How is awareness of presence determined?

[Torbyne]

The new Vigilante and Stalker specialization in particular heavily depend on opponents being unaware of their presence to pull off many of their combat abilities. This may be covered in the book somewhere so please forgive me if so as i have only read the class entry on d20pfsrd so far but how exactly to you determine if a creature is unaware of presence?

[b]I suppose the big question here is there a difference between an opponent not knowing your exact location and an opponent not knowing your presence in the area?[b/]

Stealth states that if they fail a perception vs. stealth check then they are unaware of you, so assume if you manage to use stealth to hide then they are unaware of your presence.

I would assume invisibility falls into the same general unawareness as stealth as above.

What about a blinded opponent? They may not know an exact location but after the first hit they probably have a good idea, could you continue to activate abilities and boosts that trigger with "unaware of presence"

Possibly a Vigilante could build off Dirty Trick to try blinding an opponent and pull off a full value hidden strike? Eventually Dirty Trick could leave a lingering blindness and allow multiple full value hidden strike attacks?

Edit: Re-read Up Close and Personal, with Hide in Plain Sight a stalker could start their turn with UC&P to roll acrobatics and get a full value hidden strike, then with HiPS and continued movement they could roll for stealth and if they win that roll the opponent is unaware of them again allowing the standard action to be used to make another full value hidden strike attack?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Once you've made yourself known, even if it's from an invisible strike with greater invisibility active, your opponent is aware of your presence, even if they can't make the perception roll to determine your position.

As long as you're still attacking them, it's really hard to argue otherwise.

[Torbyne]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Once you've made yourself known, even if it's from an invisible strike with greater invisibility active, your opponent is aware of your presence, even if they can't make the perception roll to determine your position.

As long as you're still attacking them, it's really hard to argue otherwise.

This was the starting point for me. I didnt see a way to have an opponent return to unaware. UC&P is close in that it allows hidden strike as if they were unaware but doesn't count as unaware for any other abilities.

While digging around in other rules i came across this statement in stealth, "Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment." Before the Vigilante I focused on the "treat you as if you had total concealment" part but since awareness of presence is more important now I have been wondering if that first part applies or if it is just that "awareness of presence" did not need a rule more than determining concealment before so it was more descriptive than setting an "awareness state".

Also, considering HiPS in my first post, it requires dim light within 10' to activate which can somewhat be set up but is still not a given thing the class can do to activate their ability. UC&P looks even more vital now, more so than standard attacks even.

Oh, and uh... One last question; UC&P has very specific language that a passed check grants D8s and a failed check grants D4s but neither results in the target actually being flat footed or denied their dex against you. How does one get any accuracy here? Cunning Feint followed by UC&P? That would eat up action economy and kill the HiPS/UC&P multi attack combo.

[Claxon]

As far as my understanding goes, once combat begins the enemy is "aware of your presence" until they have reason to think that combat is over.

So, if you attack them while greater invisible. "Ran away" or left them alone and followed them until the were no longer "cautious" then I would say that you could catch them unaware again.

But merely having your location unknown or being unseen in not sufficient to be "unaware" of your presence.

I think the line in stealth about being "unaware" does not apply to the mechanical concept put forth in the vigilante class's abilities. Sure, someone your using stealth against is aware of you...until you attack them the first time. After that if you use stealth again they may not be able to see you, but they know you're there.

[Slithery D]

Ultimate Intrigue page 188:

Quote:

States of Awareness: In general, there are four states of awareness that a creature can have with regard to another creature using Stealth.

Unaware: On one end of the spectrum, a sneaking creature can succeed at Stealth well enough that the other creature isn’t even aware that the creature is present. This state allows the sneaking creature to use abilities such as the vigilante’s startling appearance. The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware. This is also true of a creature that has previously been made aware of the creature’s presence or location (see below) but is currently unable to observe the sneaking creature. In those cases, the sneaking creature can’t use abilities such as startling presence.
Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature’s presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn’t know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe. A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature’s presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).

The other states are "aware of location" and "observing."

[Claxon]

Didn't realize they had defined it, so that's great. But it is exactly as I thought.

Attacking the character breaks being unaware, and the target will remain aware until some time after the attacks cease, barring something like mind altering magic.

That means you can effectively only use these abilities once per combat.

