The Saucy Sorceress

[ProfPotts]

We could have had a wizard,
‘Cos power’s fine and dandy,
But instead we chose a sorceress,
‘Cos we all liked eye candy.

Our rogue could sneak and stab at backs,
Our fighter had no fear,
Our sorceress impressed us all,
With how she worked a spear.

Our men-folk all wore armour,
To guard against cruel hits,
Our sorceress? A skimpy dress,
That showed off her nice... tattoos.

On our first adventure,
An ogre meant us harm,
Our sorceress soon soothed the brute,
With her beguiling charm.

We came upon a horde of orcs,
We didn’t stand a chance,
‘Til our sorceress did daze the guards,
With a flirtatious glance.

She wrestled with the orcish chief,
And thus averted war,
We don’t imply, you understand,
That she’s a painted... warrior.

Our sorceress grew to new heights,
In glory and in fame,
Her image now is plastered,
On every book and game.

We could have had a wizard,
With brains and books of spells,
Instead we chose a sorceress,
‘Cos in the end sex sells.

[feytharn]

Because women have to dress modestly, otherwise they are clearly something that would rhyme with war. Even when everything written about the story of the character you clearly describe but shy to name implies otherwise - hooray!

[Arthur G]

I'm offended.

Your metre is all over the place and the rhythm shoddy. Come back when you can pull of an iambic tetrametre.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah...that has some seriously sexist implications. I'm not precisely offended, but I think it's in pretty poor taste.

Not for the sex, mind you, but for the implication that by definition that's the only worth a scantily clad woman could have, and the only way she could succeed at things.

It's particularly inaccurate given that Seoni (the Iconic Sorcerer, with all the tattoos) isn't promiscuous at all.

[JWinston]

It's just a joke... About an unnamed sorceress.

Not all women that dress scantly are promiscuous... But the one described in the poem apparently is. Just because she's a female character, it doesn't mean her attitudes and characteristics apply to the whole gender, you know?

This is obviously meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek. It's humor. Take it easy, people.

[Lord Fyre]

JWinston wrote:

It's just a joke... About an unnamed sorceress.

Not all women that dress scantly are promiscuous... But the one described in the poem apparently is. Just because she's a female character, it doesn't mean her attitudes and characteristics apply to the whole gender, you know?

This is obviously meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek. It's humor. Take it easy, people.

It is still in bad taste.

[Gufi]

Lighten up. Seoni does have nice tattoos.

[Deadmanwalking]

JWinston wrote:

It's just a joke... About an unnamed sorceress.

Who, from description, happens to look identical to the Iconic Sorcerer. What a coincidence.

JWinston wrote:

Not all women that dress scantly are promiscuous... But the one described in the poem apparently is. Just because she's a female character, it doesn't mean her attitudes and characteristics apply to the whole gender, you know?

Absolutely true, but lines like this:

Quote:

But instead we chose a sorceress,

‘Cos we all liked eye candy.

And the fact that the only way she's described as being useful is via sex strongly imply that sex is the only thing a Sorceress could be useful for. Which is the part I object to.

JWinston wrote:

This is obviously meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek. It's humor. Take it easy, people.

Humor helps shape the way people view the world, as does everything people say. I'm not super offended, but that doesn't mean I can't object because I think the joke is based on an unfortunate premise.

Most people who use 'gay' as a pejorative in a 'That's gay, dude.' way claim it's 'just a joke', too. That doesn't make it less of a problem.

[Gisher]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah...that has some seriously sexist implications. I'm not precisely offended, but I think it's in pretty poor taste.

Not for the sex, mind you, but for the implication that by definition that's the only worth a scantily clad woman could have, and the only way she could succeed at things.

It's particularly inaccurate given that Seoni (the Iconic Sorcerer, with all the tattoos) isn't promiscuous at all.

Hmm. Based on the last two verses I considered the entire poem to be a critique of those same sexist views, as well as a lament that they are so popular that economics serves to perpetuate them. I'm hearing two voices with opposing viewpoints: that of the sexist, fictional speaker and that of the real-life author who despairs of people like that.

