RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Honestly, if the concern was "Getting dex damage on both weapons" The fix would simply be "You do not get this bonus when using two weapon fighting, flurry, or any method that allows an off hand attack."
Thus your Florentine swashbuckler can take his normal attacks with rapier/main gauche with dex to damage, or go crit fishing with full twf. Your Rolandero duelist can fight with a bigger shield, or your poor low level human adventurer can fight in the dark with a torch in one hand, and his dex to damage weapon in the other.
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Ok, I'm not trying to be overly difficult, but someone asked for an example of A and B together, and you've so far said, "oh, here's an example of A, and here's a different example of B".
Hold a second. This:
And it would be fair to say that we, as a player base knew about this, it's another leap altogether to say that you knew that Paizo was going to start reprinting player companion feats in a hard cover line just so that they could change how they worked. This is, to my knowledge, the first time they have ever reprinted a feat to change how the feat works. And considering how many feats that already exist in the player companion (or campaign setting) books that are already problematic (sacred geometry comes to mind) that have never been touched, it's a little surprising that they decided to do so specifically for fencing grace.
is the thing that we where discussing. Not all the extra stuff you keep trying to add. Additionally, I just gave a literal example of an option originally in a splat book (Blood of Angels) that was altered and reprinted in a hardcover book (Inner Sea Gods), that did completely alter the option in an effort to errata it, and it did affect PFS 100%, but I'm unclear how that is not good enough?
Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels
To create an aasimar, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation. Aasimars with at least one xp applied before August 14, 2014, remain legal for play.
Bloodlines: martyred bloodline is legal for Pathfinder Society but the bonus feat Leadership remains unavailable; Heritages: all heritages, and associated traits, on pages 21–23 are legal; Feats: all feats on pages 24–25 are legal except Supernal Feast; Magic: bard masterpieces are legal; Other: variant assimar abilities are not legal for Pathfinder Society; Oracle Curses on page 26 are legal; Inquisitons on pages 26–27 are legal; ; Traits: all traits on pages 30–31 are legal except ethical leader. Clergy member is useable once per scenario instead of once per week. Faith healer may be used for Day Job checks.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods
Equipment: all equipment and magic items on pages 250–271 are legal except demon mother's mask, father's forgehammer, gray gambler's hat, preklikin's book of cults and stagger-proof boots; Feats: all feats on pages 204–217 are legal except Dreamed Secrets; Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens. A PC may worship a dead deity, but such gods grant no spells or other benefits; Misc.: all material in chapter 1 and 2 is legal except pages 92–99; Prestige Classes: the evangelist, exalted, and sentinel prestige classes are legal for play. The evangelist prestige class may not be taken as an option until 6th level. The sentinel's righteous leader class feature is replaced with a deity specific feat of the player's choice from pages 204–217 or the Persuasive feat; Spells: all spells on pages 228–245 are legal except ghoul hunger, spawn calling, and transplant visage. All variant spellcasting on pages 19–171 are legal except page 99; ; Traits: all traits on pages 218–223 are legal.
My first example was a Feat from a splat book that was "corrected" in a hard cover book and affected PFS. Sure, there was some "grandfathering", but so what?
Secondly I pointed out another Feat that was also altered, this one not from a splat book, but just to point out that sometimes these things happen. No grandfathering, not rebuild allowed in this case, as far as I recall. It just literally changed completely how it worked overnight, leading to a few months of further issues as it quickly became clear that the original change made further Feats in the chain literally unusable, (can't take an AoO while Full Defense).
Lastly, I mentioned a Non-Feat that had been altered just like Fencing Slashing Grace, including from a splat book to a "corrected" hard cover, 100% applying the new form in PFS only, and if I recall not allowing rebuilds or whatever unless the player did not own the now only legal version it now came from. The Whimsy Domain was very popular for a short while when Paizo had done a few really amazing Good Aligned goodness books, so a lot of folks where angry over that one.
Again, wasn't trying to answer "A plus B plus C plus D", as that was not part of the question I was responding to. I'm sorry, but I'm deployed and away from the majority of my books and notes, or I'm sure I could find more examples of all those things for you. Like I said, it's uncommon, but it happens.
