Thought this would be the most appropriate place for this; apologies if it's not.
I got on a nostalgic kick this last week and picked up copies of the original Dragonlance Chronicles trilogy and then the Icewind Dale trilogy. Haven't read them since the 90s. No big deal, I guess--except that I haven't touched a fantasy novel in over ten years, now. Fantasy novels were a huge part of my teenage years. Even beyond D&D, actually gaming, I consumed everything on which I could lay my hands. But there came a change.
I turned into kind of a snob. While I was in college, I got a taste for "literary" fiction. Don't get me wrong; there's a lot of horrible stuff being put out every day in that scene, too. But as I got my little bit of edumacation, I developed a love for good prose. Vibrant writing that jumps off the page. That doesn't rely on cliche. That speaks to the human condition. Lot of "literary" folks were doing that, and it really spoke to me. I's reading Denis Johnson and Sam Lipsyte and Joy Williams. Times were good.
But I couldn't find fantasy authors doing the same. I couldn't bear to read my old standbys anymore. Like, I couldn't finish Robert Jordan's WoT series--stopped, literally, a hundred pages from the end of the ninth or so book, wherever I was. Could do no more. RA Salvatore the same. I won't provide an exhaustive list of the foibles of my delicate tastes, and I'm not aiming to dump all over those guys or anybody else, but they turned into a big source of disappointment. So many writers did. For me. So many writers were writing about worlds I enjoyed, but via ponderous styles and uninspired ideas and a refusal or inability to speak to anything meaningful in real life, they lost me. I gave up.
The last fantasy novel I read was Martin's third Song of Ice & Fire entry. I actually didn't hate his prose, as I recall, but it was so long before the next came out that I'd been out of the game for too long. I didn't even try (though some tell me I saved myself some trouble there anyway; that's neither here nor there). I'd sadly gotten out of RPG's, and I spent almost ten years out of gaming. Truly a shame.
A few years ago, though, I found a small clutch of unpainted minis tucked away in the storage shed. I pulled them out and decided to paint them. Then I went looking for some D&D stuff. A few weeks later I was playing a 2nd Edition D&D game with some folks I met, forming my own Pathfinder group (I'd really liked 3.x and all), and beginning a ridiculous collection Pathfinder RPG books. Truly a blast.
I enjoy the core books, but that's mostly a matter of rules and the like. I really dig Golarion--[u]The Inner Sea World Guide[/u] set my imagination aflame again. I've enjoyed reading the Campaign Setting and Player Companion entries, or at least a number of them. But aside from enjoying gaming again and digging the setting fluff, I've found I absolutely love reading the AP modules. The adventures. I'm a weirdo and don't even read the story entries; I still feel a weird hangup about reading genre fiction. The adventures feel like technical writing in a weird way--it's all the marvelous world building and scenarios, the plot of the story, without the burdensome style and horrible characters and devices and cliches and all the awful that's branded on my mind from long ago.
But being the ever-flip flopping sort of fellow I am, I've started eyeing the Tales line. I'm wondering--would I like it better now? Would I be in the spirit again? Could things have improved? This is Pathfinder, and I really like Pathfinder. Should I take a chance? If so, which would be the book with which to start?
tl;dr
If you could just one (or two, or, say, a trilogy at most), which Pathfinder novel would you recommend to a book snob who loves the PFRPG and loves well-crafted prose and wants meaningful human conflict in his plots and hasn't read fantasy in over a decade?
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Pathfinder Tales novels are unapologetically pulpy and unapologetically genre.
If your literary tastes prevent you from recognizing an entertaining story because you don't like "genre fiction," they're unlikely to be something you like.
BTW, speaking both as someone with a lit degree and as a professional editor, if you won't read genre fiction, you're not a snob about quality, you're a snob about genre. There is plenty of genre fiction that's exquisitely well-written, and plenty of stuff in the literature section of bookstores that's terrible. (You learn quickly, when you work in publishing, that where a book sits in bookstores or on websites, and yes, even with which genre it gets tagged is more a function of what the publisher is willing to pay and how it intends to market the book than anything else.)
I advise you to get over it and stop depriving yourself of good reading experiences.
I'd recommend Nightglass. It's extremely atmospheric and gives good insight into a distinctly Golarion-ish culture.
Jessica, hi. Let me, first of all, thank you for your response.
But lol and/or yikes. I've had that version of this conversation far too many times; it's a needless argument. I'm not looking to have it again. I'm not looking to compare degrees and credentials. I came here meekly, admitted my snobbish shortcomings, shared my personal experience, and asked for a recommendation.
