This was brought up previously, but perhaps not in the right context. (edit: apparently in more than one thread...I just was reading in another thread which appears MIGHT have had it in there...but I can't tell as most references were erased?...not sure of the context or what happened there...whatever happened, LET's TRY TO KEEP THIS ONE RESPECTFUL).
I am bringing this up, because some of it RINGS TRUE, and ironically, right here on Paizo.
This is supposed to be one of the most LGBT, minority, and woman friendly RPG boards and audiences.
My main game group (I have others, but the main one) is composed of ladies, or at least most of the time. We have an occasional male at times.
The WORST adventure, the most abhorrent game AP we played was from Paizo. It was called Council of Thieves. It is the reason that this game group dropped PF (despite my avowed love for the system) in favor of 5e. They about rebelled on me in that adventure. I see it was with good reason. I convinced them to continue with PF, and we did for a while, but when 5e came out, old wounds were remembered.
They dropped PF like a stone and despite my best efforts, I have NOT been able to get them to really play it again as of current.
I brought up how horrific some of this AP was on these boards. The response was overwhelmingly against the woman, and supportive of Paizo's actions in regards to the AP. Myriad excuses were given. All of it was justifying White Male Privilege.
I have the New Cheliax AP's...to this day I haven't actually mustered up the courage to read them yet. I remember all to clearly the LAST time Paizo did one there, and that's some pretty bad stuff. The fact that they revisited it...means that all my efforts to convince my gaming group to play PF...is for naught. It confirms their views of Paizo...which is odd since Paizo is headed up by a woman...something that I've pointed out. In light of the CoT AP...and their views on how anyone could support that type of stuff and say some of the things in support of it...
Means that unless I game with other groups, there is NO chance for me to ever play PF with them.
I love the PF system. I really don't like the 5e system. However, I enjoy gaming with these people...and so I'll play 5e even though I prefer PF.
The question is, if this is how they view PF...which is supposed to be one of the most welcoming arenas for minorities and LGBT...what about the rest of the Gaming world.
This POST on tumblr (caution, extremism and sometimes language, disturbing images and wording) caught my eye, because while in some ways it seems rather extremists, in some ways it actually has a few things that ring true for those in my gaming group (and that's what makes it both scary, and something that SHOULD be read and not simply erased because it makes people feel uncomfortable).
White Male privilege in tabletop gaming
Has been making waves. It was presented previously on these forums, and quickly shut down(I'm not entirely sure why, much of the conversation surrounding it was erased...so no idea what was in that conversation, once again, let's try to remain respectful). I hope it was simply because it was in the wrong context, because as someone who is NOT a White Male, some of this absolutely rings true, EVEN AMONG PATHFINDER PLAYERS.
Now, the post is written in a very inflammatory manner. I don't believe the stories are about ONE person's experiences at all. It gathers different horrific experiences that have been reported by MULTIPLE people and gathers them into one single post/article. It presents various different incidences (despite the article making it sound like it's all one person I know about the stories some of these incidences actually came from, and they are NOT from one single person, but separate incidences at different locations) that have happened at different times. However, some of it really does strike home in regards to some locations. The following items stuck out to me.
It is 2005 and I am arguing with my future husband about women in gaming.
"Women game as much as men," I say, "they just don’t do it in public and don’t game with self-identified gamers because it’s too dangerous."
"That’s not what my experience in the hobby has been."
"Wait and see."
and
Harassment in nerd hobbies has been quantified and studied and the results are appalling. 25% of the respondents reported harassment, 13% reported unwelcome sexual comments, and 8% reported groping, sexual assault, or rape. If 13% of SDCC attendees receive unwelcome sexual comments, that’s over 17,000 people being sexually harassed every convention. You would have to be an idiot to think none of these people are going to talk to each other, and cavernously evil to dismiss everyone as lying. As for sexual assault? That’s over 10,000 people being groped at SDCC, and it doesn’t count people who are groped more than once. Many of my friends have given up their once-beloved con circuit because they can no longer deal with, as one prominent cosplayer put it, “men handling me like a piece of meat”.
The study quoted does NOT link to a study, but to a Cosplay is not Consent facebook page.
and finally....