[Deadmanwalking]

Gisher wrote:

Hmm. Based on the last two verses I considered the entire poem to be a critique of those same sexist views, as well as a lament that they are so popular that economics serves to perpetuate them. I'm hearing two voices with opposing viewpoints: that of the sexist, fictional speaker and that of the real-life author who despairs of people like that.

See, those don't make it better for me. They complain about the glorification of sex, sure, but only reinforce the idea that scantily clad woman = sex and nothing but.

The idea that the Wizard (implicitly less attractive and probably male) is more competent definitionally is baked in and rather the heart of the problem in many ways.

[feytharn]

It is not only that scantily clad woman = sex - it is scantily clad woman = sex = whore - which is far, far worse IMO.

[Deadmanwalking]

feytharn wrote:

It is not only that scantily clad woman = sex - it is scantily clad woman = sex = whore - which is far, far worse IMO.

It's actually the 'and nothing more' part I mentioned I really object to. Sexualizing scantily clad women has its own issues, but if they're competent beyond the sex, it's not inherently bad at all times (there was a previous poem posted by the OP that did that a fair bit, and you'll note I didn't object to it).

Implying that sex is all scantily clad women can be good at? All that they're good for? That's much more of a problem. And something this poem does a lot, whether intentionally or not.

[feytharn]

Arguing whether this or the implication that women that are somewhat eager to initiate sexual relations for various reasons are to be called whores might enter the realm of semantics. Both are quite misogyne.

[Deadmanwalking]

feytharn wrote:

Arguing whether this or the implication that women that are somewhat eager to initiate sexual relations for various reasons are to be called whores might enter the realm of semantics. Both are quite misogyne.

I wasn't arguing with you so much as clarifying my own point.

And yeah...neither is a good attitude.

[Gisher]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Hmm. Based on the last two verses I considered the entire poem to be a critique of those same sexist views, as well as a lament that they are so popular that economics serves to perpetuate them. I'm hearing two voices with opposing viewpoints: that of the sexist, fictional speaker and that of the real-life author who despairs of people like that.

See, those don't make it better for me. They complain about the glorification of sex, sure, but only reinforce the idea that scantily clad woman = sex and nothing but.

The idea that the Wizard (implicitly less attractive and probably male) is more competent definitionally is baked in and rather the heart of the problem in many ways.

That wasn't what I meant, but I think this conversation is likely to go nowhere. People see different things in poetry. I'll just say that I agree with you that misogyny is bad and drop out.

[feytharn]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

feytharn wrote:

Arguing whether this or the implication that women that are somewhat eager to initiate sexual relations for various reasons are to be called whores might enter the realm of semantics. Both are quite misogyne.

I wasn't arguing with you so much as clarifying my own point.

And yeah...neither is a good attitude.

I used arguing as in making an argument - I might have chosen the wrong expression for the right impression (of your intend) ;-)

[Devilkiller]

I like scantily clad women and think Seoni is pretty hot. I'd imagine that she kills monsters with Fireballs and stuff rather than her looks though.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The idea that the Wizard (implicitly less attractive and probably male) is more competent definitionally is baked in and rather the heart of the problem in many ways.

But if the nerds aren't BETTER than the popular people and the jocks then EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!

(I have been reading grognards.txt. This has not made me a better person. But it is weird the degree to which Int Supremacy is baked into 3.X and derivatives.)

[mechaPoet]

This is a bad and sexist poem.

[Alzrius]

I quite enjoyed this poem, and this thread reminds me of the quote from Wayne Gerard Trotman, “It is impossible to be truly artistic without the risk of offending someone somewhere.”

EDIT: I also think that this poem is actually satirizing Seoni as a character, rather than making a comment about women. There's a reason why the "saucy sorceress" in this poem never once casts a spell. (That and, you know, the entire last stanza.)

[Deadmanwalking]

Alzrius wrote:

I quite enjoyed this poem, and this thread reminds me of the quote from Wayne Gerard Trotman, “It is impossible to be truly artistic without the risk of offending someone somewhere.”

EDIT: I also think that this poem is actually satirizing Seoni as a character, rather than making a comment about women. There's a reason why the "saucy sorceress" in this poem never once casts a spell. (That and, you know, the entire last stanza.)