I agreed with you in advance that there's a lot of bad "literary" writing, and I'll happily agree with you that there's well-written genre fiction. I didn't come here looking to deride fantasy fiction or genre writing in general. Obviously I'm open to reading genre fiction. I started this thread, seeking recommendations for fantasy novels!
I recognize that genre labels are at best fluid and at worst arbitrary, but they make for useful guideposts, most the time. I feel compelled to throw the scare quotes on "literary" when referring to the style of writing it loosely identifies precisely because it's a problematic term, more accurately signifying a style or manner applicable to any genre. But when I use the phrase "literary fiction," or when I refer to "fantasy" or "sci-fi" or "romance" or whatever, I feel it gets us significantly nearer the ballpark of what I'm saying. To echo your choice of descriptors, "unapologetically" so.
At any rate, "genre" certainly need not be code for "bad." I identified in the post above some things I consider markers of successful writing, of an "entertaining story." It's more than plot points. Regardless of genre, deftly-crafted prose and exploration of the human condition are key for me. These are things that led me to stop reading fantasy years ago, though: I just couldn't find them. Where I came closest, reading authors that strayed toward sci-fi or the literary-friendly magical-realism end of the spectrum, I found better-crafted writing at times but never the kind of fantasy I wanted--D&D/medieval/high/whatever.
I'm not saying it didn't exist then or that it doesn't exist now. I simply couldn't find it. There's no reason it shouldn't exist. Indeed, I'm here looking for it again. I love the Pathfinder RPG and it's world, y'all are running a good show, and I genuinely do not know how I could've come at this any more politely or forthrightly. I just want to check out a Tales novel, and I'm hoping it'll be one that meets my criteria, or my wishlist, if you will, for good writing. So I shared and asked.
Again, thanks for responding. I really appreciate your recommendation--per its description Nightglass certainly seems ripe for introspection and discovery--but must confess too that I found your tone unnecessarily confrontational. A bit supercilious, honestly, though I'm sure we can laugh together at that since I'm the one talking about "literary" fiction, after all. :)
You have to take into account that the Tales line is not only genre fiction, but sub-genre fiction, i.e. Fantasy RPG novels. They primarily exist to show off the setting. That's why many of the Tales are not great, even when written by experienced, previously published authors. Some of them read as if they were rushed through editing. The best ones probably will not offer you anything new, only refreshed old fantasy tropes. Still, they can be enjoyable to read.
Nightglass by Liane Merciel is one of them. The Worldwound Gambit by Robin D. Laws is basically Ocean's 11 with demons. Death's Heretic by James Sutter deals with an atheist who's working for the church of Pharasma against his will. And Wendy N. Wagner's Skinwalkers has a former pirate trying to protect her clan against raiders.
However, if you want something akin to literary fiction in the fantasy genre, you should check out Steven Erikson's A Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen. It is 10 thick books long and the first one can be kind of hard to get into, but I rarely have read anything better in any genre.
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Honestly, if the kind of genre books you are familiar with is mostly D&D books such as Dragonlance and it's ilk, it is really not surprising that you would think "genre" and "bad writing" go together. The Wheel Of Time is also pretty bad on this front. Most people who read genre don't prioritize a flourishing prose - that is why authors such as Brandon Sanderson can become superbly popular with writing that is best described as "highly readable", because their stories and characters and worlds are so great.
If you are looking for Pathfinder tales with great writing, you will be disappointed.
However, I am happy to recommend some books that I thought had really good writing -
1) Anything by Robin Hobb - I would start with Assassin’s Apprentice. Hobb has a knack for writing characters in a way that brings them and their emotional world to life like no other author I know, and she makes you care deeply about the stories she tells. If you want a strongly emotional read, turn to her.
2) Patrick Rothfuss - his debut novel "The Name Of The Wind" doesn't have much to offer in terms of originallity, but his prose is vital and vibrant. My taste in music is pretty much confined to "I guess I listen to some of the bands my dad likes because I heard their music as a child", but Rothfuss can easily make me giddy with a description of someone playing a violin. Extremely fun book.
3) China Mievlle - an author of the subgenre "weird fiction", his books go beyond mere good writing and traverse to the realm of the experimental. He plays with the rythms of words and even with the shapes of the letters to make them work towards the themes of his book. His writing is readable yet strange, extremely original and , at times, playful.
4) Scott Lynch - I've only read one of his books, and very recently at that, but his writing certainly merits the descriptor "prose". His style is somewhat smug, but in the right mood that can be very enjoyable.
