Question on sneak attacks


Rules Questions


I have read some where that you can get a sneak attack if you move 10 feet or more in the round. Can't remember if it is a feat or a treat.


If you are a scout archetype.


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It's an archetype the Scout Archetype. Though I can't remember if it's compatible with the Unchained Rogue.

For what it's worth, by moving you can't get more than one Sneak Attack in a round. I'm of the opinion personally that the Scout isn't actually that good because you'll be limited to one attack a round while using it.

It can be okay if you do a Spring Attacker build, but even so your damage is going to be lackluster.


Quickrunner's shirt or the Ranger (Skirmisher) ability "Surprise Shift" can get you that ten feet of movement and still allow for a full attack. Of course, a Quickrunner's shirt can only be used once a day and the Skirmisher ability takes 5 levels to achieve.

Scarab Sages

An unarmed scout with Pummeling Style is quite good.

Sovereign Court

MeanMutton wrote:
Quickrunner's shirt or the Ranger (Skirmisher) ability "Surprise Shift" can get you that ten feet of movement and still allow for a full attack. Of course, a Quickrunner's shirt can only be used once a day and the Skirmisher ability takes 5 levels to achieve.

At higher levels just get 3-5 Quickrunner shirts. Then put on a new one after each fight and keep the rest in your bag of holding. (A good idea for any martial class, especially those which don't already use a ton a swift/immediate actions, and even better for a Scout archetype Rogue than most.)


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MeanMutton wrote:
Quickrunner's shirt or the Ranger (Skirmisher) ability "Surprise Shift" can get you that ten feet of movement and still allow for a full attack. Of course, a Quickrunner's shirt can only be used once a day and the Skirmisher ability takes 5 levels to achieve.

The Skirmisher ability specifies that it only function on the first attack if you somehow gain the ability to move and make more than 1 attack.

Quote:

Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

Technically Imbicatus is right that pummeling charge will work okay as you can charge and full attack. However, as a GM I would apply the same provision from Skirmisher to Scout's Charge.


I really don't know why they limited it to one attack. The rogue needs all the help it can get. I also don't think the limit on Scout's Charge was intended to apply to Skirmisher. Charging already has it's own limitations built into it.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Quickrunner's shirt or the Ranger (Skirmisher) ability "Surprise Shift" can get you that ten feet of movement and still allow for a full attack. Of course, a Quickrunner's shirt can only be used once a day and the Skirmisher ability takes 5 levels to achieve.

The Skirmisher ability specifies that it only function on the first attack if you somehow gain the ability to move and make more than 1 attack.

True - but it's still very beneficial for a U-rogue to get their other swings after landing an SA swing to drop their AC.


wraithstrike wrote:
I really don't know why they limited it to one attack. The rogue needs all the help it can get. I also don't think the limit on Scout's Charge was intended to apply to Skirmisher. Charging already has it's own limitations built into it.

I agree that rogues need help, but when they actually succeed at full round sneak attacks the damage is incredible so I'm not convinced that making them just have more sneak attack more often is really the answer. They need to be a little more well rounded.

Bigger HD, either good fort of will save. Some better rogue talents. Some options to boost skills besides detecting/disabling traps so the rogue skill monkey can actually be good at a skill. Having max ranks in a skill doesn't really make one good at a skill, that's usually the baseline for competent. Other classes often get something like half their class level to a skill as a class feature. Wouldn't it be nice if rogue's could select that as a talent?


Claxon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I really don't know why they limited it to one attack. The rogue needs all the help it can get. I also don't think the limit on Scout's Charge was intended to apply to Skirmisher. Charging already has it's own limitations built into it.

I agree that rogues need help, but when they actually succeed at full round sneak attacks the damage is incredible so I'm not convinced that making them just have more sneak attack more often is really the answer. They need to be a little more well rounded.

Bigger HD, either good fort of will save. Some better rogue talents. Some options to boost skills besides detecting/disabling traps so the rogue skill monkey can actually be good at a skill. Having max ranks in a skill doesn't really make one good at a skill, that's usually the baseline for competent. Other classes often get something like half their class level to a skill as a class feature. Wouldn't it be nice if rogue's could select that as a talent?

They still don't outdamage full BAB classes even with SA added in unless you go with Sap Master.

I think they need to have 2 good saves instead of just one. Barbarians can be built to handle traps and a few other utility based challenges depending on the rage power selected.

Scarab Sages

They don't need 2 good saves, but they do need the option to take Twist Away as a rogue talent to give them a good Fortitude Save at the cost of being staggered.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
At higher levels just get 3-5 Quickrunner shirts.

