Dandy spellcasting


Rules Questions


The Dandy is a fancy new ranger archetype that gives us a 4/9 full BAB equivalent to a bard (sort of). It has special rules regarding its spellcasting:

Dandy wrote:

Dandy Spells (Su): At 4th level, the dandy gains a

different sort of spellcasting than most rangers. A
dandy uses his Charisma instead of his Wisdom to
determine spells per day, DCs, and other factors related to
spellcasting. He casts spells spontaneously from the bard
spell list (rather than the ranger spell list) with the same
number of spells known and spells per day as a medium
(Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 30) of his ranger level.
This ability alters the ranger’s spellcasting.

However, the dandy does not gain the cantrips class feature, nor does he gain any 0 level spell slots, therefore RAW while he knows a certain number of 0-level spells he must spend 1st level or above spell slots to cast them. Was this intentional, or an oversight?

Scarab Sages

master_marshmallow wrote:
The Dandy is a fancy new ranger archetype that gives us a 4/9 full BAB equivalent to a bard (sort of). It has special rules regarding its spellcasting:
Dandy wrote:

Dandy Spells (Su): At 4th level, the dandy gains a

different sort of spellcasting than most rangers. A
dandy uses his Charisma instead of his Wisdom to
determine spells per day, DCs, and other factors related to
spellcasting. He casts spells spontaneously from the bard
spell list (rather than the ranger spell list) with the same
number of spells known and spells per day as a medium
(Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 30) of his ranger level.
This ability alters the ranger’s spellcasting.
However, the dandy does not gain the cantrips class feature, nor does he gain any 0 level spell slots, therefore RAW while he knows a certain number of 0-level spells he must spend 1st level or above spell slots to cast them. Was this intentional, or an oversight?

He gains the number of spells known and spells per day of a medium...

Medium Spells known/casts per day:

Table: Medium Spells Known
Level Spells Known
0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st 2 — — — —
2nd 3 — — — —
3rd 4 — — — —
4th 4 2 — — —
5th 5 3 — — —
6th 5 4 — — —
7th 6 4 2 — —
8th 6 4 3 — —
9th 6 5 4 — —
10th 6 5 4 2 —
11th 6 5 4 3 —
12th 6 6 5 4 —
13th 6 6 5 4 2
14th 6 6 5 4 3
15th 6 6 6 5 4
16th 6 6 6 5 4
17th 6 6 6 5 4
18th 6 6 6 6 5
19th 6 6 6 6 5
20th 6 6 6 6 5

A medium can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Medium. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The medium's selection of spells is limited. At 1st level, a medium knows two 0-level spells of his choice. At each new level, the medium learns one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Medium Spells Known. Unlike his spells per day, the number of spells a medium knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on the table are fixed. At 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a medium can learn a single new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and he must choose whether to swap the spell at the same time he gains new spells known for the level.

Knacks: Mediums learn a number of knacks, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Medium Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they don't consume slots and can be used again.

Mediums are granted 0 level spells. So is the Dandy. Knacks are granted in the part of the spellcasting rules that govern how many spells you know and cast per day. Which is the part of the medium class that the Dandy gets.

The text handles this. You just have to read it closely. The "use one spell list, but another's spells per day" Ultimate Intrigue gimmick takes getting used to.

The better question is.... are the spells Arcane(spell list from bard class), Pyschic(spell slots from a psychic caster), or Divine(ranger casts divine, and the class feature altering text does not say it changes spell spell type)?


Lorewalker wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
The Dandy is a fancy new ranger archetype that gives us a 4/9 full BAB equivalent to a bard (sort of). It has special rules regarding its spellcasting:
Dandy wrote:

Dandy Spells (Su): At 4th level, the dandy gains a

different sort of spellcasting than most rangers. A
dandy uses his Charisma instead of his Wisdom to
determine spells per day, DCs, and other factors related to
spellcasting. He casts spells spontaneously from the bard
spell list (rather than the ranger spell list) with the same
number of spells known and spells per day as a medium
(Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 30) of his ranger level.
This ability alters the ranger’s spellcasting.
However, the dandy does not gain the cantrips class feature, nor does he gain any 0 level spell slots, therefore RAW while he knows a certain number of 0-level spells he must spend 1st level or above spell slots to cast them. Was this intentional, or an oversight?

He gains the number of spells known and spells per day of a medium...

** spoiler omitted **...

But knacks are specifically psychic spells, and are a separate class feature.

Does the dandy gain divine knacks? How odd....

Scarab Sages

So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.

