as all half-orcs can use them. I will get +20 strength and +10 con from buffs. I will have rage due to the bloodline. I will have size advantage. I will have haste, among other spells I want to pick up.

That and the 12 levels it takes before you can use transformation, and you only have 3 uses of it per day when you do get it, with the rest of the time you are exceedingly 'meh' (while other classes either have enough uses by then, or at least basic ability to figh; paladin, for example, still have full BAB).

If you are starting off at a high level, then sure, it could work. But otherwise, this is the theory crafter's conundrum- I have a totally cool build that only needs 20 levels before it can do its thing!

Even then, it might not necessarily be 'good'. One reason why warpriests are seen as amazing is because they can cast their self buffs as swift actions. Your build appears to require two different standard actions before it warms up (one for power of giants, one for transformation). Every round you spend buffing, that is a round you aren't spending killing. If it is a party buff, like haste, then it is fine, since you make up for lost damage through ally damage. But this self buff stuff? No, not so much. It will definitely drag down your damage per encounter.

Also, transformation's stat buffs aren't necessarily that amazing. It is all enhancement bonus- ie- the thing other classes can get on belts. Admittedly, it is a nice even spread across physical stats, and definitely saves you on costs of buying the best... but sadly, I think I could at least see them grabbing a belt of +4 to their main melee stat by level 12. That, and the spell costs 300 per pop (since you need a potion of bulls strength), which would be 900 gp per day when you first get it. Transformation is not really meant to be a routine spell, it is "oh no, they are bearing down on me and I need a beat stick" spell.

Silver Crusade

Hamburglin wrote:

Thanks. Looks like I'll need to do that.

Sorry, I had the wrong buff link above, here is the working one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BxviDXklmpE4nwKqZY0yudmZd4qAk6VteuG 4cOUPAfw/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: nvm, this site is the problem. Get rid of the "%20" near the end of the url as copied from here after you try it and fail once.

It's actually the space that is added to the URL when you don't make it into a link. The one in your post puts it between 'G' and '4' near the right of the top line. Underneath the text-entry box there is a spoiler titled 'How to format your text (Show)'. It will direct you on how to make it into a link.

Liberty's Edge

Ok, yes, full BAB and buffed, you can equal a fighter in melee combat...but why? That's what people are asking. You might look into crossblooded dragon and go dragon disciple.

Also; your sheet has non-stacking buffs, e.g. boiling blood is a morale bonus to strength, and so is rage. Furthermore, you can't actually cast both rage and transformation, casting either makes you lose your spellcasting.

Transformation and bull's strength (or belt of strength) doesn't stack either.

Iron body gives you a 35% spell failure chance, and you can't cast it after transformation because transformation takes your spells away. So....

So what you're actually looking at is, for 15th level example since you have power of giants in there:
+4 enh
+6 size
+4 inherent
=+14 strength (7 to hit and 10 to damage)
which is certainly not too bad! But you don't have the following fighter advantages:
armor
hitpoints
class specific feats (and gloves of dueling for example)
---class features, including weapon training and greater weapon specialization+focus, conveniently add +7 to hit and 9 to damage.
all those other feats (like, I dunno...http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/weapon-mastery-feats/devastating-assa ult-weapon-mastery)
etc. etc. etc.

So basically, if you spend two rounds buffing, you can turn into a squishy fighter.

Now, I don't want to harsh on your dreams, if that's what you want go for it, but if you think it's going to be the awesomest thing and you're going
to show up the party fighter, I just want to give you a heads up.

Hope that answers your questions.


One wonders, if you want a beatstick who can cast buff spells, why you aren't playing a Magus, Alchemist, or Bard, or (especially) an Inquisitor or Warpriest.

What you lack in full BaB you make up for insane long term or Swift action buffing potential and the ability to actually cast and beatstick at the same time instead of trading the former to do the latter for round/level and 300 gp a pop.

If you're really attached to the Orc Bloodline invest some points in Cha and grab Eldritch Heritage on whatever better for this concept class you choose.


blashimov wrote:

So what you're actually looking at is, for 15th level example since you have power of giants in there:

+4 enh
+6 size
+4 inherent
=+14 strength (7 to hit and 10 to damage)
which is certainly not too bad! But you don't have the following fighter advantages:
armor
hitpoints
class specific feats (and gloves of dueling for example)
---class features, including weapon training and greater weapon specialization+focus, conveniently add +7 to hit and 9 to damage.

And that is around fighter levels, more or less.

Probably less, if we are talking about a well optimized fighter. They would have weapon training (+4), the gloves (+2), both weapon focus (+2, although only +1 over you since you can get basic weapon focus), and maybe a mutagen (+8 str for a +4 to attack, cause hey- why not trade out armor training for flight and more damage?).

