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My players are considering massed green slime
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shrunken lava.
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Polymorph Any Other some green slime into armadillos adn chuck them at the dragon, aye, that would work.
ITemized Lava turned into paper, wrapped up into dense scroll tubes adn chucked at it would be effective, too.
For both, you better get rid of it all before the dragon gets close to you, however...
===Aelryinth
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The entire dragon is in it.The spell never got changed for dragons to my knowledge.The rules got changed.
I learn so much in these chats. So impossible to find all the rules without others finding them for you. Thanks.
Okay, so Dragon anti-magic nonsense. It mostly depends what the dragon is doing and what the terrain is like.
Best approach with Dragons is always diplomacy....they usually don't regard player races as a threat, which works to your advantage if trying to appear weak or humble.
As for killing them, a good one I've heard for dealing with flying dragons is to ready a Wall Stone to appear in their flight path when its too late for them to turn to avoid (like as they are swooping in to attack). Since it's instantaneous, should work here. Is limited to the GM's interpretation of what would happen, but I've heard good results on this end. And since they are crashing into the wall, instead of the wall attacking them, it often bypasses DR and such (like falling damage).
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Knowledge is power. Since I'd say its safe to assume that the spell's known listed in the bestiary is in fact the most common list, a bit of research and knowledge checks should hopefully reveal that fact. If the party is going in blind, well... there are lots of surprises at CR17 that can end up deadly. When suddely confronted with a tactic like antimagic field on a flying beast of doom, a good strategy is to retreat and retry. If the party can get the drop on the dragon before the antimagic field is up, lots of readied actions to either counter or disrupt the casting of the antimagic field are probably the way to go.
You normally get a reflex save to avoid being trapped/imprisoned/run into a wall of force, too. Remember that the Dragon has Spellcraft, and can easily tell what spell you are casting.
Also, it would get damage reduction against the impact damage. So, not likely to take much, regardless. Maxes out at 20d6 anyways.
==Aelryinth
*ahem*
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane
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Armor class had an absolute cap in pre 3.0 games, it was effectively what AC 31 would be now.
Nitpick:
There are at least 3 dragons* with AC -12 max [= AC 32 in PF]
Dracolich of above is -14 max [= AC 34 in PF]
/cevah
*Amethyst Dragon, Gold Dragon, and Shadow Dragon
YOu can't dispel a wall of force, either. You can only destroy it. It's one of the things that stay around even in an AM shell.
And there was no upper limit to AC in 2e, only 'highest published'. Holy Sardior, someone remembered the gem dragons?!
We got a drow fighter/cleric in the Vault of the Drow down to -20 AC with spells without too much trouble. Shocked my brother when his 15th level dwarf with the dwarven thrower kept missing her!
==Aelryinth
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Wait, the Caster can't undo his/her own Wall of Force?YOu can't dispel a wall of force, either. You can only destroy it. It's one of the things that stay around even in an AM shell.
==Aelryinth
You can undo it, because Wall of Force is (D) - a fact which almost nobody would know without googling the spell. However, you don't call that "dispelling the wall". You call that "dismissing the wall". These distinctions matter.
Let me guess, you guys are playing Way of the Wicked, book 4. I asked this very same question back in November, and answers were just as muddled as the ones in this thread. In order to beat a dragon with AMF, either you need a buffed up gunslinger (nonmagical ranged touch attacks) who doesn't get beelined in the first round by the dragon, or you need to kill the dragon with trickery outside of actual combat.
P.S. some math. It would take 18 5d6 snowballs, or 56 total full attacks from lantern archons on average to kill an ancient copper dragon.
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As for killing them, a good one I've heard for dealing with flying dragons is to ready a Wall Stone to appear in their flight path when its too late for them to turn to avoid (like as they are swooping in to attack). Since it's instantaneous, should work here. Is limited to the GM's interpretation of what would happen, but I've heard good results on this end. And since they are crashing into the wall, instead of the wall attacking them, it often bypasses DR and such (like falling damage).This does not work either.
Rules for conjuration/summoning spells don't allow them to be called into existence in mid-air.And even if the dragon were flying low enough that you could build it up tall enough to try, the dragon should still get a save to avoid it. (much like trying to use a wall to 'trap' someone, as per the spell description.