It says:

Quote:
Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.

General wisdom on things like this is that is a "once per day" thing, so swapping out to another Quickrunner shirt doesn't get you more quick runs.

For example, the Paragon Surge spell doesn't get you different choices the second time you use it in a day.


Imbicatus wrote:
They don't need 2 good saves, but they do need the option to take Twist Away as a rogue talent to give them a good Fortitude Save at the cost of being staggered.

I don't think Twist away is a good option. I would rather just take great fortitude and deal with an ok save.

Personally I dont think they have enough going for them to not warrant 2 good saves.

@James: That is once per shirt, not once no matter what. Paragon surge is not an good example because it is the exact same feat. If you could take paragon surge twice and still be denied that would be different.

Personally I don't think multiple shirts are a good investment though.

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wraithstrike wrote:
@James: That is once per shirt, not once no matter what.

That's the old 3.5 night stick issue.

Items don't grant powers per item. Owning two night sticks doesn't grant more days.


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James Risner wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
@James: That is once per shirt, not once no matter what.

That's the old 3.5 night stick issue.

Items don't grant powers per item. Owning two night sticks doesn't grant more days.

I have never heard of this.

All groups and people I have ever played with read once per day as once per day per item.

So just to be clear in your games meta-magic rods can be used 3/day per type of rod correct? Even if a player has bought more than one of that type of rod?

If a player had say 2 sets of boots of speed the player would only get 10 total rounds of haste even if the player used up one set and then switched to another?

Do you have a citation for this?

I am not trying to be antagonistic but this just seems wrong to me. I may be incorrect and if so would you provide a Pathfinder link/page citation/quote to correct me? No 3.5, no random unofficial Dev posts, and no "this FAQ does not say that but I read it that way".

Not saying you are in the habit of doing any of that, I have just had all of that as answers when some people took some weird stances before and could not find a real rule to back them up.

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@Covent, with your criteria I can't provide a reference that isn't a 3.5 FAQ (which exists) or a pathfinder officially "unofficial" post.

So let's call it table variance.

Since you view each as separate. What happens with 10 Orange Ioun Stones on one character?

Silver Crusade Contributor

James Risner wrote:

@Covent, with your criteria I can't provide a reference that isn't a 3.5 FAQ (which exists) or a pathfinder officially "unofficial" post.

So let's call it table variance.

This is all a new concept to me as well. I wouldn't mind seeing those references, if they're all you've got.

It feels less like "table variance" and more like "houserules". Nothing wrong with that, of course.


James Risner wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
@James: That is once per shirt, not once no matter what.

That's the old 3.5 night stick issue.

Items don't grant powers per item. Owning two night sticks doesn't grant more days.

You missed my point. I am saying the item is only referring to that specific shirt. I understand you don't like it, but that does not make it bad or broken.


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James Risner wrote:

@Covent, with your criteria I can't provide a reference that isn't a 3.5 FAQ (which exists) or a pathfinder officially "unofficial" post.

So let's call it table variance.

Since you view each as separate. What happens with 10 Orange Ioun Stones on one character?

That is not the same thing. At that point you are getting into stacking rules from the same source.

Now if each Orange Ioun Stone was 1/day then yes you could do it, but that is different from an ongoing condition which is what the actual version of ioun stone give.


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Kalindlara wrote:
James Risner wrote:

@Covent, with your criteria I can't provide a reference that isn't a 3.5 FAQ (which exists) or a pathfinder officially "unofficial" post.

So let's call it table variance.

This is all a new concept to me as well. I wouldn't mind seeing those references, if they're all you've got.

It feels less like "table variance" and more like "houserules". Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Here is the FAQ for nightsticks.

3.5 FAQ wrote:


Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris
Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?
Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples.
The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow
untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source.
However, this does lead to an interesting question: Could a
character use a nightstick and then grab a second nightstick to
use? The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the
nightstick and similar items to one a day.

He is basically saying no to the ioun stones, and a suggestion for the night sticks.

The night sticks could be used for shenanigans in 3.5, but there they were not covered under the stacking rules so he could not outright say no. Well he could have, but there is no rule support for it

edit: I just read the nightstick again. I was thinking of the wrong item. With the nightstick it can be read as
1. "the nightstick is giving you 4 more uses of turn undead"
or
2. "the nightstick is raising your daily total by 4".

If you use interpretation 1 then several nightsticks could be used, but under interpretation 2 then only one should be allowed.

So that is ambiguous.

A better example is is carrying more than one rod of ________ metamagic which do the exact same thing. I see no reason why that would not work.


As wraithstrike said in his last two posts.

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