On a challenge, I once ran an all wizard party through the first book of Rise if the Runelords using the Pathfinder system. The challenge was based on the idea that wizards cannot survive the low levels without martial characters to protect them - once they pass a certain threshold (passing Book 1 was the agreed upon threshold), then they can hold their own for the rest of the campaign. Meanwhile, everyone agreed that martial characters would not be able to survive the high levels in their own - but I haven't tested it.
For RotRL, the all wizard party did just fine in Book 1, and even started to trivialize some encounters by the time they were level 3.
I'm curious to how an all wizard party would do in Book 1 of RotRL using 5e rules and a 5e conversion of the campaign. Are wizards still dependent on other classes to survive low levels? How would martials do in Book 6? Are non-casters still dependent on casters at high levels?
What are your thoughts, analyses, and opinions? Anyone have any play experience with this?
It's pretty interesting, but there are a lot of things at play here.
For instance, with at least one feat, you can increase your armor class significantly. Then there are spells like mage armor and shield that, at least with some preparation or free spell slots, can increase your survivability.
But also consider the differentiation between 3rd edition (et al) and 5th edition, vis r vis efficacy in combat of a wizard versus a martial. No difference in "attack bonus", and cantrips even out the damage disparity (while offering skirmisher style tactics).
But all in all, every character has a rough time of it for the first 2 levels or so (everyone fears a stray critical hit). What I wonder is what builds people would employ for survivability. The Elven Blade Singer archetype from SCAG might me a go to for some.
I think it works well in 5e with bladesinger and abjuration, that way you have a tank-y wizard at range by level 3, and a decent AC dpr type. With cantrips being so damn useful I think wizards can make a go of it in the first book, though level 1 will be rough.
There are three HUGE advantages: short rests to heal HP and regain slots, long rest to regain full HP, and backgrounds giving skills important for adventuring. Investing in armor is not a bad choice either - a dwarven wizard could easily use their feats to be less effective at casting but have crazy high AC and use an abjurer's ward to inflate their HP something crazy. A high elf bladesinger has ranged and melee attacks. A necromancer would be useful, same with transmuter - both give additional defense. A flexible roguish illusionist would work well. I think that they will have it tougher than Pathfinder the entire length, but by the final battle they are incredibly strong.
Spell-less classes are more useful at the same time. They are really hard to actually kill, and all can hit like a truck. A fighter is a murder machine and a barbarian using polearm master and sentinel is brutal. Even a rogue is incredibly useful and capable, thieves being great at traditional rogue things while swashbuckler is very effective in combat along with face skills and mastermind is kind of nuts giving advantage to basically everything as a bonus action. They are also more resistant to spells, and spells are a lot weaker... So really any optimized party would be fine I think.
Well at the finale of Rise of the Runelords the adult blue dragon will likely be harder than a 20th level spellcaster and Karzoug is very spell limited by comparison.
The "easy" conversion would be a transmutation themed lich - but you are still talking someone with half the HP and less than half the save bonuses against the party. His spells have lower DCs, and he won't have resistance to physical damage from magical weapons. Lair and legendary actions mean that he will still get his licks in, and the giants and dragon will easily distract the party away from him.
Letting a rogue or fighter focus their attacks on him with others tackling the giants and dragon means he will go down pretty quick.
My party is facing Karzoug next session and I pumped him up significantly to make him a challenge for my party of 7 16th level characters. I figure he's one of the most powerful wizards from an ancient civilization and the MM archmage doesn't quite cut it.
ROTRL Final Battle:
He's sitting at 300 hp thanks to max class hps, implanted Ioun Stones, the Tough feat and a 20 Con, has legendary actions to cast a cantrip, use a "Midas Touch" or make a melee attack. He also has lair actions of Runewell Surge (re-gain 3d8 hps and 1d4+4 spell slots), Leng Bubble (all creatures in a 10' radius sphere must make DC 15 Wisdom saves or take 3d10 psychic damage and be Confused for 1 round) and Arcane Convergence (Cast 1 spell up to third level without expending spell slots)
He's also got a custom "Diamond Form" spell that conveys resistance to all damage except Psychic and Thunder (he's actually vulnerable to Thunder, but uses the resistance granted by his Transmuter's Stone to help mitigate that) and picked Shield and Misty Step as his "free casting" spells for the high level wizard abilities. He can also crush his Transmuter's Stone to fully heal himself once during the fight.
He's also still got the flight granted by his robes, so I expect him to be airborne, which is a risky tactic for the PCs in Eye of Avarice, since a failed concentration check could send them plummeting into the flames (Outside of the Warlock/Bard who has Wings of Flying, but she's a ranged character anyway.) and will likely have him cast Globe of Invulnerability on himself once he's in the air.
I'm actually concerned I may have gone overboard, but the party already knows from past experience that killing Rune Giants frees the Storm Giants serving them, which will turn things in their favor pretty quickly. Plus the Warlock/Bard has Circle of Power due to Magical Secrets, which is pretty much the ultimate party defense spell against mages.
My party is facing Karzoug next session and I pumped him up significantly to make him a challenge for my party of 7 16th level characters. I figure he's one of the most powerful wizards from an ancient civilization and the MM archmage doesn't quite cut it.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm thinking of testing the final book with only non-casters to see how they do. What kind of wealth and magic items do your non-caster PCs have at this point?
Our 13th level party of 6 should be fighting Karzoug next session. So I did NOT read the spoiler!
But in Kingmaker, I had a dwarf barbarian 1/magus 6 that I want to rebuild as a mountain dwarf outlander abjuration wizard with Toughness. Proficiency in battle axe is also a key component to the original character concept, so that's nice, even if after 5th level, shocking grasp is going to be better.
