The sin of lust and Arshea


Rise of the Runelords


So I've been keeping track of each of my players sins (perhaps a bit more so than the AP suggests but I intend to have them play a bigger role in the AP, giving bonuses/ penalties to will saves of the associated schools) and one of my players was debating with me just how many lust points he should have.

This player took Shayliss up on her offer back in Burnt Offerings and then proceeded to have secret nightly dalliances with her as well. He's from Magnimar and jokes about having a House of Welcome "favored customer" card. So just recently, he managed to acquire ownership of the House of Welcome (after an impressive line of trade-offs and deals) and plans to set up several benefits for the employees including hiring tutors, setting up savings accounts (Fantasy 401Ks!) with the temple of Abadar for each of them as well as arranging to construct a shrine to Arshea and hire a full time cleric (he did get a generosity point for this).

Said character is a devout worshiper of Arshea (Empyreal lord of freedom, beauty, and sexuality) and to a lesser degree Lymnieris (empyreal lord of prostitution, rites of passage, and virginity) and argues that because his religion does not see sex as a sinful act but rather an act of love that he should have very few or no Lust points but rather several Love points.

I'm having trouble deciding how to assign his points and any advice would be appreciated!


heh heh. sounds good to me. Open sexuality is one of those sins that's only sinful if you think it is.

Say a worshiper of Calistria seduces a married cleric of Erastil. Well, the cleric probably loses his powers, and now his marriage is on the rocks. Now let's say the same Calistrian seduces a married cleric of Arshea. Nothing happens! Well, if the Arshean is Lawful, that might be a Chaotic act (breaking marriage vows, if strictly monogamous, which would be weird for an Arshean, but Lawful Arshean clerics are already weird), but it's not an Evil one.

Pretty cool, huh? One ethos sees the act as sinful, the other does not. Isn't polytheism fun?

I'm surprised there isn't a 'Rasputin-like' sect somewhere in Golarion, where the clerics or other religious do weird or gross things in exchange for spiritual enlightenment. See Kapalika for a possible example. Maybe that's one way to play a Neutral cleric of Rovagug.

Anyway, one angle for a 'House of Welcome' to be less Calistrian and more Arshean is to check out the movie The Sessions. Makes it less about the exchange of money and more about the act, yeah?


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I had to consider how to rule on things like this myself.
In the end I decided to trust my guy about the reasons behind the PC actions.

In the situation you mention above, my first question is, Why does the player know the Lust tracker score?

As for how the points are tallied, I'd continue as you are - the PCs actions, even though GOOD, do make him more prone to Lust, which I think is the real point to the tracking.

His acceptance and continuance of a relationship with Shayliss make him suspect. Shayliss is entering into the relationship not due to Love or a belief in open and free sexuality, she seeks out a PC due to jealousy about the attention her sister is receiving. Shayliss is trying to use sex as a weapon to get back at her sister and attract the attention of her parents. A worshiper of Arshea should really have nothing to do with sex for that reason unless the character was going to lengths to educate her about Arshea - Shayliss' behavior in this regard, her reasons behind her actions should probably be abhorrent to a follower of Arshea.

Grand Lodge

Seeing as how the magic that's going to be affecting them is of Thassilonian origin, and Thassilonians viewed wonton sexual activity as a sin, in conjunction with the Lorax's points on Shayliss' motivations, I think you should stay the course for it.


Lorax, He knows about the sin/virtue points because he's run the AP with me and another group a few years ago.

And tbh, the reasoning behind his actions and well, his future actions certainly will decide where his points go. Regarding Shayliss's reasons for seducing him, I don't think he should get sins because of an NPCs backstory and emotions. That said, how he reacts in the near future really will tell.

Shayliss has been mentioning having dinner with her family and he's been stalling giving her an answer. They've just learned about Katrine and Banny Harker's fates and as they were heading out to Habe's, Shayliss ran out in the pouring rain to ask him what was happening. He joked about acting like he didn't see her (just joking, he did go talk to her), mentioning how awkward and hard it is to look at her after seeing her sister's body so mangled. So really, a lot depends on how he acts when they get back to Sandpoint.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I was more thinking of how does the player know what his character's "Lust" tally (or any other sin for that matter) stands at, but your answer makes me take a dim view of the PCs actions and motivations. But you have to be the judge of the players actual actions.

If he is familiar with RotRL and the idea of sin tracking, deciding to play a follower of Arshea and Lymnieris smacks of trying to blue the line and behave in Lust driven ways without any associated campaign penalties.

I think his wanton and lascivious behavior, regardless of his motives makes him more susceptible to the sin of Lust. Unless you believe that a particular act is done out of actual universal love, feel free to give tick marks next to his Lust sin tally.

For what it's worth, Arshea has both Love and Lust as subdomains.