Scarab Sages

master_marshmallow wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
The Dandy is a fancy new ranger archetype that gives us a 4/9 full BAB equivalent to a bard (sort of). It has special rules regarding its spellcasting:
Dandy wrote:

Dandy Spells (Su): At 4th level, the dandy gains a

different sort of spellcasting than most rangers. A
dandy uses his Charisma instead of his Wisdom to
determine spells per day, DCs, and other factors related to
spellcasting. He casts spells spontaneously from the bard
spell list (rather than the ranger spell list) with the same
number of spells known and spells per day as a medium
(Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 30) of his ranger level.
This ability alters the ranger’s spellcasting.
However, the dandy does not gain the cantrips class feature, nor does he gain any 0 level spell slots, therefore RAW while he knows a certain number of 0-level spells he must spend 1st level or above spell slots to cast them. Was this intentional, or an oversight?

He gains the number of spells known and spells per day of a medium...

** spoiler omitted **...

But knacks are specifically psychic spells, and are a separate class feature.

Does the dandy gain divine knacks? How odd....

They are Knack(psychic) slots, but cantrip spells(arcane) from a divine caster... yes, it is weird.

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Imbicatus wrote:
So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.

I agree about the spells per day, but the Dandy does not mention a change to the caster level among the other changes to spellcasting. It should still be level-3 like a regular Ranger.

Scarab Sages

Imbicatus wrote:
So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.

The ability is altered, not replaced. Thus any old text not specifically changed in the new text is still valid.

This is why the Dandy should still be casting divine spells(though, from the bard list) and this is still valid...
ranger wrote:
'Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.'


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.
I agree about the spells per day, but the Dandy does not mention a change to the caster level among the other changes to spellcasting. It should still be level-3 like a regular Ranger.

Since the spellcasting is altered, you do not use the original text at all for the ranger spellcasting progression, it would appear he has full CL.

Still though, it would warrant clarification on all fronts. A lot of people aren't even sure if he uses Arcane or Divine spells. And he uses Psychic knacks?

Also, I have a hard time knowing who does and doesn't qualify as gentry in the PFRPG setting. Is that clarified somewhere? Is it anyone important? Is it specifically nobility? Is it just not poor people?

This archetype is super cool, but I have no idea how to play it or understand it.

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master_marshmallow wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.
I agree about the spells per day, but the Dandy does not mention a change to the caster level among the other changes to spellcasting. It should still be level-3 like a regular Ranger.
Since the spellcasting is altered, you do not use the original text at all for the ranger spellcasting progression, it would appear he has full CL.

Huh? No, if it had said it replaced the Ranger's spellcasting, then you would not use any of the original text. But instead it alters it, so we use the original text except where it is contradicted by the new rules.

Likewise, it doesn't say that the type of spellcasting is altered, so it remains Divine.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
So a Dandy has no spells until fourth level, when they gain four cantrips and two first level spells known, and can cast one first level spell per day. Also, unlike other rangers, it appears that a dandy using his full ranger level as caster level, not level -3.
I agree about the spells per day, but the Dandy does not mention a change to the caster level among the other changes to spellcasting. It should still be level-3 like a regular Ranger.
Since the spellcasting is altered, you do not use the original text at all for the ranger spellcasting progression, it would appear he has full CL.

Huh? No, if it had said it replaced the Ranger's spellcasting, then you would not use any of the original text. But instead it alters it, so we use the original text except where it is contradicted by the new rules.

Likewise, it doesn't say that the type of spellcasting is altered, so it remains Divine.

Ughhhh

See what I mean?

How do we summon Mark?

Scarab Sages

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"Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance."

Replace 'ranger spell list' with 'bard spell list'

'To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger's spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier.'

Replace 'Wisdom' with 'Charisma'

'Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.'

Replace this whole paragraph and the referenced table with like information from the Medium class.

'A ranger must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.'

Replace 'ranger spell list' with 'bard spell list'.

'Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.'

This does not change.


You are a divine caster. If you changed type, it would be to arcane, not psychic. Since arcane spell failure is not addressed and a 4/9 caster wouldn't reasonably suffer failure for all armor types, that makes it seem like the most reasonable interpretation is the most obvious- because nothing changed the actual type of casting, it's still divine. You don't have knacks, you have orisons, simply because the convention is that divine 0th level spells are called orisons.

Categorizing gentry falls to the GM; typically gentry is broader than nobility.

Scarab Sages

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Put it together.... (Should be correct, but tell me if it isn't)

Dandy Spellcasting:
Beginning at 4th level, a dandy gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. A dandy must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a dandy must have a charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a dandy's spell is 10 + the spell level + the dandy's charisma modifier.

A dandy can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: dandy. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The dandy's selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a dandy knows four 0-level and two 1st-level spells of his choice. At each new level, the dandy learns one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: dandy Spells Known. Unlike his spells per day, the number of spells a dandy knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on the table are fixed. At 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a dandy can learn a single new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and he must choose whether to swap the spell at the same time he gains new spells known for the level.