My party is facing Karzoug next session and I pumped him up significantly to make him a challenge for my party of 7 16th level characters. I figure he's one of the most powerful wizards from an ancient civilization and the MM archmage doesn't quite cut it.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm thinking of testing the final book with only non-casters to see how they do. What kind of wealth and magic items do your non-caster PCs have at this point?
The party is
Spoilered due to plot-related equipment:
:
Half-Orc Alchemist (Path of Antimony) 16 (This a home-brewed conversion I have linked somewhere on these boards.) He's got the +2 wolf-motif half-plate from Arkhryst's lair, a +1 shield, +1 adamantine longsword, a sihedron ring (which replaced his cloak of protection) and Gloves of Dueling (grant Dueling Fighting Style and the Parry monster ability)
Half-Orc Fighter (Battlemaster) 16: He's wearing Vioridan's fullplate +2, the girdle of frost giant strength from Arkryst's lair, Vioridan's Shield of Bashing +2, and wielding The Chain of Penitence, a magic flail which does +1d6 Radiant damage and allows him to behave as one size larger when trying to shove an opponent prone. After Runeforge, this became a Dominant Weapon.
Half-Elf Rogue (Assassin)15/Fighter 1: He's wearing elven chain +1 (house-ruled to allow full dex bonus to AC), a shield +2 (from Arkrhyst's lair), a sihedron ring, and Blackspike, a magical rapier that does 1d6 additional acid damage, crits on 19 or 20 and can once per short rest be commanded to deal continuous 1d6 acid damage after a hit. After Runeforge, this became a Dominant Weapon.
Human Barbarian (Wolf Totem) 8/Druid (Moon) 4/Ranger (Hunter) 4: She's wearing Bracers of Armor and The Frost Giant's Heart (based off the Belt of Dwarvenkind. Grants +2 Strength, Resistance to Cold, the ability to speak Giant and you count as one size larger when grappling or resisting a grapple) and switches off between a Giant Slayer greatsword or Lady Athroxis' Flametongue, depending on the opponent.
Human Cleric (Light) 16: Mithral fullplate, sihedron ring, Pearl of Power, shield +1, and The Flame of the Dawnflower (Flametongue scimitar that can be switched to dealing radiant damage and emanating a Daylight spell by expending a use of Channel Divinity) After Runeforge, this became a Dominant Weapon.
Human Wizard (Fire Elementalist) 16: Another home-brewed conversion. Club+2, Robe of Runes, Sihedron Ring, Rod of Icy Transfiguration (conversion of a Cold Elemental Metamagic Rod), Wand of Magic Missile and bunch of scrolls.
Halfling Warlock (GoO)2/Bard (Lore) 14: Wings of Flying, Sihedron Ring, Rod of the Pact Keeper +1. After Runeforge, this became a Dominant Weapon.
I made the Sihedron Rings require Attunement (since they also function as a Ring of Protection), but allowed the Sihedron Medallions to work without it. Any party members without a ring are wearing a medallion currently (and they've got about a dozen spares of each after working their way through Xin-Shalast and the Pinnacle of Avarice.)
I cut back on a lot of the treasure in the AP, but they've still got more items than they have attunement slots. I also converted over to 5E right at the start of Chapter 5, so a party that spent the whole game in 5E might look very different. (I did take away lot of their items in the conversion, leaving them with their "iconic" gear and some utility stuff.) The Warlock/Bard was actually a Dual-Cursed Oracle of the Dark Tapestry in Pathfinder. We re-flavored her Bardic abilities as her twisting fate rather than giving encouragement. It worked out pretty well.
Hell if you have seven PCs versus 300HP makes more sense. It'd be better to give resistances/immunities to make it feel more fair, but that's a rough thing to DM.
And I remember that alchemist homebrew. I thought it was cool, how has it been working out?
Hell if you have seven PCs versus 300HP makes more sense. It'd be better to give resistances/immunities to make it feel more fair, but that's a rough thing to DM.
And I remember that alchemist homebrew. I thought it was cool, how has it been working out?
It's working out really well, so far. In combat he tends to be a front-liner, mutating and hasting himself to put him on-par with the party fighter. He mostly tosses bombs when he's out of mutations, needs to make a ranged attack or wants to use an enhanced bomb to inflict a status effect.
Outside of combat he uses his extracts for healing and utility.
Which is pretty much how I expected his Path to work. Hopefully someone will decide to play a Path of Arcana alchemist in a different campaign so I can see how that side of the class works.
As for Karzoug having 300 hps, the party managed (albeit with surprise) to kill a 300 hp Rune Giant before it got to act earlier in the campaign. Although a lot of that was due to the Rogue being able to use Assassinate (and the Battle Master using Commander's Strike on his turn to have him do it again.) Either way, killing a 300hp enemy is well within their ability.
We did 6 5th Edition Level 13 PCs vs Karzaug, the blue dragon, and 4 rune giants.
My hill dwarf Life cleric 12 (lost a level through DM shenanigans)
A human Divination wizard 13 blaster
An elf arcane trickster rogue 13 archer with some stabbing
A human hunter ranger 13 archer (he stabbed something once. Once.)
A half-orc barbarian berserker 13 with a greatclub of haste
A human eldritch knight fighter 13 with a flametongue
It was a tough fight, but no permanent deaths (I think I used revivify once on the wizard, but the poor berserker got trapped in a cube of force for the last dozen rounds of combat. There was no save! We really needed more teleportation magic. The wizard used his 7th level spell slot for something else, and "wasted" his disintegration on something else too. The berserker had a cloak of the mountebank, but used it to close with Big K and his dragon in round 1. OOPS!