++++Men can shout all they like that #notallmen harass women, but as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a “sense of humour” (implying that women who don’t like being groped are somehow at fault), #allmen are complicit in the harassment. Predators rely on other people thinking they’re joking, and when gamers make jokes like “sleeping girls can’t say no”, those predators feel safe and welcomed in the community, while their victims are forced to flee for their safety. Even if the woman does press charges, the police report goes nowhere without the rest of the community willing to testify on her behalf instead of protecting their rapey friend. Predators know this, which is one of the many reasons “Go to the police!” is the constant refrain to shut down ANY discussion of safety in gaming.
Even though it always results in a deluge of threats, I am committed to speaking about my experiences with sexual assault, harassment, and rape in the gaming hobby. The most heartbreaking thing is that every time I do, I receive dozens of messages from men and women who have endured the same and do not feel they can speak up because the community is so hostile to their reality. I’ve heard from several people who, when trying to discuss their sexual assault, have it treated like a joke and laughed at by members of the community. I can’t think of better evidence that the gaming community is far too tolerant of g%~*%+n monsters.
When the majority of gamers refuse to speak up in support of those marginalised, they send the message that the hobby is full of bullies and they like it that way. “There are a%~**&!s in every group” is the rallying cry, yet that statement is nonsense to anyone who has spent the barest amount of time cultivating a healthy community. “A@$@+$% behaviour” only persists because the majority of men are too cowardly to call the a#!@*+&s what they are. The women who speak up against bullying and assault are treated as solely responsible for their safety, while cowards pretend that “staying neutral” is a virtue instead of tacitly condoning the rampant harassment and bigotry. The gaming community has some of the worst excesses of rape culture outside of a Duggar convention.
I say I don't go to gaming CONS...that's a lie to a degree...I don't go to gaming CONS anymore. I have gone before. I really won't go to gaming CONS. That means I have not gone to Paizo Con, I don't know what it is like. I have no desire to go.
What the article makes it seem like, is NOT my experience in the past. In fact, most of the time it seems very normal and I don't see every person as being antagonistic. However, there have been some uncomfortable moments.
Although I've seen some bad things on these boards (as I mentioned at the top) overall, I'd say most people are FAR more sympathetic than I. That I am perhaps one of the worst of the boards in regards to tolerance (I AM working on that) and understanding others. I think the article presents it's point of view a little to far in the extreme in that light.
I DO go to FLGS's, a lot. I'm not as pretty as my spouse...she doesn't really go into game stores anymore. She has been hit upon multiple times there, even when she's made it obvious she is not single and she is not available.
So, I go alone to the game stores most of the time.
But there are some things that make me wonder that perhaps even I have privilege which others I game with do not. Perhaps this is why they are so vehement against some game systems and gaming these days.
I admit, almost ALL of us in my game group...we buy our gaming materials online (either at amazon, or I buy some stuff from Paizo these days). Very little if any of the entirety of our gaming group's money goes to any retail game store.
I am the only one in my main group that even puts a foot into the gamestores, that includes my spouse, our friends that game, and relatives.
So, though I question how valid the posting makes the extremism sound...the fact that how it states woman will buy most of their gaming materials online, that perhaps just as many woman game as men, but not as VISIBLY as men do in stores and cons, and that many may stick to each other (which really does ring true for our group, we don't have that many men involved with it currently, or in the past, I think I may be the only one that identifies as male in the group most of the time)...
Really does ring true.
And as the article points out, if we are silent, in many ways we are acknowledging consent to this type of actions towards woman, and the LAST thing I want to do is consent to this type of treatment towards ANYONE.
As the Article states...
What can men do? They can support and believe women, POC, and anyone else marginalised by the hobby at large. They can refuse to stand for a&*~+!!s in their community. There are good men who know their friends’ stories, but are fearful of sharing them lest their friends receive harassment. You don’t need to share the details. You only need to share that you know it’s a problem. (The aggressive digging into trauma is a bullying tactic meant to further silence and traumatise the victims. Do not fall for it.) I truly believe that if the good men in the community have the courage to stand up for what’s right, they can change the image of a gamer from a slavering neckbearded rapist anonymously e-mailing women death threats to something more positive.
I think the article is over sensationalistic but I want to be clear, I do NOT support woman or minorities being treated like the article describes, and think it is abhorrent if anyone DID act in that manner.
