Banned Magic for City


Advice

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Manly-man teapot wrote:
Who's going to enforce it, and what kind of training do they have?

Well, if it were me, and we were talking a single city as an interesting/unusual site-based adventuring location, the enforcer(s) would be the types no one would trifle with.

Back in 3.5, we had this great homebrew city-based campaign setting we called, "Wraith".

Wraith was a city built atop the ruins of cities and civilizations long gone - it existed on a very old Prime Material world, and the location was layers upon layers of cities turned to dungeons. Wraith was - prior to the start of the game - a barely-inhabited city, until a group of adventurers stopped by and started exploring the ruins beneath the city.

They started returning from their excursions with great wealth and riches, and people began to take notice, and something of a gold rush started; adventurous souls started flocking to Wraith, along with merchants to service them.

The corrupt aristocracy that ruled the city tried to put a stop to it until the original adventuring party finally returned from their final excursion, at which point they took over the city, setting up their own government, laws, and adventuring guilds.

From that point on, if you wanted to explore the Deeps, you had to be registered to one of the six Guilds.

And the Guildmasters - the former adventurers - were the ultimate enforcers to keep anything from getting out of line.

In 3.5, they were Epic - undefined, but probably in the level 25 range. In PF, they'd be a full six-person level 20 mythic tier 10 party.

If I think on it, the inspiration for this kind of presence is likely the Planescape Setting's Lady of Pain.

So I'd just steal that general/vague concept - either it could be specific heroes, a powerful being like the Lady of Pain, or some ancient hidden artifact that enforces the laws.

But enforcement is a pretty important question to make sure there's an answer for.


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Antimagic zone the whole city. It's the only way to be sure.


So the hidden church of the Wormlord might have to "support" quite a few officials. If we sell any scrolls of animate dead or create undead, we should ask to see a believable license. Maybe provide a scarf of speak with dead or 2 to the watch investigators.

Scarf of Speak with Dead.
A beautiful black and white silk scarf adorned with my holy symbol pattern.

When this scarf is placed around the neck of the recently dead, and they otherwise qualify for the spell, they can answer questions, as per the spell. It is made by the 10th level high priest so that's 5 questions. The minimum would be 5th level and that would be only 2 questions. The deceased can pick and choose who it takes questions from, as the scarf is providing the magic. Note that as soon as the last question is answered, it becomes a normal corpse again(for at least a week).

3rd level cleric spell, caster 10. Use activated. 60,000 GPV


Great to see all the responses here! It seems there are quite a few ideas about how a legal system would try to cope with magic – each of which creates a very different society and RP opportunities.

I’m currently opposed to any magical artifacts with city-wide effects, as my present interest is trying to figure out how a fairly average city would manage their legal system in a world where magic both exists and is fairly commonplace (at least for low level spells). While this certainly means that many magical crimes may go unpunished (privacy violations via Scrying for example), my goal is less about creating a perfect system and more about figuring out how the city would manage the best it could with the resources it can reasonably obtain.
For some mundane examples – using lead lining on rooms were important decisions are made helps block divination effects, having doorways to certain areas blocked with bead curtains that can move/make noise when someone passes through (visible or otherwise), etc.

Current Ideas I’m thinking to implement as a result of this thread:

  • Higher-level magic use (3rd lvl spells and up?) requires a license from the city. Obtaining said license isn’t difficult, as it’s more of a measure to keep track of all individuals capable of wielding such magic. Licensing requires providing an example of the individual’s magical signature (identified with Greater Detect Magic) before several members of the city’s magical control board so that spells cast by that individual can be more easily identified/linked to that individual.
  • Scrolls/Wands of Greater Detect Magic being commonplace among magically capable Law Officials
  • Arcane Mark used to mark and attempt to track certain magic items.
  • Multiple tiers of regulated magic with different limitations/penalties.
    Tier I: Banned Magic | Casting the spell, owning/producing/selling potions, spell-completion, spell-trigger, magic items, etc. is illegal. Spellbooks found with the spell will be confiscated & their owner interrogated. Reserved for only for the most heinous spells without acceptable use.
    Tier II: Restricted Magic | Owning items related to the spell is legal, but considered highly-suspicious. Casting/using the spell within city limits is considered criminal regardless of situation.
    Tier III: Controlled Magic | Casting/using the spell within city limits is considered criminal unless authorized to do so by prior agreement (officially filed request and/or done with maintaining the city’s law). Exemptions exist for acts of self-defense after a review by proper court authorities.
    Tier IV: Unregulated Magic | Legal to own/use as long as no one is harmed/negatively influenced by the spell. Includes everything not specified in the other tiers.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
In Golarion, your perfect enforcers would be specially trained maguses. (magi?) backed by an inquisitor.