1) Anything by Robin Hobb - I would start with Assassin’s Apprentice. Hobb has a knack for writing characters in a way that brings them and their emotional world to life like no other author I know, and she makes you care deeply about the stories she tells. If you want a strongly emotional read, turn to her.
I'll emphatically second that recommendation.
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It's opinions like this that keep animation in the ghetto here in America.
I could not recommend Death's Heretic or any of the Jeggare books more higher.
I would make one other suggestion. Stop thinking of the Pathfinder Tales as a candidate for a fine wine club, and think of them in another venue, windows to getting immersive views of life in various areas of Golarion. These books I mentioned do a pretty good job of it. So do most of the others I've read.
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I think I get what you're talking about, Marvin. There are a lot of authors out there who can plot with the best of them, but when you try to read their work out loud it's like gargling sawdust. (As opposed to William Shakespeare, of whom I once heard it said that the reason his plays are still performed so much is that his writing tastes good in actors' mouths.) So here are a few other recommendations for authors whose prose IMO won't feel like sawdust in your mouth when you read it aloud.
Try anything by the late John M. Ford, although most of his stuff is out of print and may be hard to find. The exceptions are "The Dragon Waiting" and his two Trek books, "The Final Reflection" and "How Much for Just the Planet?" He was a remarkably good prose stylist, which came in part from his theater background IMHO.
Another eminently narratable fantasy author is N. K. Jemisin. I read most of the prologue to her latest, "The Fifth Season," out loud to Loving Spouse, and yeah--"tasted good" is an apt description.
I guess it depends on what your standard is (dropped a preposition at the end of the sentence there, sorry). If you're looking for Melville or Tolstoy or Dickens in the Pathfinder Tales section - you perhaps have too high an expectation. It's like going to the Cooper dealership and expecting to find a Mercedes or a Tesla.
For what they are supposed to be - pieces of fantasy fiction that showcase the setting for Pathfinder - Pathfinder Tales does the job admirably well. Dave Gross isn't Tolstoy, but it's a competent writer given the material at hand and the publishing constraints under which he works. If you adjust your expectations to something less grand - you'll find the Tales are enjoyable and fun within the constraints of the material.
And, as for Jessica's response, there is a bit of a tone of classism in the question and your explanation of it. Perhaps that wasn't what you intended, but I can understand why some might take it with that tone.
Marvin,
I hear you. I got the impression from the old D&D books that authors were chucking their home games straight into the mediocre prose factory. Pathfinder Tales are not like that.
I've only read Sutter and Gross so far, but that's because of fundage restrictions. I lurves me some good prose, but characters are my literary focus. With those guys, I have not had the disappoint. They've also brought Golarion alive, which has helped tremendously in my games. When more disposable moolah occurs, I plan to explore other PT authors.
For outstanding fantasy prose, I haven't found better than Gene Wolfe. Heck, his prose is so good, sometimes you can't even understand what's going on! And he does not make up words, no matter what anyone says. Barry Hugart also has some lovely typing. Bridge of Birds is Hugart's best, while Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is outstanding. For drunk/drugged reading, Wolfe's Peace works because it's incomprehensible sober.
Hope this helps.
Treppa
but must confess too that I found your tone unnecessarily confrontational. A bit supercilious, honestly, though I'm sure we can laugh together at that since I'm the one talking about "literary" fiction, after all. :)I'm not really interested in laughing at your shallow and uneducated condescension. You came in with a supercilious post, expect supercilious responses from people who actually understand publishing.
Bye!
This seems to me belittling and groundless--and a little personal, dunnit? The Twitter-shaming is certainly kind of awful. I think you know that, though. As someone I've seen admirably ringing the bell for inclusiveness, you surely appreciate the open exchange of ideas. I just, you know, don't like fiction that fails to do certain things. That's my opinion; it holds no bearing on what others like. It's not objective. My opinion differs from yours, and that's fine by me! I don't understand why it seems to be a problem for you.
Since you've signed off on the conversation I guess there's no point in saying it again, but I feel purposefully misrepresented. I came here in good faith, acknowledging from the outset limited knowledge and peculiar tastes, and explicitly asked for advice on expanding my base. I said I wanted to read some genre fiction; you excoriated me for not wanting to read genre fiction.
Just doesn't compute.
Again, while I stand by my opinions and requests, I apologize for whatever offense I've caused you. I've had nothing but pleasant interactions with Paizo staff prior to this, and it's certainly not my intent to incite cross-platform vitriol.