Orison: dandys learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: dandy Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they don't consume slots and can be used again.

A dandy must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A dandy may prepare and cast any spell on the bard spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Through 3rd level, a dandy has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his dandy level – 3.

Table: Dandy Spells Known
Level Spells Known
----0- 1- 2- 3- 4
-4th 4 2 — — —
-5th 5 3 — — —
-6th 5 4 — — —
-7th 6 4 2 — —
-8th 6 4 3 — —
-9th 6 5 4 — —
10th 6 5 4 2 —
11th 6 5 4 3 —
12th 6 6 5 4 —
13th 6 6 5 4 2
14th 6 6 5 4 3
15th 6 6 6 5 4
16th 6 6 6 5 4
17th 6 6 6 5 4
18th 6 6 6 6 5
19th 6 6 6 6 5
20th 6 6 6 6 5


Lorewalker wrote:

Put it together.... (Should be correct, but tell me if it isn't)

** spoiler omitted **...

Mostly incorrect, as your text has the mechanics for prepared spellcasting and the archetype specifies that he is spontaneous.

Scarab Sages

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master_marshmallow wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Put it together.... (Should be correct, but tell me if it isn't)

** spoiler omitted **...
Mostly incorrect, as your text has the mechanics for prepared spellcasting and the archetype specifies that he is spontaneous.

I forgot the prep paragraphs from ranger. Most of it showed spontaneous casting. Also, needed the spells per day table. Fixed now.

I sort of threw the earlier one together in a couple minutes.
This should be complete. Enjoy!

Dandy spellcasting:
Beginning at 4th level, a dandy gains the ability to spontaneously cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

To cast a spell, a dandy must have a charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a dandy's spell is 10 + the spell level + the dandy's charisma modifier.

A dandy can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Dandy Spells per Day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The dandy's selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a dandy knows four 0-level and two 1st-level spells of his choice. At each new level, the dandy learns one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Dandy Spells Known. Unlike his spells per day, the number of spells a dandy knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on the table are fixed. At 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a dandy can learn a single new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and he must choose whether to swap the spell at the same time he gains new spells known for the level.

Orison: dandys learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Dandy Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they don't consume slots and can be used again.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric a dandy need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.

Through 3rd level, a dandy has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his dandy level – 3.

TABLE: Dandy Spells per Day
——— 1- 2- 3- 4-
-4th 1 — — —
-5th 1 — — —
-6th 1 — — —
-7th 1 1 — —
-8th 1 1 — —
-9th 2 1 — —
10th 2 1 1 —
11th 2 1 1 —
12th 2 2 1 —
13th 3 2 1 1
14th 3 2 1 1
15th 3 2 2 1
16th 3 3 2 1
17th 4 3 2 1
18th 4 3 2 2
19th 4 3 3 2
20th 4 4 3 2

Table: Dandy Spells Known
Level Spells Known
----0- 1- 2- 3- 4
-4th 4 2 — — —
-5th 5 3 — — —
-6th 5 4 — — —
-7th 6 4 2 — —
-8th 6 4 3 — —
-9th 6 5 4 — —
10th 6 5 4 2 —
11th 6 5 4 3 —
12th 6 6 5 4 —
13th 6 6 5 4 2
14th 6 6 5 4 3
15th 6 6 6 5 4
16th 6 6 6 5 4
17th 6 6 6 5 4
18th 6 6 6 6 5
19th 6 6 6 6 5
20th 6 6 6 6 5

Scarab Sages

The revised version looks good to me.

I wonder why the Medium's spell progression was chosen as the model for this archetype. Using the spell list from one class and the spell progression from another class with an archetype from a third class does seem odd.

Scarab Sages

KarlBob wrote:

The revised version looks good to me.

I wonder why the Medium's spell progression was chosen as the model for this archetype. Using the spell list from one class and the spell progression from another class with an archetype from a third class does seem odd.

Honestly? It probably was all about saving space. Why write new tables and spell casting text when you already have it somewhere else and can co-opt it?

They wanted the text of a spontaneous caster(for spells known and spell per day) but that only had 4 spell levels plus 0 level spells. Medium already has all that.

Bard didn't fit, and ranger didn't fit. But, medium is close to ranger, is spontaneous and has 0 level spells.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Mediums are the only 4th level spellcaster with cantrips.

Enlightened Bloodragers from Arcane Anthology do the same thing.

Though this also gives the Dandy one extra spell per day of the highest level she can cast at 4, 7, 10 and 13 and one less 4th level spell per day at 20.

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