How does UMD and Summoner casting Fireball from Staff work?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

I have a Summoner with a CHA of 19 (INT=10) and UMD of 20 and he has a Staff of Fire. What is necessary for him to do to use the Staff of Fire to issue a Fireball if Fireball is not on his spell list?


UMD for a wand is 20. So if your skill is a 20, then don't roll a 1.

If you roll a 1, then you cannot use the wand again for 24 hours.

Failure on the roll does not use up a charge.

Silver Crusade

But, for a Staff since it's casting the spell at my caster level, is there any special consideration for that (and for the fact it's not on my spell list), or is the Staff UMD still 20?


Actually, if you have a +19 or higher, you can use a wand or a staff without fail.

CRB UMD Skill wrote:
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

(Bold Mine)

You only get the 24hour lockdown on wand/rod/staff if you roll a 1 and also fail, but a natural 1 doesn't automatically fail on skill checks.

And the UMD is what is needed for not having it on your spell list, if it was on your spell list you wouldn't need to UMD at all.

Silver Crusade

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Actually, if you have a +19 or higher, you can use a wand or a staff without fail.

CRB UMD Skill wrote:
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

(Bold Mine)

You only get the 24hour lockdown on wand/rod/staff if you roll a 1 and also fail, but a natural 1 doesn't automatically fail on skill checks.

And the UMD is what is needed for not having it on your spell list, if it was on your spell list you wouldn't need to UMD at all.

Thanks for the response! Yeah, it seemed like an obvious sort of thing, but I wasn't totally sure since Staves cast at the casters level and Wands do it at the creator's level.


Mulgar wrote:
UMD for a wand is 20. So if your skill is a 20, then don't roll a 1.

If your skill is a 20, you can automatically activate. There is no "1 is an automatic failure" rule in Pathfinder. Furthermore, the wording of the UMD rules confirms this: "[If] you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours." If 1 were an automatic failure, then the highlighted clause would be unnecessary.

So rolling a 1 still gives you 21, which is a success. Success is therefore automatic irrespective of the roll.


For a staff, make your UMD check and use your character's caster level.

The UMD check covers the spell not being on your spell list, everything else works normally.

Scarab Sages

Why would a Sorcerer need to UMD a Staff of Fire? Fireball is on the Sorcerer spell list, even if it's not a spell known.


Use Magic Device does no explicitly cover this, but the nearest examples are "Emulate a Class Feature" & "Use a Scroll" where your effective level is your roll minus 20.


Imbicatus wrote:
Why would a Sorcerer need to UMD a Staff of Fire? Fireball is on the Sorcerer spell list, even if it's not a spell known.

This is about summoners, not sorcerers.

Scarab Sages

Crap, reading fail, sorry.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
David Thomassen wrote:
Use Magic Device does no explicitly cover this, but the nearest examples are "Emulate a Class Feature" & "Use a Scroll" where your effective level is your roll minus 20.

Actually

UMD wrote:
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.

Although the text only refers to a "wand" the section heading clearly indicates that Staffs use the same rules. Since the only thing you need UMD is for the "not on your spell list" issue, I would say uses your caster level, but there is an argument for using the staff CL instead. Ask your GM.

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