This isn’t for Golarion (Homebrew World+Deities) but mind if I ask why the Magus in particular?

I’m currently designing some of the enforcement options [ranging from lower-level basic guards to higher options ‘loaned’ by some of the churches/organizations in the city in exchange for more political power (naturally the question of jurisdiction is highly contested)]. Among them are Paladins, Inquisitors (Spellbreaker, Witch Hunter, & Cold Iron Warden), and even a few Warpriests (Disenchanter & Proselytizer) which all seem to have wonderful ways to deal with criminals (especially when equipped with mancathers/nets for nonlethal capture).

Aelryinth wrote:

Having a living enforcement arm just means using the magic is permissible as long as you don't leave witnesses. That means evil guys have all the edge, and heroes sucketh.

===Aelryinth

To be fair, this is true for most crimes ;)


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
In Golarion, your perfect enforcers would be specially trained maguses. (magi?) backed by an inquisitor.

Magi is correct.

Charon Onozuka wrote:
... mind if I ask why the Magus in particular?

I'm assuming it's coz they're basically magic-martials. They also get a couple of arcana that help them fight casters (Disruptive etc).

Honestly I'd say most 4/9 and 6/9 casters would work pretty well as the magic police, even clerics work.

I had an idea for a campaign where arcane magic is completely outlawed and they tend to be hunted down by divine spell-casters (and all the PC's would be different arcane classes). Loving this thread, lots of great stuff.


Vengeful undead have the real advantage. Nothing to lose and you can't really kill them.

Scarab Sages

Charon Onozuka wrote:

I’m currently opposed to any magical artifacts with city-wide effects, as my present interest is trying to figure out how a fairly average city would manage their legal system in a world where magic both exists and is fairly commonplace (at least for low level spells). While this certainly means that many magical crimes may go unpunished (privacy violations via Scrying for example), my goal is less about creating a perfect system and more about figuring out how the city would manage the best it could with the resources it can reasonably obtain.

For some mundane examples – using lead lining on rooms were important decisions are made helps block divination effects, having doorways to certain areas blocked with bead curtains that can move/make noise when someone passes through (visible or otherwise), etc.

Something not addressed yet, is why the town seeks to limit/restrict magic specifically...? Most spell effects can be accomplished without magic, even if they require more time/manpower.

Granted, they could just like making lots of laws, but understand that cost to enforce does limit the practicality of some laws. If the town actively discourages magic use, then magic users will likely be less common. This may affect trade, tourism, and other economical features of the town.

And, any system that uses laws must also feature a consequence for breaking such laws. This may affect the morality of such a city, and more so, how other cities view your city.

Now, if magic use is limited to law enforcement (or another group), the ability to generate corruption within the government goes up dramatically. Doesn't really matter what setting, give all the power to one group and that group ends up with some sinister people (because sinister people tend to be more ruthlessly ambitious).

For your list of mundane things, some considerations:

First, racial SR (like some dwarves have) in the majority's population would be an easy way to effectively nerf magic without actually doing anything. You could easily have lightweight anti-magic laws in a city where most magic would just fail on the average citizen.

Second, you mentioned lead. This one is a double edged sword. Lead is both common and cheap in the medieval world. Lead piping is extremely common for medieval sewers and such. If you rely on detection spells for your legal forces, I imagine a magical criminal underworld would form in your sewers. In general, if your forces rely too much on any one method of detection, you will inherently generate a group that exists within the weak points of that system. You could try to limit lead, but then you have yet another thing to police.