And no, I did NOT post this because the other gamers in my main group visit these boards anymore (as far as I know, they do not), I am posting it to show my support at trying to tailor my own actions to be less discriminatory...and to hopefully point out that there those that feel discriminated against and to help us say we will not tolerate such activities in regards to others either.
I am pretty sure this will get locked down like the last thread that attempted to talk about it... so I will be brief this time.
Most men don't prey upon women, gamer men included. BUT the frustrating thing is when that minority of predators can find acceptance in the hobby and get away with horrible things because here more than other places people don't want to make waves or rock the boat. It's easier to believe the girl is making it up rather than stand up and take notice of the predators actions and maybe DO SOMETHING about it. Sucks to be her, now let me get back to my fantasy game.
I fear the very thing that makes this an accepting place for so many diverse groups is the very same acceptance that gives shelter to the very predators that would prey upon those groups. I wish there was a prefect solution. I was assaulted before and I know how powerless I was in the aftermath (even though I fought him off, very few people believed me). My attack wasn't at a Con, but I can imagine how angry I would be if the very gamers that let me play wouldn't stand up and defend me.
Update: I noted that her stories were from various sources.
Unfortunately, she didn't link to the different sources of her stories.
You can read one of them here. This is a long legal read. The manager owns several business under the single entity, one of which was the game store which the lady worked at.
A simpler run down and shorter article in the news is here
This is just one of the myriad stories taken and utilized in the original post.
I also stated above that their link to their statistics was to a facebook page, which confused me a little bit.
I think I may have found part of the source of some of their numbers, warning, the url address may offend some, don't click if that may be the case.
I am pretty sure this will get locked down like the last thread that attempted to talk about it... so I will be brief this time.
Most men don't prey upon women, gamer men included. BUT the frustrating thing is when that minority of predators can find acceptance in the hobby and get away with horrible things because here more than other places people don't want to make waves or rock the boat. It's easier to believe the girl is making it up rather than stand up and take notice of the predators actions and maybe DO SOMETHING about it. Sucks to be her, now let me get back to my fantasy game.
I fear the very thing that makes this an accepting place for so many diverse groups is the very same acceptance that gives shelter to the very predators that would prey upon those groups. I wish there was a prefect solution. I was assaulted before and I know how powerless I was in the aftermath (even though I fought him off, very few people believed me). My attack wasn't at a Con, but I can imagine how angry I would be if the very gamers that let me play wouldn't stand up and defend me.
I feel terrible that you had to got through that. Words fail me in how to express how sorry I am that you had that experience, and am outraged that anyone would do things like that to others.
No matter who we are or where we are at, we should never condone any behavior that does this to other people. I hope that you got the help that you needed in order to cope with such a terrible experience.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've read this and other accounts of harassment and assault. I've read countless stories of disrespect and outright violence. It enrages. It breaks my heart.
I have no patience for any part of this discussion that refuses to address this problem and dismisses this and other women as untrustworthy or exaggerating.
This violent and disgusting behavior is common as sand. It is not committed by mustache twirling villains, but real people. Your friends, your colleagues. Complex and multifaceted people who bear the capability for kindness and violence.
In any case, I hope this thread proves useful and productive. I really do.
Gender based harassment has probably happened and will continue to happen in every gaming con on the planet. Because gamers aren't any more immune to prejudice than any other group. We may unite in the cause of gaming but beyond that, we're still people underneath, with all that entails.
What will distinguish cons from one another are those who sweep such incidents under the rug, and those who will act promptly to shutdown such harassment when they hear of it.
I can at least say that the Double Exposure cons are of the latter group.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which indicts the whole for the actions of less than the whole. This is worse than accusing a particular individual, since it maintains that everyone is a particular demographic is part of the problem unless they can put forth that they're somehow exempt from this (which usually invites contempt, as Rysky's post shows).
How does that saying go again?
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
-Eldridge Cleaver (thank you Google!)
That's the problem with prejudicial behaviors, silence reinforces them.
|
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
What's the problem with Council of Thieves?
The Six Trials of Larazod are misogynistic and degrading as all f&$@. And unfortunately most people assume the opinions of the play are also the opinions of Paizo, which they are not.
Yes, the play is horrible. It's supposed to be. You're not supposed to like it, you're supposed to hate it. It's a challenge you're supposed to overcome.