:)
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Sorry, this is my bad.
No worries. I was a bit confused about some of the comments you said, but not angry or anything.
From what I recall about the Whimsy Domain (I never had a character with is so it's a bit fuzzy), there was no grandfathering involved. This was before there where specific rules for what allowed respecs or rebuilds, so at that time, unless the PFS leadership specifically called it out for a changed option, you either had to use the new version immediately, or if you did not own the new book, could be left in a sort of grey area where your character was not legal any longer.
And I get your anger/disappointment. I've been there, and it's frustrating when you spend money to "unlock" a cool new option only to have it changed to not work for you, be "forced" to buy a new book, or essentially have your entire build/concept destroyed, or the rug pulled out from beneath it after you have already begun to invest into it.
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I feel that the Paizo employees that publish these changes have probably sat down at enough home, company, public games, playing adventure paths, homebrew, and Pathfinder Society tables to see this feat, in action, and unbalanced. To those affected, sorry, but it happens.
But it's not unbalanced, that's why this nerf is so unwarranted and puzzling. If Paizo was concerned with actually removing unbalanced options, they'd have taken a ban hammer to Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Arcanist, and every other 9th level caster a long time ago.
This nerf doesn't actually address a balance concern (seriously, can someone show me a single post where people are complaining about a TWF Fencing Grace build?), it's just a random nerf to martial classes because I guess martials can't have nice things.
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I feel that the Paizo employees that publish these changes have probably sat down at enough home, company, public games, playing adventure paths, homebrew, and Pathfinder Society tables to see this feat, in action, and unbalanced. To those affected, sorry, but it happens.But it's not unbalanced, that's why this nerf is so unwarranted and puzzling. If Paizo was concerned with actually removing unbalanced options, they'd have taken a ban hammer to Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Arcanist, and every other 9th level caster a long time ago.
This nerf doesn't actually address a balance concern (seriously, can someone show me a single post where people are complaining about a TWF Fencing Grace build?), it's just a random nerf to martial classes because I guess martials can't have nice things.
Honestly, it's less of a nerf for martials than it is for Magi.
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This nerf doesn't actually address a balance concern (seriously, can someone show me a single post where people are complaining about a TWF Fencing Grace build?), it's just a random nerf to martial classes because I guess martials can't have nice things.
Its not about banhammering options its about banhammering options between niches that are the best its about banhammering options that are far and above the best thing in their niche.
I see. The Additional Resources page wasn't confusing enough, so now you also have to download a pdf and cross-reference the two. Makes sense. :)The additional resources page says that all of the content for Advanced Class Origins is legal, so wouldn't the Fencing Grace feat from that book still work with Spell Combat? (As opposed to the other Fencing Grace feat from UI.)It is still legal, yes, but according to the Campaign Clarifications it now has the extra lines to treat it the same as it is found in Ultimate Intrigue.
Ah, I see that the document contents are listed online as well as in pdf form. That's not so bad.
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EDIT: Honestly I'm not going anywhere near Dervish Dance right now. I can't see them changing Slashing and Fencing Grace and then not changing Dervish Dance, which is actually easier to meet prerequisites for. In fact, given the recent clarification, it's now legal with a buckler...
How does the monk flurry with a scimitar? Saranite monk with the favored weapon can flurry feat?
How does the monk flurry with a scimitar? Saranite monk with the favored weapon can flurry feat?
EDIT: Honestly I'm not going anywhere near Dervish Dance right now. I can't see them changing Slashing and Fencing Grace and then not changing Dervish Dance, which is actually easier to meet prerequisites for. In fact, given the recent clarification, it's now legal with a buckler...
Sohei monk with a 3 level Weapon Master Fighter dip?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Quite aside from questions about whether the nerf was a good one, I want to offer some thoughts on "process" here.
- It's good that Clarifications has been used to synchronize UI Fencing Grace with ACO Fencing Grace. Otherwise there'd be no end of arguments about it.
- When the hammer came down on Slashing Grace, we could've expected it to eventually happen to Fencing Grace as well. Normally softcovers don't get changed, but there were several reasons to expect this one might;
- Fencing Grace is a big deal of a feat, to the swashbuckler specifically. It was shoved into a softcover as the fastest way to ameliorate the Slashing Grace "rapier gap", but it really does belong in a hardcover.