Third, I will caution you regarding low level spells. I honestly think many of those zero or 1st level spells are more problematic to a city than the threat the higher level spells pose. Even just "Create Water" has rather large implications from the stance of a city. It's not that the higher spells are less potent, but them being less common reduces the threat they pose.


Excellent questions!

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Something not addressed yet, is why the town seeks to limit/restrict magic specifically...? Most spell effects can be accomplished without magic, even if they require more time/manpower.

The town seeks to restrict/limit magic as part of a broader set of laws meant to safeguard its citizens, ensure fair and honest trade, and ensure integrity of the legal system. This thread is primarily focused on the legality of magic simply because it is the most difficult element for me (as a creator) to imagine without clear parallels to our world (such as laws regarding carried weapons).

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Granted, they could just like making lots of laws, but understand that cost to enforce does limit the practicality of some laws. If the town actively discourages magic use, then magic users will likely be less common. This may affect trade, tourism, and other economical features of the town.

This is part of the reason I don’t want magic to be limited to a certain class within the city, and also why I am cautious about the city forcing everyone to obtain permits to do so (especially when many travel through the city for only a few days before going further down the river – and trying to keep track of every magically-inclined individual would be a nightmare of paperwork that only serves to give potential customers negative impressions of the city as a whole).

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

For your list of mundane things, some considerations:

First, racial SR (like some dwarves have) in the majority's population would be an easy way to effectively nerf magic without actually doing anything. You could easily have lightweight anti-magic laws in a city where most magic would just fail on the average citizen.

Again, the intent here is less to “nerf magic” and more on how to think through how a (fairly average) city would dealing with the existence of magic within its legal system. So I don’t want the city to be relying on any artifacts, adding SR (primarily humans), or any other “artificial” means of controlling magic.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Second, you mentioned lead. This one is a double edged sword. Lead is both common and cheap in the medieval world. Lead piping is extremely common for medieval sewers and such. If you rely on detection spells for your legal forces, I imagine a magical criminal underworld would form in your sewers. In general, if your forces rely too much on any one method of detection, you will inherently generate a group that exists within the weak points of that system. You could try to limit lead, but then you have yet another thing to police.

Very true. In fact, part of the what lead me to start thinking more deeply about how a city would handle magic legally was trying to think through a Black Market that the PCs will be visiting in the campaign (whenever they decide to actually go to the city that is, they’ve been pushing it off in favor of other tasks the last few sessions). However, in order to fully construct the criminal elements of the city, I need to know what the city deems illegal + how they enforce it so that I know what the Black Market is selling & how they’re getting around the system.

In other words, both the city’s law and illegal elements will be using things such as lead to ward off unwanted detection spells for their purposes. Heck, I’m sure that wealthy private merchants would ensure they had a lead-lined room for sensitive business transactions just to be sure that a competitor isn’t magically eavesdropping. While the law may be concerned about the misuse of such, like you mentioned, something like lead is far too common for them to police effectively.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Third, I will caution you regarding low level spells. I honestly think many of those zero or 1st level spells are more problematic to a city than the threat the higher level spells pose. Even just "Create Water" has rather large implications from the stance of a city. It's not that the higher spells are less potent, but them being less common reduces the threat they pose.

That is very true, and something that I’ll admit I haven’t given proper consideration thus far. Are there any spells in particular that would likely be problematic for a city?

-

MrCharisma wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
... mind if I ask why the Magus in particular?

I'm assuming it's coz they're basically magic-martials. They also get a couple of arcana that help them fight casters (Disruptive etc).

Honestly I'd say most 4/9 and 6/9 casters would work pretty well as the magic police, even clerics work.

Alright, I’m sold on using the Magus as a good class for law enforcement (especially when most of the other good options are divine classes). Though since I’m not as familiar with building magi – what spells/feats/etc. would be good for one to pick up to serve a law enforcement role? I’m currently thinking about making them at either 6th lvl (Disruptive Feat, probably need Step Up as well to make it work) or 7th lvl (So they can cast Dispel Magic & have medium armor) with good ranks in Spellcraft+UMD and at least one nonlethal weapon to help capture people alive. Anything else I should keep in mind?

Scarab Sages

Charon Onozuka wrote:

Excellent questions!