[Torbyne]

Thank you for the copy paste. It's good to know although I am somewhat surprised they went and made it so difficult to use the "unaware" more than once per combat. So. Wow. Stalker just took a huge hit at my interest in them.

[Slithery D]

Check out Up Close and Personal vigilante talent:

Quote:

When the vigilante attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's space during a move action, he can attempt a single melee attack against that opponent as a swift action. If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

So you can actually do it every round if you make the Acrobatics check and don't need your swift action for something else.

[MeanMutton]

Slithery D wrote:

Check out Up Close and Personal vigilante talent:

Quote:

When the vigilante attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's space during a move action, he can attempt a single melee attack against that opponent as a swift action. If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

So you can actually do it every round if you make the Acrobatics check and don't need your swift action for something else.

Acrobatics vs. CMD doesn't scale very well, really. That is cool at low levels but at higher levels you end up with creatures with ridiculous CMDs that make this much less likely to work.

[Torbyne]

Even a failed check allows the reduce value hidden strike. Considering it is a 3/4 BAB class with no innate or reliable options to boost accuracy, it may be worthwhile to burn your standard actions on cunning feint and then use your move action to try for a reduced die size sneak attack. It requires two checks before even rolling, limits you to one attack per round and i am not sure the class has many options better than that. well then...

[Imbicatus]

MeanMutton wrote:

Slithery D wrote:

Check out Up Close and Personal vigilante talent:

Quote:

When the vigilante attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's space during a move action, he can attempt a single melee attack against that opponent as a swift action. If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

So you can actually do it every round if you make the Acrobatics check and don't need your swift action for something else.

Acrobatics vs. CMD doesn't scale very well, really. That is cool at low levels but at higher levels you end up with creatures with ridiculous CMDs that make this much less likely to work.

It actually really does scale well, if you build for it.

Acrobat's Pillar +2 Circumstance Bonus for 24 hours
Boots of Elvenkind +5 Competence bonus
Vexing Defender+4 Trait Bonus
Skill focus: +6 untyped
Acrobatic: +4 untyped
Monkey Style: + WIS bonus untyped
Not to mention, every increase to Dex also increases your acrobatics check.

[ShieldLawrence]

Another fun trick is Up Close and Personal with Hide in Plain Sight. A high enough stealth check means they aren't going to be able to make the AoO even if you fail the acrobatics check. The Vigilante even gets a talent that allows full speed stealth AND acrobatics at no penalty.

[Torbyne]

ShieldLawrence wrote:

Another fun trick is Up Close and Personal with Hide in Plain Sight. A high enough stealth check means they aren't going to be able to make the AoO even if you fail the acrobatics check. The Vigilante even gets a talent that allows full speed stealth AND acrobatics at no penalty.

I've been considering uses of HiPS before, it can negate the AoO and make an enemy flat footed against you for UC&P but seems a better fit for stealth after the attack during your move to allow a second attack against flat footed AC with the diminished hidden strike.

Honestly, two attacks per round with sneak attacks added seems to be the best you can get out of the class, and that requires multiple skill checks to pull off. I need to throw some samples together and see how well that actually performs. I feel like the class can be decently mobile and pull off noticeable damage if they can land their hits. But I worry about its accuracy and if damage scales well with level.

[ShieldLawrence]

Torbyne wrote:

ShieldLawrence wrote:

Another fun trick is Up Close and Personal with Hide in Plain Sight. A high enough stealth check means they aren't going to be able to make the AoO even if you fail the acrobatics check. The Vigilante even gets a talent that allows full speed stealth AND acrobatics at no penalty.

I've been considering uses of HiPS before, it can negate the AoO and make an enemy flat footed against you for UC&P but seems a better fit for stealth after the attack during your move to allow a second attack against flat footed AC with the diminished hidden strike.

Honestly, two attacks per round with sneak attacks added seems to be the best you can get out of the class, and that requires multiple skill checks to pull off. I need to throw some samples together and see how well that actually performs. I feel like the class can be decently mobile and pull off noticeable damage if they can land their hits. But I worry about its accuracy and if damage scales well with level.

Perfect Vulnerability also works well with UC&P, a standard action to target their touch flat-footed and then move action to hit them again, both at full BAB. Its risky playing, almost provoking all the time, but can be super fun and super rewarding when things work out.