That being said I see perfectly fine why people don't like it and are uncomfortable with it to the point of altering or removing it completely from the AP.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What's the problem with Council of Thieves?The Six Trials of Larazod are misogynistic and degrading as all f%&+. And unfortunately most people assume the opinions of the play are also the opinions of Paizo, which they are not.
Yes, the play is horrible. It's supposed to be. You're not supposed to like it, you're supposed to hate it. It's a challenge you're supposed to overcome.
That being said I see perfectly fine why people don't like it and are uncomfortable with it to the point of altering or removing it completely from the AP.
This is where people forget that the setting is freaking Cheliax, the poster child for the "Nation Of Evil" trope.
| 22 people marked this as a favorite. |
Men calling us liars when we talk about abuse and harassment is precisely why the greater tabletop community continues to be unsafe and unwelcoming for women.
This is where people forget that the setting is freaking Cheliax, the poster child for the "Nation Of Evil" trope.What's the problem with Council of Thieves?The Six Trials of Larazod are misogynistic and degrading as all f%&+. And unfortunately most people assume the opinions of the play are also the opinions of Paizo, which they are not.
Yes, the play is horrible. It's supposed to be. You're not supposed to like it, you're supposed to hate it. It's a challenge you're supposed to overcome.
That being said I see perfectly fine why people don't like it and are uncomfortable with it to the point of altering or removing it completely from the AP.
Wonder if any changes will come in the hardcover rework of it?
|
|
Wonder if any changes will come in the hardcover rework of it?This is where people forget that the setting is freaking Cheliax, the poster child for the "Nation Of Evil" trope.What's the problem with Council of Thieves?The Six Trials of Larazod are misogynistic and degrading as all f%&+. And unfortunately most people assume the opinions of the play are also the opinions of Paizo, which they are not.
Yes, the play is horrible. It's supposed to be. You're not supposed to like it, you're supposed to hate it. It's a challenge you're supposed to overcome.
That being said I see perfectly fine why people don't like it and are uncomfortable with it to the point of altering or removing it completely from the AP.
Curse of the Crimson Throne is getting the rework, not Council of Thieves :3
Yeah just realized that CoT and CoCT damn my lack of reading skills.
There is no 'magic shield' or 'special class of person' that walks away from discrimination, assault, harassment, or other issues.
As noted in another thread, I have been the victim of the above situations. I didn't realize how bad it was at the time because hey I was gaming! With People!.
In retrospect in my youth I made some pretty poor life choices.
But without that experience I couldn't have empathy for what was addressed in the current viral floating about.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that women do get this kind of harassment. I've seen many types, and I know that worse stuff happens when there's nobody else around.
I also know that many women don't speak up because they expect worse harassment and little support. I hate to say it but male/white/cis/etc privilege makes it easier to report an observed issue without serious repercussions. I feel that means I need to speak up.
I think the Paizo mods are a pretty good team, and work hard to keep things civil when they see it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is where people forget that the setting is freaking Cheliax, the poster child for the "Nation Of Evil" trope.
I think this is the root of a fair share of the problem.
You, I, and many others look at portrayals of vile behavior and say, 'Yep that is horrible. That's why we are against it.'
However, there is another school of thought out there which looks at the same thing and says, 'That is horrible! How can you be for that?'
The latter viewpoint has developed a new lexicon about 'trigger conditions' and 'microaggressions'. They often inherently assume that anyone bringing up the existence of vile / traumatic things in any context must be promoting such. Those people are engaging in microaggressions which could trigger people who have suffered such trauma in the past - or even those who fear they could. Given such possible harm there is no logical reason that they would bring the subject up except to promote it.
In one sense I can see the appeal of the new thinking... if no one ever brings up 'bad things' then we can all live together in peace and happiness whilst singing kumbaya with the unicorns and tree sprites. However, I think overall that attitude does more harm than good. 'Bad things' exist. The only way to ever reduce their prevalence or potentially eliminate them is to openly discuss and study them. Ostracizing people attempting to do so is thus not only unjustified, but self-defeating... perpetuating the problems that one seeks to avoid acknowledging.
That said... Pathfinder is a game. Not an important scholarly study. It would thus be perfectly reasonable to exclude all potentially upsetting material. On the other hand, some find 'Saturday morning cartoon villains' unrealistic, would prefer enemies that put the 'vile' in villains, and find the nasty accusations lobbed their way over this more than a little bigoted themselves.