Now, a Wall of Force, on the other hand, is evocation...
As an instantaneous conjuration, it is specifically unaffected by an anti magic field, provided the spell is cast while not subject to the field. Like a field centered on a moving target, the stone wall could be summoned just before the field, leaving a very small window for the swooping flyers to maneuver away.
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For a Dragon, I would argue it is (Ex). I would say that the reason Dragons have DR is probably because of Smaug from "The Hobbit." Tolkien's description of this mighty hide likely influenced Gygax and early D&D writers to include DR for Dragons.As a quick point of trivia, D&D did not have DR until 3rd edition so I can guarantee that 'Gygax and early D&D writers' did not include it for dragons. While you are very much correct in that Smaug definitely would have influenced them, it was reflected in dragons Armor Classes and Magic Resistances, which were usually some of the highest in the game.
Armor class had an absolute cap in pre 3.0 games, it was effectively what AC 31 would be now.
Going from memory, in 2nd edition dragons had immunity to non-magical ranged attacks, to let them fight armies without being shot to death by thousands of arrows (Nat 20's happen, and 2nd ed didn't have crit confirmation rolls).
As for fighting said AMF dragon... it depends on it's tactics. If it has flyby attack (noting that you're expected to custom build dragons - the published stats are just an example), it is a very different fight to if the dragon wants to stay in melee and full attack. The Greater Trip route of the example dragon is... interesting, but it could really have used Combat Reflexes in lieu of Quicken Spell to get an extra AO per round - at which point using its wing attacks to trip foes and AO them with its bite is a nifty way of both hindering and mauling the PCs even further. That said, as it is gargantuan, Crush attacks are a fun option (pinned + good damage + antimagic field)
If the PCs are able to attack at range and stay out of the AMF, it's a game of "Buff the Archer".
If it closes to melee, its more a matter of trying to be clever with maneuvering - ideally you want the Antipaladin and Warpriest tag-teaming melee, the inquisitor outside of the AMF patching up whichever of the two has withdrawn out of the field, and the archer close by to shoot it a lot and withdraw if the dragon comes after him. Yes, burning actions to move (or even Withdraw if you don't want the AO) hurts the PCs damage per round, but moving hurts the dragon's damage output even more.
Keep in mind as well, that if the AMF tactic doesn't seem to be helping, the dragon can always fly away, dismiss it, consume some of its treasure in wands/potions to heal up, buff up (I'd recommend greater invisibility, haste, stoneskin, greater heroism and possibly globe of invulnerability) and then return to maul the party with its full arsenal of abilities.
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Let me guess, you guys are playing Way of the Wicked, book 4. I asked this very same question back in November, and answers were just as muddled as the ones in this thread. In order to beat a dragon with AMF, either you need a buffed up gunslinger (nonmagical ranged touch attacks) who doesn't get beelined in the first round by the dragon, or you need to kill the dragon with trickery outside of actual combat.
P.S. some math. It would take 18 5d6 snowballs, or 56 total full attacks from lantern archons on average to kill an ancient copper dragon.
Yep. I was running it. Even I was surprised about how effective the AMF + Dragon was. Typically my players come up with all sorts of nifty ideas... but this time it was a blank, and even I couldn't come up with any decent options to recommend at the time.
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May I just say it only takes 2 rounds from a raging barbarian when he crits with a great ax. If the characters are well built enough an AMF is merely a debuff. Archers also can easily kill it in 2 rounds especially with clustered shots.Let me guess, you guys are playing Way of the Wicked, book 4. I asked this very same question back in November, and answers were just as muddled as the ones in this thread. In order to beat a dragon with AMF, either you need a buffed up gunslinger (nonmagical ranged touch attacks) who doesn't get beelined in the first round by the dragon, or you need to kill the dragon with trickery outside of actual combat.
P.S. some math. It would take 18 5d6 snowballs, or 56 total full attacks from lantern archons on average to kill an ancient copper dragon.
Let's do some more math.