- It would be very weird not to have it synchronous with Slashing Grace.
- Not amending softcovers is a standard pracnaivetice, not an iron rule. It's been done before but only when clearly needed (Accelerated Drinker FAQ) or when opportune (various reprints in Inner Sea Gods).
- Given the way people have been talking about how softcovers never get errataed, it was tempting the gods a bit.
- Given the likelihood of Fencing Grace getting Slashed at some point, it was a bit naive for players to put all your hopes on it.
With that said, I think on the whole the way it's been handled is not very good. As Macchiavelli counsels, do nice things over a long period of time but try to hit people only once with bad stuff, instead of continually rubbing it in. When Slashing Grace got the nerf, it would have been better to do the same to Fencing Grace with an FAQ/errata. Clearly, it was going to happen at some point in the far future; why not save people the anguish of rebuilding characters AGAIN by just changing it all at the same time. That way people go through this mess only once.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Something that should not be forgotten in this whole DEX to damage in melee discussion, no matter which feats or classes are involved, is, that there is already a complete class since the APG, the first core line splat book published, which gets DEX to damage on ranged attacks which are also touch attacks and can use deadly aim.
Not to mention that there´s an archetype giving CHA to damage a limited time per day on first level, what is an incredibly strong dip for any CHA centered class, since you still hit touch attack and the "limited" is raisable per feats, CHA enhancements and items.
I never saw someone complain about that like the complaints and stuff going on about DEX to damage in melee.
Personaly, i find the most complaints about DEX to damage overrated.
Problems with the swashbuckler class come from different class inherent mechanics and those are most likely never subject to change.
Looking at the amount of feats needed for most DEX to damage stuff, it doesn´t concern me at all. Neither were the felt higher AC or reflex save a problem in any game i witnessed.
It´s just a different playstyle which doesn´t seem to please some vocal people.
That said i wish there were more errata for player companions, especially working in favor of players and diversity.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Something that should not be forgotten in this whole DEX to damage in melee discussion, no matter which feats or classes are involved, is, that there is already a complete class since the APG, the first core line splat book published, which gets DEX to damage on ranged attacks which are also touch attacks and can use deadly aim.
Right and that class has gone through similar nerfs because of the same exact reason. If you are complaining that Paizo isn't inconsistent in that regard then you sure as hell helping your case. And mind you I think your right.
Two bad that leaves us with three ways to use your off hand and get dex to damage.
How many ways are there for spellcasters to hurt things by the way?
Two bad that leaves us with three ways to use your off hand and get dex to damage.
How many ways are there for spellcasters to hurt things by the way?
As many as we can imagine. And that's the way it should be.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I believe the flaire's have been errata'd to specifically count as not being there.
True, but it does nerf the flavor (and in the case of the tankard of the cheerful duelist I designed (and wish was PFS legal) specifically nerfs the reason it works the way it does.)
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I believe the flaire's have been errata'd to specifically count as not being there.True, but it does nerf the flavor (and in the case of the tankard of the cheerful duelist I designed (and wish was PFS legal) specifically nerfs the reason it works the way it does.)
In all fairness I imagine the vast majority of GMs would allow you to have a mug in your hand despite the ruling. Unless you're trying to gain some mechanical advantage from it.
At least up here and in online play, GMs just do not enforce the rules THAT stringently.
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In all fairness I imagine the vast majority of GMs would allow you to have a mug in your hand despite the ruling. Unless you're trying to gain some mechanical advantage from it.
At least up here and in online play, GMs just do not enforce the rules THAT stringently.
Having played at conventions and online (both VTT and PbP), the vast majority of GMs are more concerned with 'making sure the trains run on time'.
So as long as someone isn't busting out truly insane damage that defies believably attainable numbers, most GMs are likewise willing to let a thing slide rather than niche case the bejesus out of something as happens here on the forums in Society discussion threads.
There are usually too many things going on at a table to pull a 'mid-play audit', especially when trying to cram a five hour scenario into four hours and the doors close at the four hour point and the trespassing arrests begin.