Best wishes to you.
Thanks for the recommendations, everyone!
That's two mentions for Nightglass, so I guess it's a definite possibility. "Ocean's 11 with demons" made me giggle; certainly sounds fun. Is the worth reading in a certain order vis a vis the AP, or is it a moot point since those product lines are, as I understand it, quite separate?
I've enjoyed Sutter's work on the RPG books, so Death's Heretic could be a great starting point as well.
Sanderson is definitely the name I hear most frequently these days. General consensus always seems to be to start with the original Mistborn trilogy, right?
I've shied away from that in part because I indeedily-doodily am looking for more "D&D style" than what it sounds like that offers. I really don't think the (sub) genre is outside the possibility of greatness. Again, it's why I'm here. But anyway.
Robb is a name I remember, but I don't think I ever read her stuff. I think teenage-me had that pegged as too romantic a series of books, or something. Though I could be confusing it. Anyway, she'll be right at the jumbled top of my list.
Anybody have opinions, one way or another, or recommendations on C. J. Cherryh? I remember enjoying some of her sci-fi-ier stuff (Faded Sun trilogy, I think?) but never really got into her more fantasy-oriented stuff.
Thanks again, everyone; I'm taking note of all these suggestions, though I don't have a response beyond "thanks!" for each of them. You've given me a number of things to check out. I really appreciate it.
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I suspect it's just hard to make recommendations because fundamentally, the styles are so different. Not that one is better than the other, but they're just trying to accomplish different things. I think people often fail to appreciate how difficult it can be to produce good pop entertainment; you have to balance pacing, action, and overall story structure as much higher priorities than litfic typically needs to care about, and then find ways of shoehorning character development and thematic resonance into a pretty tight word count, ideally while wrapping it in not-painful prose. When you see somebody who can pull that off (and fwiw I'd agree that both Barry Hughart and Scott Lynch do it really well, albeit in very different directions), it's pretty amazing to behold.
But it's a totally different thing. So that request can be a little like saying "I like classical symphonies; can you recommend a good '80s power pop song?"
Well... that's a tall order, and not because Blondie's better or worse than Beethoven. It's just such a different sensibility that it's hard to guess what's going to come off as a "good" pop song to somebody who's previously been tuned to different rhythms, cadences, and structures.
And then when you're talking about pulp fiction, it's often even rawer than that. Pop fiction (including fantasy) is, IMO, like pop music; some of it is genuinely innovative and brilliant, while some of it is purposefully engineered as lowest-common-denominator cash grabs (which takes its own kind of talent, I think, but probably not the kind you're looking for), but in general it's aiming for a pretty broad audience. It's not going to try to bust your ears open either way.
Pulp fiction (which I personally suck at, but admire greatly when done well, because that stuff is hard) is like punk. It's raw. It's emotive. There's brilliance and innovation there, too, but lots of it relies on pretty simple chords and repetitive structures that work on propulsive energy and animal thunder to achieve their effect. It's often not polished, and sometimes its practitioners scoff at excessive polish because they feel like it gets in the way of the intensity, and it can come off as unpleasantly dissonant and clumsy if your ear's not tuned to that style.
But again, doesn't mean the Sex Pistols are better or worse than Beethoven. Just means they're doing something different -- and that it's even harder to make an accurate recommendation for someone whose preferences run toward the latter.
Having said all that (and exhausted my Strained Analogy Allowance for the day), the good news is, there are free sample chapters available for all the Tales novels, and also free web fiction stories from the same authors (as well as many others), which might be helpful in deciding which authors' styles are most congruent with your personal tastes. :)
This is probably off the requested path, but if you are interested in some good stories that are also from the pulp fiction world, I would suggest Northwest of Earth from C.L. Moore. Who I bring up because you mentioned C.J. Cherryh - who happens to have written the intro to the book.
I won't kid you, the storylines are generally standard fare for the pulp genre at their core - space mysteries that are horrific and strange plus rugged hero archetype as your vehicle. But what really makes them pop is Moore's way with words. Characters are descriptive in way that makes them visually crisp and vibrant; the places feel vivid - strongly atmospheric; and the monsters are done in such a way as to be both menacingly eldritch and striking at times.
In a more fantasy vein, try Black Gods Kiss - which comprises her stories about Jirel of Joiry. Set in a sort of medieval France, it's probably could be said that the plots aren't that varied again. But again, it is the moody environment she creates and the characters she details that make it a good read with the same visual details.
It's a difficult question to ask and even more difficult to answer. You've listed a lot of what you don't like... but it's hard to know what you DO.