Ancient Copper Dragon's stats: DR 15/magic, 39 AC, 310 HP. A level 14 barbarian in an antimagic field would have, at most, 29 strength while raging. With their nonmagical pointy metal stick, they would have an attack bonus of 20 = 14 (BAB) + 9 (strength) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 4 (Power Attack), and deal 1d12 + 13 (strength) + 12 (Power Attack). Using this online DPR calculator, we can see that he deals 6.93 damage per round, on average, on a full attack against a target with 39 AC. And that's assuming the dragon's DR doesn't function in the AMF. That's 45 rounds of full attacking for this barbarian to kill the dragon. Without using Power Attack, his DPR increases to 8.58, or 37 rounds to kill.
Am I missing something obvious?
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Come And Get Me would help. Ditto Reckless Abandon and Furious Focus.
Normally I'd say those would get them dead real quick, but they're dead real quick whatever happens (their AC is awful and there's no healing). And those would jack their DPR a whole lot.
+4 to all attacks, another +4 to the first, and 2-3 AoO per turn will do that.
I'm pretty sure they still won't do anywhere near enough, but it'll help.
EDIT: Indeed, all that (assuming Dex 14) plus Improved Critical gives a DPR of 45.04 or so. Swapping to a Falchion improves it a little to 46.05.
That's not nearly enough on its own. It is better, though.
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May I just say it only takes 2 rounds from a raging barbarian when he crits with a great ax. If the characters are well built enough an AMF is merely a debuff. Archers also can easily kill it in 2 rounds especially with clustered shots.Let me guess, you guys are playing Way of the Wicked, book 4. I asked this very same question back in November, and answers were just as muddled as the ones in this thread. In order to beat a dragon with AMF, either you need a buffed up gunslinger (nonmagical ranged touch attacks) who doesn't get beelined in the first round by the dragon, or you need to kill the dragon with trickery outside of actual combat.
P.S. some math. It would take 18 5d6 snowballs, or 56 total full attacks from lantern archons on average to kill an ancient copper dragon.
Let's do some more math.
Ancient Copper Dragon's stats: DR 15/magic, 39 AC, 310 HP. A level 14 barbarian in an antimagic field would have, at most, 29 strength while raging. With their nonmagical pointy metal stick, they would have an attack bonus of 20 = 14 (BAB) + 9 (strength) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 4 (Power Attack), and deal 1d12 + 13 (strength) + 12 (Power Attack). Using this online DPR calculator, we can see that he deals 6.93 damage per round, on average, on a full attack against a target with 39 AC. And that's assuming the dragon's DR doesn't function in the AMF. That's 45 rounds of full attacking for this barbarian to kill the dragon. Without using Power Attack, his DPR increases to 8.58, or 37 rounds to kill.
Am I missing something obvious?
Reckless Abandon (compensates for power attack) and the Invulnerable Rager archetype (grants 7 points of DR/- at 14th level, or more depending on rage powers).
Additionally, a magic weapon in an antimagic field is still a masterwork weapon, so granting another +1 to attack. This might not seem like much, but allow me to elaborate (using a greatsword and Improved Critical):
- +20 to attack = 10% chance to hit on 1st attack (1% chance to crit); 5% chance to hit with 2nd and 3rd (can't crit). Effective Damage: 21% of damage per hit = 32 x 21% = 6.72
+25 to attack = 35% chance to hit on 1st (7% chance to crit); 10% on 2nd (1% chance to crit); 5% on third (can't crit). Effective Damage: 58% of base damage per hit = 32 x 58% = 18.56 damage per round.
+29 to attack (no power attack) = 55% chance to hit on 1st (11% chance to crit); 30% on 2nd (6% chance to crit); 5% on third (0.25% chance to crit). Effective Damage: 107.25% of base damage per hit = 20 x 107.25% = 21.45 damage per round.
Ish. I don't claim my rushed math is perfect.
Is it going to paste the dragon into the ground? Well.. no. But AMF does that to high level PCs in Pathfinder, as a huge chunk of PC effectiveness hinges on magic items and buffs.
Similarly, 7 (or more) DR/- isn't going to keep the barbarian alive forever, but when the dragon is slogging you with 4-6 attacks per round, that DR definitely makes a difference.
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Ah! I forgot the Masterwork.