So that is +32 to attack. And that doesn't include basic advantages like buff spells (perfectly valid- the sorcerer has to eat 1st level potions every time before it gets the capstone, so why can't the fighter get an enlarger person?). Also transformation doesn't really stack with the stat belt, so that is probably more like +36~+38 compared to you.

So even after switching to melee mode, you are still 'meh' for a beat stick compared to an optimized fighter. And an optimzied fighter would have plenty of other tricks from its feats, while you gave way the best trick in the game (spell casting).

There are plenty of melee casters in this game. Sorcerer is not really one of them. They could have pulled it off better in 3.5 (where polymorph rules were crazy, giving you the physical stats of the creature you turn into, rather than just a generic stat bonus on your base stats), but not so much in pathfinder.


Hamburglin wrote:

You guys are killin me here...

For the fourth time today, transformation gives full BAB. I will use a two handed falchion as all half-orcs can use them. I will get +20 strength and +10 con from buffs. I will have rage due to the bloodline. I will have size advantage. I will have haste, among other spells I want to pick up.

So far the only thing I can see that is hindering this is possible class specific battle feats or powers the sorcerer can't access. Am I missing anything else?

I'm begging for anyone who understands both classes to help me herewith real examples and math.

Yeah, you get transformation. You get the ability to cast it as a spell at 12th level, or get it once per day at 20th level. That's a long as time to wait. Beyond that, it kills your ability to cast spells so you can't buff yourself further with magic unless you spend your rounds casting your other buff spells first, because you wont be able to use them after Transformation. And even though transformation will grant you full BAB for that combat, you do have full BAB for selecting feats, which is honestly more important than just having full BAB.

You're not proficient with any good armor or weapons. You can't wield a flachion without penalty because you're not proficient with martial weapons. Orc Weapon Familiarity makes them martial weapons, which sorcerers still aren't proficient with. You're not proficient with armor, are you going to spend feats to wear armor that's going to impede your spell casting (for when you're not transformed)?

Every round you spend buffing in combat is a round of damage you're not dealing.

I don't know where you're getting +20 bonus to strength or +10 to con. Which buffs are you using? Static buffs are the inherent strength bonus. This is actually good since inherent bonuses are expensive to get otherwise. The size bonus to strength is good, but melee characters will have rings of enlarge person which give them almost as much strength bonus. The natural armor bonus from fearless and strength of giants doesn't stack. The enhancement bonuses granted from transformation doesn't stack with items.

Also, you don't get rage from the bloodline. You get an ability called Touch of Rage, which is worthless to you. It's a standard action on your turn (which means you can't attack) and then it ends just before the start of your next turn. You don't have any other ability called Rage as far as I can tell, so no. You don't get Rage.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
You're not proficient with any good armor or weapons. You can't wield a flachion without penalty because you're not proficient with martial weapons. Orc Weapon Familiarity makes them martial weapons, which sorcerers still aren't proficient with.

Everything else aside, this is factually wrong. Orc Weapon Familiarity gives falchion and greataxe proficiency to everyone. It makes other weapons with orc in their name martial weapons.

So...a Half-Orc Sorcerer can totally wield a falchion without spending additional resources if they like.


Dammit, that's what I get from going from memory.

Still, being able to wield the falchion doesn't really help this build that much.

If he gets to start at level 12+ then he can be a wimpier (less armor, hp, feats) fighter a few times a day. If he simply builds a fighter he can be good at fighting all day. And being good at fighting removes his ability to cast spells, the whole point of playing a spell caster in the first place.

If he really wants to play something along these lines, I would simply strongly suggest playing a Bloodrager with the Abyssal bloodline.


Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll need some time to digest.

And no, I'm not trying to be a fighter full time, but when fire spells don't cut it, it will be a fun change of pace to hulk out.

Being a sorcerer adds SO MANY more options to play with in combat and out as well. I'll never be bored and add a ton to the party.


Have you considered the eldritch scrapper archetype?


I have not. I basically want to be beast from the x-men or bruce banner/the hulk.

I'll take a deeper look at the archetype later today.