It seems you've tried Salvatore (my favorite writer), Jordan (Who I disliked), Martin (Who I think is overrated) and Classic Dragonlance... and dislike them.
That's really the pillars of the rpg style fantasy writers right there. They are the go-to celebrated writers of the genre... If you don't like them, then either A) we need to know WHY you don't like them... or B) not have much hope for the genre.
There isn't even one reason to dislike them... they are all vastly different styles and cover a wide range of literary talent...
As for Pathfinder Tales? I find them fairly similar to the Salvatore style of writing... but more self-contained. Salvatore tends to write for trilogies, and the rest are part of these huge epic sprawl tales... Pathfinder Tales aren't that. They are individual books that describe a single adventure, then they end. Sometimes the characters show up later for other adventrues.. but they are also self-contained.
Myself, I love heroic fantasy. As such I really disliked Nightglass. I didn't like the characters in it. The Jeggarre books? I love those.
Would you?
I don't really know. It sounds like your looking for something in the wrong place. The books are more of a snapshot of the setting to help players understand the world... and not high literature on their own. They are fun and entertaining... that's what I look for from a book.
Liane, I like the music analogy, but I'd turn it on its side a little and suggest that 1800's symphonic music and 80s pop probably are doing as many of the same things as not, in the grander scheme. They're both playing songs (to put it as dully as possible; jeez, maybe I am a moron). It's to the audience, both perceived and actual, I'd turn for differentiation: Some people like a fundamentally similar product composed one way more than the other. So they produce it or consume it to suit needs and tastes.
Or maybe not, I don't know, lol. But I'd like to take that notion and slap it right down on the novel. Except in experimental sorts of cases they're all doing the same basic thing in telling a prolonged narrative in prose. Lot of different ways to do that, indeed! That's glorious, and I'm not here to hate on any particular style. Going back to the notion of genre fluidity, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have it all: Any boundary can be crossed, and intersections are everywhere. I guess I'm looking for that perfect intersection, if not of genres at least of styles.
I'm really disappointed this turned into the sort of thing where people (me too!) feel it necessary to defend the right of a person to enjoy a thing. I make idiosyncratic art intended for a fairly small audience. I'm deeply interested in others' art that also fits that bill. I get personal preference. There are things I think make writing good and things I think make it bad, and I've shared that not as any sort of gospel but only to try making clearer what I'd like to read (hasn't work as I'd hoped!). I've no need to convince anyone else that they need to feel the same.
Indeed, I greatly appreciate others' take on writing, even--sometimes especially--when it's critical of what I like. I identify most closely with literary fiction, as far general genre preference goes, but I think you're spot-on in identifying one of the problems with it in that a lack of plotting, of cause and effect or of consequence, makes for a lot of terrible writing. I find myself drawn to tightly-plotted or otherwise cleverly-structured work. "Literary" romances, mysteries, and war stories have been of particular interest to me because of this. And westerns; Cormac McCarthy's enough to get me locked down there all on his lonesome. If we want to blur the edges into another medium, I think the structure of comics like Watchmen and Maus place them among the greatest longer-form stories I've ever read.
At any rate, books that blend great story, great plot, with a high level of prose craftsmanship. That's the thing I want. I think I'm on the right track to finding it, thanks to everyone's recommendations. If I can find that from a high-fantasy, D&D-like sort of book, I'll be all the happier.
Thanks for the heads-up on the sample chapters. I may not be the right audience, but I'm still aiming to give it a try.
Thanks for mentioning Earthsea, Emmit. I didn't particularly enjoy Le Guin, years ago, when I read a very little, but I did think her a skilled writer. She seems like a great candidate to revisit.
And thanks, all, for the further recommendations! Aside from those couple Tales novels, right now, I'm kind of got Le Guin, Sanderson, and Hobb right at the top of the list, not necessarily in that order, but I'll definitely be keeping a list of everything.
Marvin,
I hear you. I got the impression from the old D&D books that authors were chucking their home games straight into the mediocre prose factory. Pathfinder Tales are not like that.
I've only read Sutter and Gross so far, but that's because of fundage restrictions. I lurves me some good prose, but characters are my literary focus. With those guys, I have not had the disappoint. They've also brought Golarion alive, which has helped tremendously in my games. When more disposable moolah occurs, I plan to explore other PT authors.