That ups the Great Axe DPR to 52.76 assuming Dex 14, Come And Get Me, Furious Focus, Improved Critical, and Reckless Abandon. The Falchion version is 53.63 DPR. That goes up by almost 14 points if they've got Dex 16.
That drops killing it to 7 rounds (5 with Dex 16).
The Barbarian will get hit every time, and has his DR reduced by 4, so he likely won't last that long, but I think those numbers make the point of why a Barbarian is useful in this instance.
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Lots of aid another for +2?
Bring in minions to assault other areas and distract?
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Sky Mines...
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Well you have an archer in the party. This is good. Does he have clustered shots? Then in a war of attrition they should win as long as they are willing to spend a good deal of gold in the encounter. Get let's say 50? 100? doses of low level poison and apply each to an arrow, the poison will take effect as the arrows will damage the dragon because of clustered shot. Now poisons have low DCs and Dragons have strong fort saves. But if the guy is firing six arrows per round and assuming they all hit (unlikely perhaps, but still) then you get to fish for ones. You could either go with drow poison and the instakill, or you could go with a con damage poison. I would reccomend drow poison. One failed save and it's dead. 100 doses would cost 7500gp. Not much at this level. On average 20 arrow hits later, it will be dead regardless of what it does as it will (probably) have rolled a 1.
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Try trimming the branches of The Horror Tree. Just shoot it with arrows tipped in that fungus and kill it at 10 dex damage. Gives a neat sidequest for the group too.
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Nice avatar.
Reckless Abandon (compensates for power attack) and the Invulnerable Rager archetype (grants 7 points of DR/- at 14th level, or more depending on rage powers).
Additionally, a magic weapon in an antimagic field is still a masterwork weapon, so granting another +1 to attack. This might not seem like much, but allow me to elaborate (using a greatsword and Improved Critical):
+20 to attack = 10% chance to hit on 1st attack (1% chance to crit); 5% chance to hit with 2nd and 3rd (can't crit). Effective Damage: 21% of damage per hit = 32 x 21% = 6.72
+25 to attack = 35% chance to hit on 1st (7% chance to crit); 10% on 2nd (1% chance to crit); 5% on third (can't crit). Effective Damage: 58% of base damage per hit = 32 x 58% = 18.56 damage per round.
+29 to attack (no power attack) = 55% chance to hit on 1st (11% chance to crit); 30% on 2nd (6% chance to crit); 5% on third (0.25% chance to crit). Effective Damage: 107.25% of base damage per hit = 20 x 107.25% = 21.45 damage per round.Ish. I don't claim my rushed math is perfect.
Is it going to paste the dragon into the ground? Well.. no. But AMF does that to high level PCs in Pathfinder, as a huge chunk of PC effectiveness hinges on magic items and buffs.
Similarly, 7 (or more) DR/- isn't going to keep the barbarian alive forever, but when the dragon is slogging you with 4-6 attacks per round, that DR definitely makes a difference.
Since a Nat 20 is always crit threat, and a Nat 20 always hits, I would think there is a minimum of 0.25% chance to crit on every hit by rolling two Nat 20s. First to threaten, second to confirm.
Add in Tanglefoot bags/arrows. Nonmagical, and grant entanglement for short time even when they make the save. Simple and cheap debuff.
/cevah
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Tanglefoot bags, hah! Yea enough chucked at it will be a good low level way to slow it down. Better if you get minions in there to hurl them.
Try UMD/Spellcraft of Disjunction?
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Tanglefoot bags, hah! Yea enough chucked at it will be a good low level way to slow it down. Better if you get minions in there to hurl them.
Try UMD/Spellcraft of Disjunction?
At the level the party is at they can use a scroll directly without UMD if they can get their hands on a scroll. The dragon is not likely to fail the save though since scrolls have the lowest possible DC.
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A small squad of kineticists should be able to take care of the dragon, depending on GM interpretation on how their blast interacts with the AMF. (20d6+36+other mods)*1.5 will add up quick, as long as they stay out if the AMF to use their SLAs.
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The Mage's Disjunction save is only to protect your magic items, it wouldn't come into effect. You'd just have a 1% per caster level (probably 17%) chance to destroy the antimagic field.