Difficult tightrope for Paizo to walk between different fan bases.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alright. I'm about to explode to prevent another thread derailment. I've done this only once before.
The problem isn't moral debate of "Would you turn your friend in if s/he did these acts?" That isn't the question. It's not about turning them in. It's ABOUT FIXING THE GODSDAMNED PROBLEM!
If reporting the harassment fixes the problem, do it. If you don't want to do it because it's your friend, then think of another way to fix the problem. Take the example of feminists talking to a member of the absolutely despicable Return of Kings and getting him to stop his deal, and talk to your friend. If that doesn't work, and he's still being an a*#!~+~, think of something else. Still being an a$+@~@~? At that point I would give up and report, but it's up to you.
It's not about what's the correct protocol, because there is none for the variety of situations this umbrella could encompass. It's about doing whatever will solve the situation.
How do the rest of you feel about the costumes of some of the Iconics? It seems the most scantily clad (Oracle, sorcerer) seem to get a disproportionate amount of art. Some of my sentiment stems from my religious upbringing, but I also feel that the art objectifies women. It makes me sad that products are still sold on this appeal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do the rest of you feel about the costumes of some of the Iconics? It seems the most scantily clad (Oracle, sorcerer) seem to get a disproportionate amount of art. Some of my sentiment stems from my religious upbringing, but I also feel that the art objectifies women. It makes me sad that products are still sold on this appeal.
I actually talked to Mister Jacobs about this. He offered a very reasonable explanation, actually: like in the real world, the women in Golarion prefer to dress in different ways. Seoni's dress, for example, kind of makes sense for her personality, and Alahazra's clothes makes sense for the desert she grew up in. On the flipside, all of the more martial, more no-nonsense iconics, such as Seelah and... whoever the huntress iconic is, wear actual armor that looks like it can take a hit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Percentages mean nothing.
Stopping abhorrent behavior means everything.
Do what you can to make your own table as safe and inviting as possible.
How does that saying go again?
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
-Eldridge Cleaver (thank you Google!)
"If you're not with us, you're against us" goes back much further than that, and has been said in many forms by many people.
"Each man must choose between joining our side or the other side. Any attempt to avoid taking sides in this issue must end in fiasco."
-Vladimir Lenin
I always thought "Kill them all. God knows his own." was one of the more stylish versions of "you're either with me or against me".
Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.
- Hanlon's razor
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually talked to Mister Jacobs about this. He offered a very reasonable explanation, actually: like in the real world, the women in Golarion prefer to dress in different ways. Seoni's dress, for example, kind of makes sense for her personality, and Alahazra's clothes makes sense for the desert she grew up in. On the flipside, all of the more martial, more no-nonsense iconics, such as Seelah and... whoever the huntress iconic is, wear actual armor that looks like it can take a hit.
Jirelle is loaded in armor. So are Amiri, Kyra, Shardra, Merisel, Seelah, Enora, Lirianne, Reiko, Adowyn, Kes, and Lini?
That being said, could quid pro quo apply here, too?
*looks at the male iconics*
Crowe, Sajan, Oloch all show 'skin', so it seems proportionate, at least?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Percentages mean nothing.
Stopping the behavior means everything.
Do what you can to make your own table as safe and inviting as possible.
My table's perfectly safe and inviting.
But it's not a gaming store or a convention. So it doesn't really help anyone other than the handful of people I play with.
maybe not, but what is a gaming convention but dozens upon dozens of tables with everyone playing together?
Do what you can, where you can. A positive example is more powerful than a punitive one.
|
|
Sort of a derail, but I'm pretty sure that's not where "microagressions" comes from or what it's supposed to used for. Not for ever bringing up bad things, but for actually doing bad things that are below the level it seems reasonable to respond to. Except that they're so common the aggregate bothers you anyway.
And yet... 'Paizo is bad because, Council of Thieves' is a prominent portion of the argument being advanced here.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I hate is when gaming gets cast as a font of "so-and-so-privilege-so-and-so-victimization" when it's actually the farthest thing from it, and is just inevitably suffering trickle-in from the wider culture, compared to which the hardcore nerd set (not to be confused with Johnny-come-lately jocks-in-nerds-clothing types who showed up as gaming became more mainstream) has by its very nature always been one of vanguard avenues of forward-thinkers. The fantasy geek mentality is inherently at odds with the bigot mentality.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