For outstanding fantasy prose, I haven't found better than Gene Wolfe. Heck, his prose is so good, sometimes you can't even understand what's going on! And he does not make up words, no matter what anyone says. Barry Hugart also has some lovely typing. Bridge of Birds is Hugart's best, while Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is outstanding. For drunk/drugged reading, Wolfe's Peace works because it's incomprehensible sober.
Hope this helps.
Treppa
Can't recommend Wolfe and Hughart enough. Wolfe was the first name that sprung to my mind when you mentioned "literary" fantasy. Start with the Book of the New Sun, a quadrilogy that starts with the Shadow of the Torturer. Also, Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea series is a must as well.
Wolfe's prose holds up against the best work in any genre, for me. We're lucky he chose SF.
Saying "his prose is so good, sometimes you can't even understand what's going on" made me look by him at first, lol, but gotta say I'm intrigued by The Book of the New Sun and the little bit I've read about Wolfe tonight. Could swear I recognize some of the artwork associated with that title, but I'm certain I've never read it. Making plans to do so soon.
Never take me seriously.
I'm too far down this rabbit hole not to take anything seriously.
Anybody have thoughts on David Farland's Runelord series? That popped in my head earlier. I remember enjoying it but associating it somehow with Robert Jordan's sort of oeuvre.
How about Lawrence Watt-Evans? I remember reading and enjoying the first Obsidian Chronicles book. Seems like something I might enjoy finishing, but that was so long ago I don't recall anything at all but snippets of plot.
Also, Sara Douglass? I know I read her first Axis/Wayfarer book (that cover art, be still my heart) and enjoyed it, but something tells me that might be barking up the wrong tree, at this point in my life.
A note: Aside from the Faded Sun trilogy, I also read the first of Cherryh's Fortress series. It was fantasy. Recall enjoying it. Kind of thinking about picking some of those up.
Ian Irvine's View from the Mirror quartet. I picked the first up because the cover art wowed me so (I am, or at least can be, pretty fickle). Actually really enjoyed those, though, as I recall. Believe he continued that series quite a bit but never read past those first four.
I'm putting together a small pile of a shopping cart. The more highly recommended stuff from earlier is in, and the floodgate of memory has opened to let this rest through. I'm feeling nostalgic, and finding a lot of it cheap, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger.
And still, not a lot (anything?) in the more explicitly "D&D" mode, but I guess that's okay.
Steven Brust's Jhereg series has a real D&D feel (except for The Phoenix Guards where he goes full-out Dumas in an outstanding tribute).
In a martial take on fantasy, Glen Cook's Black Company books really float my boat. Fighters! Yeah! And a seriously interesting take on wizardry.
I think somebody already mentioned the Amber books. They're a must, though some of the dialog and attitudes didn't age well.
Have you tried the classic Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series? They were recently reprinted after many years off the shelves. VERY D&D with a Conan feel.
Man, wish I could read these again for the first time.
In a martial take on fantasy, Glen Cook's Black Company books really float my boat. Fighters! Yeah! And a seriously interesting take on wizardry.
I'll second Cook's Black Company series as suggestion. Gygax once penned a column about it; loved it; and thought it was a call-back to the early days of D&D (when it was Chainmail).
If you are interested in Cook, a different take might be Sweet Silver Blues, which is basically detective-noir (in the style of Philip Marlowe or Nero Wolfe) mixed in with fantasy and magic. He's written maybe a dozen(?) books in the series, so you may find it too cliché for your taste beyond the initial book or two.
I would also agree that Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series might be worth your time. Although, I would say it shares little with traditional D&D style concepts, if that is your mindset.
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I would also Like to recommend Sutter and his book Death's Heretic, an investigation story that does an excellent job of painting a picture of the world and of exploring the trials the characters have gone through, and I keep wanting to bring up a common theme explored in the book but I'm afraid of spoiling it >_>
Marvin, I would not recommend Sanderson. Lord Snow's praise was pretty faint, and I had the impression that he uses language like a blunt instrument.
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I've actually enjoyed most of the Pathfinder Tales novels. I may not be the best one to recommend things, because I generally going into things I read/watch/etc. for entertainment intending to like them, rather than intending to be critical (in the sense of "critical thinking" rather than "find things to criticize").
That being said, the only Pathfinder Tales novel I would not recommend to anybody is Wizard's Mask by Ed Greenwood. A pity, because I liked the online web fiction lead-in to it. But the novel just left me cold, and kind of annoyed me with its repetetive and going-nowhere plotting, and with the extremely shallow keystone-cops nature it gave to all of the people in both Molthune and Nirmathas who weren't the main characters. Song of the Serpent was one that I thought was only OK. Other than that, I've liked them all.