I feel like it's probably a little of both. I don't think he planned exactly on worshiping the "free love" empyreal lords just to get away without lust points but I think it's up to debate. I'm probably going to ignore the more standard instances (continued relations with Shayliss, visits to the Pixie's Kitten) and only consider the more unusual ones.

For example: One other player frequently flirts with every male npc she sees and was even doing the do with Aldern before he skipped town and as such only got one or two lust points (mostly because nearly all the other npcs turned her down or thought she was joking) but when she slept with Orik while IN THISTLETOP with potential enemies still running around I gave her a lust point because it seemed excessive and possibly risky (Orik was only helping them because they agreed to pay him).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Ms. Pleiades touched on this idea a bit - "Sins" as relates to the scope of this AP is somewhat subjective.

Thassilonian Sins and Virtues are framed through the lens of Lissala and the Peacock Spirit, both decidedly Lawful. By focusing on the physical aspects of the Love-Lust spectrum, the character is, certainly by the point of view of ancient, Thassilonians, engaging in Lust, and really its their opinion that is the one that matters here.

Is the character also engaging in philosophical discussions with Shayliss and the sex workers at the Kitten about the nature of Arshea? Trying to convert them?

I'm not trying to suggest that the PC is evil or bad, or that the player is doing something wrong - personally I think that this is an interesting course of events, but it is one that may not be the easiest to play out at all tables. In the end you have to run it in a way that fits the framework of the environment and also is fun for both you and (at least in the long run) to the player.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lust =/= just having a lot of sex. Lust is intense desire for whatever, whether that is sex, luxury power or blood. While English language strongly considers lust to about sexual desire, its just about desire really.

So yeah, like you guys already said, its pretty much about reasoning for the character's actions, though yeah, sounds annoying that player takes character to campaign where he knows it will cause arguments :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What about the quality of his relationships? Shayliss, if he is knowingly enabling her jealousy, then that might be a sin of Sloth (because he is just letting her get away with it, not to mention hypocrisy- it would not be an act of love to help someone darken their heart) if not lust. Similarly, if he willfully acts in an irresponsible way thinking
his faith renders him immune to the sin of lust, then that might be a sin of pride. However, if his plans in taking care of his employees are indicative of how he is treating his intimate relations, then he may not be guilty of any of these sins.

I think what will differentiate sin from free love is the absence of love- when it involves a betrayal., viewing somebody as an object, or activity without considering the consequences.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Isn't this just an argument about semantics? I mean, the Thassilonian Sin of Lust is the corrupted Thassilonian Virtue of Love. Runeforge doesn't care if you're aligned with the Sin or the Virtue, only that you're aligned with one or the other, so your Arshean would have bonuses in the Lust wing and penalties in the Gluttony and Greed wings, plus any other bonus or penalties you deem fit due to alignment to that Sin/Virtue.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Also. While the Runelords are evil, there is actually NOT any "evil" mechanics tied to the sins they're associated with. Overindulgence in any of them (some more than others) MIGHT lead a PC to become evil (or chaotic, for that matter), but there's no game mechanic that says "if you sin you become evil."


Actually, isn't that a valid sub-question? Would someone with a Virtue gain a benefit from the wing from which their Sin is derived? Or would they suffer a penalty? (Might they end up penalized in all three wings due to the association of the virtue with the sin, thus causing the opposing wings to still act adversely?)

It is said no good deed goes unpunished... ;)


Following his logic, if i follow any murder deity, i will not sin when killing someone. So a follower of gorum would never do any wrathful sins?

IMO, if he follows a god of lust/sex/prostitution/fertility and does indulge in lustful acts, he should earn more lust points than someone who doesn't.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Tangent: I suppose you could do that, but I think the idea is that the Virtues and Sins are intertwined in a way more complex that simple "positive/negative." The Virtues of Rule were corrupted by the Runelords to become the Deadly Sins, but echoes of their original power still reverberate within Runeforge. (Also, I would have a problem telling a player 'sorry, you actually love people more than you lust after them, so you get penalized here, clearly you should have slept around more.' I like that the gnome rogue who wooed an NPC and asked her to marry him has the same benefits/penalties as the elven warrior who ended up hooking up with several NPCs for the night, even before I infected her with Carcosan Cooties. But hey, your game, your decisions.)

Shadowkras: I think it depends on the intent behind your murders, just as it depends upon the Gorumite's battle actions. Assuming your Skinsaw cultist isn't being particularly wrathful in the murders, isn't eating the bodies (gluttony), isn't robbing them blind (greed), isn't leaving behind a calling card (pride), isn't targeting them for past slights (envy), isn't involving sexual depravity in any way (lust), or just waiting for someone to come into a trap that you've laid for them (sloth), then no, your murders are not earning you sin points. Similarly, I can probably construct a non-Sinful Gorumite. Again, if the player is arguing that he's aligned with a different Sin than you've tracked, then I'd probably listen to him, and change things so that they're consistent as the player suggets.

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