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Something not addressed yet, is why the town seeks to limit/restrict magic specifically...? Most spell effects can be accomplished without magic, even if they require more time/manpower.
The town seeks to restrict/limit magic as part of a broader set of laws meant to safeguard its citizens, ensure fair and honest trade, and ensure integrity of the legal system. This thread is primarily focused on the legality of magic simply because it is the most difficult element for me (as a creator) to imagine without clear parallels to our world (such as laws regarding carried weapons).

Have you looked at the "Fairness" spell? That one is Abadar Specific, but really speaks towards what you are trying to do. It's a 1st level spell that would be easily implemented in the form of a Wand or a Potion.

In general, Abadar (or a setting specific knock off) would be a very logical choice if the intention of anti-magic is trade focused. Also Abadar in theme, the Inevitable Improved Familiar option, would be useful to assist local law enforcement. Although not described in that link, the creature has "Truespeech"

Quote:
Truespeech (Su) An inevitable can speak with any creature that has a language, as if using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

A very useful ability for tourism and law enforcement.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Easier to just institute a city wide SPell Engine and make casting impossible without specific items that attune you to the engine...that all vanish with the dawn and have to be re-acquired.

A scenario that plays up the power of common people, martials and rogues. Spellcasters who are loyal to the city have to report to get their rings every day, assuring a measure of control over them.

Temples could probably erect wards to allow them to cast on holy grounds, but they'd still need permission to be allowed a ring.

Secular paranoia is a wonderful thing, is it not?

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

Aelryinth wrote:
Easier to just institute a city wide SPell Engine and make casting impossible without specific items that attune you to the engine...that all vanish with the dawn and have to be re-acquired.

But if the goal is fair trade, it doesn't really solve the problem.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Fair trade? You'll have to define that. Without one side having magic, the other side not, and spellcasting only in the hands of the law, how would that impede 'fair trade'?

==Aelryinth


Thoes magic rings sound like beach badges. If you don't have a really great beach, everyone will avoid your city.


Charon Onozuka wrote:
Alright, I’m sold on using the Magus as a good class for law enforcement (especially when most of the other good options are divine classes). Though since I’m not as familiar with building magi – what spells/feats/etc. would be good for one to pick up to serve a law enforcement role? I’m currently thinking about making them at either 6th lvl (Disruptive Feat, probably need Step Up as well to make it work) or 7th lvl (So they can cast Dispel Magic & have medium armor) with good ranks in Spellcraft+UMD and at least one nonlethal weapon to help capture people alive. Anything else I should keep in mind?

So for a (mostly) full list of Magus Arcana, you can look HERE or HERE. I prefer the PFSRD (first link), but they both come with pros and cons.

And here's a good list of potential Arcana you might like:
Arcane Scent (No prerequisite)
Dispelling Strike (Magus 9)
Disruptive (Magus 6)
Intuitive Protection (Magus 3 ... which I think is the same as no prerequisite?)
Lingering Pain (No prerequisite)
Planar Hunter (Magus 9)
Reflection (Magus 15)
Spellbreaker (Magus 9)

I'd also like to mention Bane Blade (15), Devoted Blade (12) and Ghost Blade (9) for a city that's specifically worried about certain summons/etc. Or these 3 could be specific to high ranking Specialists within a city.

To my mind probably the most used of these in a "magic police force" is going to be Arcane Scent.

Edit: I forgot to talk about prerequisite levels for these arcana, so I added them (in brackets). Some of them have pretty high prerequisites.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Goth Guru wrote:
Thoes magic rings sound like beach badges. If you don't have a really great beach, everyone will avoid your city.

Casters not devoted to the city will avoid it, you mean.

Has little to no effect on people who aren't casters, i.e. the majority of the people, nor on clergy on their own holy ground.

From a security standpoint, it's probably much safer then your average magical town.

==Aelryinth


Your city needs lots of monsters that are only vulnerable to magic.
Me and my buddy Asmodius will send you lots of that if they meddle with our affairs. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

As long as they can't USE magic (and they can't), won't be a problem. Plenty of magic weapons around to take care of them...and city loyal clerics to help out.