My favorites are probably more for plot/character/rollicking fun reasons than nature-of-prose reasons. They include:
* Liar's Blade. Still what I think is the best one. Genuinely funny, and not in a "cheap laughs" sort of way. (There are some of those in there too.) The book manages to give you characters clearly designed for comedic purposes, yet that you still care about and that still have depth to them.
* Chris Jackson's "Pirate's" books. (I still haven't read the newest one, though.)
* Dave Gross' "[Royalty] of X" books, starting with Prince of Wolves. (Also, the web fiction and AP fiction interludes to those.) The main characters are both flawed and evolve. Both characters have reasons both to like and dislike them. Many of the novels are clearly an homage to specific styles/genres/motifs (and Dave Gross explicitly indicates that). And, he manages to have one book that has the dog as one of three first-person PoV characters, and it doesn't come out as cheesy or childish.
* Liane Mercel's Nightglass, previously mentioned by others (including the author), is less rollicking adventure than the three above, and as such feels more serious. It's really two novellas packaged together in one novel, with the same main character. Probably the "meatiest" of all the Pathfinder Tales novels.
* James Sutter's Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine combine rollicking adventure with a darker, more disturbed main character (without being quite as dark as "Nightglass").
In related news there was a story of some assassin who fronted as a businessman if I remember correctly. I don't know if it was a tale or novel. Does anyone know the name of it?
Ugh stay away from the David Farland Runelord books. Just...no. reads like a dnd campaign journal. I had to force myself to finish the first novel. Just like the Robert Jordan novels. Could get passed book one.
Mistborn stuff is OK. Bit overrated.
Elizabeth Moon the Deed of Paksinnarion (spelling on that?) Was quite good. Can't attest to any later novels.
Has Tad Williams been mentioned yet? I enjoyed his first trilogy.
In related news there was a story of some assassin who fronted as a businessman if I remember correctly. I don't know if it was a tale or novel. Does anyone know the name of it?
Jhereg has that plot, in some sense.
I am currently listening to Death's Heretic on Audiobook and I am loving it.
Just wanted to shout a big thanks to everybody, again, and also offer apologies one last time to those I've offended. Thread's been a big success for me, though; thanks to your suggestions I've got a glut of fantasy books headed my way. Should keep me buried for a while! We'll see how it goes.
I went with Death's Heretic, on the Tales front. I wasn't so much choosing it over Nightglass as, well, it just kind of worked out that way. So maybe next time on that one
Also grabbed a bunch of (by which I mean waaay too many) things y'all suggested otherwise. Won't bore with the details. But I'm very appreciative and looking forward to checking it all out.
Anybody have thoughts on David Farland's Runelord series? That popped in my head earlier. I remember enjoying it but associating it somehow with Robert Jordan's sort of oeuvre.
Dave Wolverton - Farland is a pen name - is okay. The first RUNELORDS book is decent, the second one is weaker but readable and it just falls off a cliff after that.
Also, Sara Douglass? I know I read her first Axis/Wayfarer book (that cover art, be still my heart) and enjoyed it, but something tells me that might be barking up the wrong tree, at this point in my life.
The late Sara Douglass wrote entertaining fantasy with a different kind of spin to it, but the stories ended up being pretty standard and her prose is nothing special. Fun, for a book or two, but I couldn't read more than that.
Ian Irvine's View from the Mirror quartet. I picked the first up because the cover art wowed me so (I am, or at least can be, pretty fickle). Actually really enjoyed those, though, as I recall. Believe he continued that series quite a bit but never read past those first four.
I also read and enjoyed the first four, but I had some issues with it (it could have been a trilogy easily) and the reviews seem to generally agree that the later series are weaker.
And still, not a lot (anything?) in the more explicitly "D&D" mode, but I guess that's okay.
For "Literary D&D" I would recommend the following two series. Both are controversial and "Marmitey", in that people either love them with the heat of ten thousand burning suns or despise them totally and utterly.
1) The Second Apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker.
This series consists of three interlinked sub-series, with the first two completed. The first three books form The Prince of Nothing trilogy (The Darkness That Comes Before, The Warrior-Prophet, The Thousandfold Thought), and the next four form The Aspect-Emperor series (The Judging Eye, The White-Luck Warrior, The Great Ordeal, The Unholy Consult, the latter two completed and being published next month and then in early 2017).
This series is effectively D&D by way of Tolkien after reading DUNE a few too many times and then setting the whole thing in Greece and Persia during the time of Alexander the Great, except that the war that is going on is actually the First Crusade. All written by Nietzsche.