This being said, the worst offenders of 'niche case-ism' have been players, after the GM said 'Okay, we'll let that slide and look at it after the slot to see how that works', the player continues to argue the point, despite the fact that the rest of the table is decidedly ready to move on.
This has happened several times at tables I've been at in all three forms (Physical table, Virtual Table, Play-by-Post).
EDIT: True story, at Gen Con last year, I was playing my -1, who I was pretty comfortable with (having gotten him to L6) and the GM asked if I'd considered *all* modifiers to my attacks (TWF plus appropriate weapons plus natural attack minus fighting defensively) because my 'hit' numbers seemed abnormally *low*. Die rolling low doesn't help, but I hadn't taken into account two party buffs because I'd missed them going 'active'.
Didn't argue the point, after the slot found out we were both wrong and both right (one of the buffs didn't count because of stacking issues, but I'd missed the other one...)
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In all fairness I imagine the vast majority of GMs would allow you to have a mug in your hand despite the ruling. Unless you're trying to gain some mechanical advantage from it.
Just drink everything and then drop the mug. The accidental god is against alchohol abuse. Clay mugs shattering and tin mugs getting dented are all part of his plan.
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Just drink everything and then drop the mug. The accidental god is against alchohol abuse. Clay mugs shattering and tin mugs getting dented are all part of his plan.
In all fairness I imagine the vast majority of GMs would allow you to have a mug in your hand despite the ruling. Unless you're trying to gain some mechanical advantage from it.
If the clay mug shatters in the middle of a Society combat, how does one drink the next round?
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So as long as someone isn't busting out truly insane damage that defies believably attainable numbers, most GMs are likewise willing to let a thing slide rather than niche case the bejesus out of something as happens here on the forums in Society discussion threads.
That's my experience, too. But just replace "damage" with "ridiculous". As in things like causing enemies to become shaken then immediately flee, or being able to detect almost anything at will at level 1, or getting 6+ attacks per round between a hunter and a pet. In my experience GMs don't care what the player does, the player just does it, and the GM just accepts it because in general GMs have a good idea of what is balanced or doable. When it's outside of that range, then someone cares.
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If the clay mug shatters in the middle of a Society combat, how does one drink the next round?Just drink everything and then drop the mug. The accidental god is against alchohol abuse. Clay mugs shattering and tin mugs getting dented are all part of his plan.
In all fairness I imagine the vast majority of GMs would allow you to have a mug in your hand despite the ruling. Unless you're trying to gain some mechanical advantage from it.
Quick Draw.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Bondi Junction
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My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.
Sorry for the Thread necromancy but HINT: At 6th level take a level in Aldori Swordlord prestige class - trust me you will thank me for it ...
For a magus its not that big a deal, the damage output from your shocking grasp is passable.
I am of the opinion that it's not an ability worth having to wait half my PCs career to get. The PC (who is likely at least partially a martial character) will be stuck with poor damage output through those lower levels.
So the magus burst damage output is only "passable" for you? :)
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My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.Sorry for the Thread necromancy but HINT: At 6th level take a level in Aldori Swordlord prestige class - trust me you will thank me for it ...
For Deft Strike? Assuming it too doesn't get nerfed, I guess it's alright, but not sure I want to waste a feat on Dazzling Display in order to qualify. He only has a 10 Cha, so my intimidate might not ever be that great.
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For Deft Strike? Assuming it too doesn't get nerfed, I guess it's alright, but not sure I want to waste a feat on Dazzling Display in order to qualify. He only has a 10 Cha, so my intimidate might not ever be that great.My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.Sorry for the Thread necromancy but HINT: At 6th level take a level in Aldori Swordlord prestige class - trust me you will thank me for it ...
That's why all the cool Magi get Bruising Intellect.
Nope don't have it, and would have to use a feat to get it.Clearly, you aren't cool.
I hope everyone realizes that I was just being silly with that "all the cool kids" phrasing. There are plenty of cool Magi that don't take Bruising Intellect.
In regular games you can pick up another Trait by taking on a Drawback rather than by spending a feat, but I'm not sure if that is an option in PFS.