The problem is that, given that Seoni has, to my knowledge, not slept with anyone ever, and certainly with no more than one or two people (and is in an ongoing comic series where that sort of thing does happen to other people)...that's just as bad.

Assuming a woman (even a fictional character) is promiscuous, and utterly worthless aside from as a sex object, just based on the fact that she's scantily dressed is a large part of the problem with the poem, IMO.

[Ms. Pleiades]

You are never early, nor do you arrive when you intend to. You are not a wizard, you are a sorcerer, you arrive four hours late and piss drunk.

This is my preferred wizard/sorcerer joke.

[Alzrius]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The problem is that, given that Seoni has, to my knowledge, not slept with anyone ever, and certainly with no more than one or two people (and is in an ongoing comic series where that sort of thing does happen to other people)...that's just as bad.

Hence why it's satire, rather than holding itself to be a true and accurate representation.

Quote:

Assuming a woman (even a fictional character) is promiscuous, and utterly worthless aside from as a sex object, just based on the fact that she's scantily dressed is a large part of the problem with the poem, IMO.

The poem is poking fun at the people who make that assumption, and used Seoni's character (e.g. her looks) as a basis for it, rather than propagating the assumption itself.

[Deadmanwalking]

Alzrius wrote:

Hence why it's satire, rather than holding itself to be a true and accurate representation.

But it's not satire of the concept that 'pretty, scantily clad, women are only good as eye candy', it reinforces that concept to satirize 'Sex Sells' marketing.

I object to that usage of a noxious stereotype to poke fun at something else. I find it in poor taste.

Alzrius wrote:

The poem is poking fun at the people who make that assumption, and used Seoni's character (e.g. her looks) as a basis for it, rather than propagating the assumption itself.

Where in the poem does she do anything not based on sex? You could have a poem that delivers this message. It would have the same first verse, and maybe the same last one. The rest would involve her actually being competent (and maybe people being surprised by that, or refusing to acknowledge it)...but that's not what this poem is like.

This poem is absolutely propagating the assumption in question.

[Alzrius]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

But it's not satire of the concept that 'pretty women are only good as eye candy', it reinforces that concept to satirize 'Sex Sells' marketing.

Leaving aside questions of putting forward a particular idea as "reinforcing" it in the minds of the readers, I don't believe you're correct. The poem opens and ends with an in-character notation of the people telling the tale admitting that they went for looks over ability, and hence they're what's being ribbed here.

Quote:

I object to that usage of a noxious stereotype to oke fun at something else. I find it in poor taste.

I believe that your premise is incorrect here, and so leads to an incorrect conclusion.

Quote:

Where in the poem does she do anything not based on sex?

Nowhere; that would undercut the context of the poem.

Quote:

You could have a poem that delivers this message. It would have the same first verse, and maybe the same last one. The rest would involve her actually being competent (and maybe people being surprised by that, or refusing to acknowledge it)...but that's not what this poem is like.

Again, I don't agree with your assertion that the only way to poke fun at the underlying stereotypes made with reference to Seoni is to have her character in the poem undertake competent non-sexual actions. Indeed, I believe that would undermine the message, rather than reinforcing it.

Quote:

This poem is absolutely propagating the assumption in question.

There's absolutely nothing within the poem itself that supports that assertion, and quite a bit that contradicts it.

[Saiman]

Well I enjoyed the poem.

All of you are arguing/debating about it being a sexy sorceress and all...

Seems to me you all are forgetting that a sorceress' power/spells come from Charisma in which a lot of people think of as being good looking.

My first sorceress (made a few years ago) was high charisma while sacrificing INT and WIS. So I took her to be a Barbie Doll. Very fine looking but maybe not so smart in other ways. So when she comes upon scenes of carnage, blood, stink, etc. she has the attitude of "ewwwwww."

As for the last line "'Cos in the end sex sells." Is just putting realism into my fantasy game.

[Jessica Price]

Ugh. Could we just not?

[Liz Courts]

Locking thread. Using "just a joke" or "it's humor" as reasoning to post something doesn't work when you're objectifying somebody else, fictional or otherwise. Please do not post this kind of "humor" on the forums.