It's literary in the sense that Bakker is writing to pursue themes about the nature of humanity, questioning how human volition works and studying how easily people can be manipulated, either by their own desires, by religion or by charismatic leaders. But it's still a fantasy series with incredibly powerful magic, horrific, generally-engineered enemy races and barbarian warriors of dubious morality. I recently did a write-up on it here, including a video trailer that was put together about it. The books are not the easiest of reads and at times get so dark that they make GAME OF THRONES read like David Eddings, but definitely sound more like what you're looking for.
2) The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson & Ian Cameron Esslemont
This is less of a series and more of a world created by two Canadian writers, who have together now written nineteen novels set in it. It was originally created as a homebrew D&D world and then spiralled into new and fresh areas later on.
What is interesting about this series is that Erikson (the superior of the two authors) starts off writing more pulpy fantasy and then develops it into a more literary style later on. The first novel in the series - GARDENS OF THE MOON - is extremely atypical of the series as a whole, with a much clunkier prose style compared to the rest of the series (it was written nine years earlier). There is a massive improvement in the second book, DEADHOUSE GATES, however, and helpfully you can start with the second book as it features a different cast, setting and story. Later books expand the literary side of things massively, with much more experimental and shifting prose styles and significant thematic exploration (sometimes at the expense of the actual pulp fantasy story he started with).
For "literary D&D" it's really only those two series and possibly some of the later Terry Pratchett DISCWORLD books that are on the table. BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is DYING EARTH-esque, far-future "rationalised fantasy" more than D&D-influenced. THE BLACK COMPANY by Glen Cook may be of interest (it heavily inspired the MALAZAN novels). Guy Gavriel Kay as well, although his books are less D&D-influenced and more like fantasised retellings of moments from real history.
My own History of Fantasy series explores the entire history of the genre and you may find a few other things of interest in there, but it is a warts and all look that takes in the good, bad and mediocre as well.
Update: Read Death's Heretic this weekend. It was all right. Fast, easy read. Thought Salim was a fun enough character. Liked the focus of the narrative, how it stuck with Salim and the adventure at hand. Mostly. Thought the manner in which his backstory was buried and presented as a reveal was frustrating, but the main idea there made for a great source of internal conflict. Had some complaints, some disappointments, but I'll spare you those.
Thanks to everyone who recommended it. I'll prolly check some more of the Tales novels out when the opportunity arises.
Also read the first half of the Book of the New Sun quartet. Totally loved it. An absolute joy to read so far. Big, big thanks for that recommendation.
all you nerds have all these exciting and well-thought out literary opinions but where are all you and why aren't you part of the Pathfinder Tales Book Club discussions
Update: Read Death's Heretic this weekend. It was all right. Fast, easy read. Thought Salim was a fun enough character. Liked the focus of the narrative, how it stuck with Salim and the adventure at hand. Mostly. Thought the manner in which his backstory was buried and presented as a reveal was frustrating, but the main idea there made for a great source of internal conflict. Had some complaints, some disappointments, but I'll spare you those.
Thanks to everyone who recommended it. I'll prolly check some more of the Tales novels out when the opportunity arises.
Also read the first half of the Book of the New Sun quartet. Totally loved it. An absolute joy to read so far. Big, big thanks for that recommendation.
I had opinions on Death's Heretic as well. the sequel though knocked my socks off. if you could tolerate the first one, I'd urge a glance at the second. I don't think you'd regret it.
to be fair, I get why someone might come in looking askance at Pathfinder Tales. I grew up having a desperate... hate/hate relationship with the Faerun novels, many of which contained terribly misogynistic lines, terrible dialogue, and absurd treatment of people of all genders. in one example of a legit DnD book by a very, very popular author, a dad beats the tar out of his teenage girl because she won't prostitute herself to get her lazy mother a cure disease spell. after beating the tar out of her, she "looks at him and saw that it hurt him (to beat her) as much as it hurt her (to be beaten by her supposed guardian)." I mean... the author straight-exonerates the guy for knocking his daughter about for refusing to prostitute herself... previous DnD novels weren't exactly inured from this kind of stuff. it's way common, even through new stuff released in the last few years.
I came into the Pathfinder Tales extremely skeptical, more than ready to cast them into the flames and never read another again. unfair, definitely, but that's the history of the genre. while the Tales can be hit or miss, imo there is solid, solid effort on the part of the Paizo team to keep extremely talented authors on, with storylines that, at least more often than not, are worth it.