From this thread

Attack
Level 10 Fighter Primary Attack
+10 BAB, +5 Str, +2 Weapon Training, +1 Feat, +2 Weapon
+20 To Hit
+17 Power Attacking

Level 10 Fighter Secondary Attack
+10 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon
+15 To Hit

Level 10 Fighter Tertiary Attack
+10 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Weapon
+16 To Hit

Damage
Level 10 Fighter Primary Damage
+7 Str, +2 Weapon Training, +2 Feat, +2 Weapon
2d6+13 Damage
2d6+22 Damage Power Attacking

Level 10 Fighter Secondary Damage
+5 Str, +1 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon
1d8+7 Damage

Level 10 Fighter Tertiary Damage
+5 Str
1d6+5 Damage

Armor Class
Level 10 Fighter
+11 (+2 Full Plate), +3 Dex, +2 NA, +2 Deflection, +1 Feat
AC 29
AC 34 with +3 Large Steel Shield)
Touch 16
FF 25


In terms of things transformation doesn't give:

(level-1)/4+2 attack and damage from weapon training and the gauntlets that boost it.

+1|2 attack at level 1-3|8 from focus
+2|4 damage at level 4|12 from specialization
No power attack penalty on the first swing from furious focus
+6 AC from wearing real armor instead of mage armor
+level/3 max +5 AC because real armor can be enhanced and mage armor can't.
+~2 HP/level from having d10 hit dice.

Transformation gives enhancement bonuses, which overlap belts. The con is useless because you lose the extra HP when the spell ends and can die like a classic barbarian dropping out of rage. A fighter or a gish equipped like a fighter will be getting at least +6 or +8 in total stats from his belt by level 12.

The orc bloodline strength boost only offsets your need to invest in charisma instead of dumping it. You'll have 14 strength or scrape for 16. A fighter would have 18 strength or scrape for 20. Eventually your bonus goes to +6, but it overlaps with what you can get from tomes and wishes. Strength of the beast only reaches +6 at the same level a wizard gets wish and inherent bonuses become cheap so you're really not gaining much from that.

So really all you're getting is Power of Giants. Size is nice, but the +6 strength is +3 attack +4 damage. Weapon training even without the boosting gauntlets is +3/+3 by the level you get that. With them it's +5/+5.

Liberty's Edge

If your DM lets you, quicken spell like ability really helps with touch of rage.


Thank you guys for laying that info out for me. Once I'm free I'll start comparing.

As for quicken spell like ability, that would be great for transformation once it becomes a spell like ability.

Side question- what happens if you prebuff with a buff that only lasts 1 round?


If you cast a buff that only lasts one round, it runs just before the start of your next turn. Meaning you can really make much use of it.


I guess an interesting baseline is building an optimized Warrior, giving it an arbitrary +2 to both attack and damage rolls (and maybe Haste as well, depending on level), then using that as "minimum required damage" for a good martial.

It's a decent point of reference, I suppose...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Should have posted this here... :P


Great post!! Thanks.


I think the point here is:

Sure, you can build a sorcerer to be a worse fighter than an equal level fighter. In so doing, so gimp yourself as a sorcerer making you not particularly great at spell casting or at fighting.

If you want to fight, play a martial class. If you want to cast spells play a full caster. If you want to do a little bit of casting and a little bit of martial there are plenty of 6th level progression casters who can the job competently (though will never be as strong at casting as full casters and only compete with full martials on a limited basis).

But you're trying to shoehorn a class into doing something that just isn't going to do very competently.

You really want to play an arcane caster who can kick ass? Bloodrager. He's light on the casting, but can still pack a wallop. Alternatively, the Magus can blend sword and spell to really kick some ass.

You just need to choose the right tool for the right job.


If you want to fight, turn into a dragon. Gets lots of natural attacks and all at full bab so good with High str and cares less about your bab.


@Claxton I get the premise, but that leaves me wondering what the orc bloodline is good for.


Hamburglin wrote:
@Claxton I get the premise, but that leaves me wondering what the orc bloodline is good for.

Martials with Eldritch Heritage, and evoker/admixture wizards that dip crossblooded sorceror 1.


Hamburglin wrote:
@Claxton I get the premise, but that leaves me wondering what the orc bloodline is good for.

My guess would be "back up plans".

As in, you can grab a transformation when you have tossed out your battlefield controls, summons, and debuffs, and now you just need a beat stick to crush the enemy before they get back up.

For example. when fighting a golem, and you have already used all the nice spells like create pit that get around their defenses.


Hamburglin wrote:
@Claxton I get the premise, but that leaves me wondering what the orc bloodline is good for.

There are a few bloodlines that give things like natural attacks that leads one to think "good for fighting".

These are what we call trap options. Don't do it.

edit: Maybe if you plan to multiclass at some point, but not as a straight sorcerer.


A build is to go crossblooded Orc and Draconic, then go into Dragon Disciple, then Polymorph into a dragon. You get like 7 attacks at +30/+25 all doing insane damage.

*But note, the bloodlines are supposed to be for the race. So an Orc would love the Orc powers because being strong and big are good things for an Orc to have power in the clan.

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