But it's a bad option. If I remember right a 9th level spell costs about 4k gold. You have to commit to use four scrolls before you have a better than 50% chance of success (.83^4 = 47.5% chance of still not having a success). Then he puts it back up and you have to repeat until he runs out of spell slots. And it's short range, so you've got to spend a whole of gold, a whole lot of actions (while someone else hands you the scrolls), and stay out melee range. Not likely.
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Tanglefoot bags, hah! Yea enough chucked at it will be a good low level way to slow it down. Better if you get minions in there to hurl them.
The point is not to slow it, but to entangle it.
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
...
The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness.
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The entangling occurs even when they make the save. It lasts 2d4 rounds.Being -2 on attacks is a definite debuff for the dragon.
Being -4 Dex means their AC is 2 worse, which helps those attacking it.
Biggest problem is the creature's size. If they are too big, these don't work.
/cevah
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Just as a point of note he keeps his gear besides his weapon if he is smart enough to enlarge with a long spear/glaive. Turns out just having a reach stick lets him full attack with haste and such giving him a great to hit. Hurtful also helps.
That'd help, yeah. Might even double his DPR (though probably no more). The Dragon's still gonna eat him after a round, though, since it all turns off when he gets attacked.
Of course, most Barbarians don't use Reach weapons, and are almost impossible to buff if they have superstition. So you need to know exactly what you're getting into pre-fight to do this.
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DR 15/Magic, if it's allowed to work. But magic DR is SU and suppressed in an AM Field.
==Aelryinth
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Ancient Copper Dragon's stats: DR 15/magic, 39 AC, 310 HP. A level 14 barbarian in an antimagic field would have, at most, 29 strength while raging. With their nonmagical pointy metal stick, they would have an attack bonus of 20 = 14 (BAB) + 9 (strength) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 4 (Power Attack), and deal 1d12 + 13 (strength) + 12 (Power Attack). Using this online DPR calculator, we can see that he deals 6.93 damage per round, on average,1d12+13+12 = 7?
It does on average when you only hit one in six times (or whatever). That's how averages (specifically the mean) work.
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Alchemists with Ooze bombs (more specifically green slime) or alchemical arrows with green slime in them, would require the Copper dragon to dismiss the anti-magic field in order to burn off the slime, leaving him vulnerable to standard tactics.
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Nice avatar.
Thanks ;)
Since a Nat 20 is always crit threat, and a Nat 20 always hits, I would think there is a minimum of 0.25% chance to crit on every hit by rolling two Nat 20s. First to threaten, second to confirm.
You know, I have played this game (and 3.5) for years, and from the time I was introduced to third edition, every group I've gamed with has been unilaterally adamant that a nat 20 on the critical confirmation roll is not an automatic success.
So for the sake of diligence, I went to check the rules.
Turns out, in fact, that you are correct: The confirmation roll is just an attack roll and a nat 20 is an automatic success. And it was exactly the same in 3.5. Makes me wonder how the Rules Myth managed to propagate so thoroughly through the gaming circles over here. Weird.
And I stand corrected :)
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AM BARBARIAN!
AM SMASH!
AM STRENGHT SURGE + SPELL SUNDER STUPID ANTIMAGIC FIELD!
AM KILL STUPID DRAGON THAT THINKS HE IS SMARTER THAN AWESOME BARBARIAN!
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AM BARBARIAN!
AM SMASH!
AM STRENGHT SURGE + SPELL SUNDER STUPID ANTIMAGIC FIELD!
AM KILL STUPID DRAGON THAT THINKS HE IS SMARTER THAN AWESOME BARBARIAN!
This a great tactic on many casters. The Dragon has a CMD of 46, though.
Meaning the Barbarian needs a 51 to do anything to it (possible, but by no means a sure thing even with a +14) and needs a 56 to do more than supresss it for a round (a 61 to dispel it permanently). Oh, and the Dragon can then re-cast it, so all you buy is a round at most.
Now, buying a round might be worth it (depending on party composition), but it's not an I win button. And that'll definitely piss the Dragon off.
And if I were the Dragon, I'd have all my buffs going under the field, just because that's funny.