==Aelryinth


You know, ultimate intrigue has a spell that the constabulary might find interesting... Crime Wave :p


Hazrond wrote:
You know, ultimate intrigue has a spell that the constabulary might find interesting... Crime Wave :p

Still waiting for my tax rebate to direct deposit. UI is top of my PDF must buy list.


Anti magic field in the whole city seems really hard to justify (firstly for the cost if you follow the rules, and secondly because some people should be allowed to use magic).

Make the city entirely covered by small object with detect magic (improved version with longer range). For exemple make it small gem on all the street lamp.

If one of the object detect a spell, it trigger an alarm. The city should have special force trained against magical user (at least one wizard with dispel magic, or magus which seem a better option) with weapon against magical user (I remenber a bolas with small antimagic field around them).

At the important passage point (gates of the city, rich quarter, ect) put wizard with arcane sight that scan everyone and take appropriate mesure with the spellcaster. (eg. escort them or force them to wear antimagic ring).

Of course, some people should be allowed to use magic (priest, crafter, some wizard who work for the gouvernement).
This person should register and get a certificate that state what kind of spell they can use and where (maybe a special tatoo). And the alarm isn't triggered by this people.


Sorry for the double post, but I missed the one hour limit for editing :

If you want to make commercial activity in that city, you can put a specific market place outside the main wall of the city where magic item are allowed. The crafters have specific way to bring their item to sell, heavily monitored or escorted.
You can't go back to the city with your magic item but the are safe storage near the gate of the city.

Sovereign Court

I wouldn't so much have a list of what spells are or aren't allowed but instead have what functions of magic are or aren't allowed (no damaging property/harming people, no spying, etc). As for who to enforce this Inquisitors of whatever God of magic your world has would work well.


So maybe i am unique in this opinion, but what if the constables CANT have such a stranglehold on magic in the city? Like, the things people are describing are INCREDIBLY expensive and kind of overkill to a huge extent. Magic is usually not enough of a problem as a whole to justify such widespread measures, ESPECIALLY because they both conflict with both the main trade of the city (the construction and trade of magical items) and because none of these measures are really needed.

Magic leaves traces, auras, so if someone commits a crime all you have to do is head to the crime scene and use Greater Detect Magic, it would be as simple as having wizards who enter the city be required to perform a spell for a little badge or something, nothing magical, they just have to show the Detective Wizard they can cast to get their casting license. Then he can identify any spell's caster by examining the auras left over and it only requires a single spell.

As opposed to hundreds of expensive magical items that would restrict the city's main trade import and export and would also earn the enmity of the same wizards they are trying to police. Instead you can police them secretly and easily. And the main crux of the issue here is that people here are trying to PREVENT crime, but that is expensive, impractical, and alienates the people you are trying to protect. The trick is to be able to PUNISH crime when it DOES happen, as opposed to futilely trying to stop all crime before it can start.


I once bailed on an adventure before it started.
I had a character who was a cleric and the module would take them into an evil nation. They started talking about disguise checks and I said my character does not have that skill at all and you could not apply enough modifiers to let him pull it off. I offered any of my other characters, and they said no. I said good, then I will never be able to play this module because I know too much about it.

One way of preventing this is to have the adventure hook be a powerful person in the law enforcement of your city, and give them special ID before they set foot in the city. Don't just ask them to hide their hand of the mage. Give them a permit to use it. A city devoted to Asmodius doesn't want Has*** to be summoned into their theater district.

If there was another way for me or them to handle this, I would be glad to hear it.


Hazrond wrote:

So maybe i am unique in this opinion, but what if the constables CANT have such a stranglehold on magic in the city? Like, the things people are describing are INCREDIBLY expensive and kind of overkill to a huge extent. Magic is usually not enough of a problem as a whole to justify such widespread measures, ESPECIALLY because they both conflict with both the main trade of the city (the construction and trade of magical items) and because none of these measures are really needed.

Magic leaves traces, auras, so if someone commits a crime all you have to do is head to the crime scene and use Greater Detect Magic, it would be as simple as having wizards who enter the city be required to perform a spell for a little badge or something, nothing magical, they just have to show the Detective Wizard they can cast to get their casting license. Then he can identify any spell's caster by examining the auras left over and it only requires a single spell.

As opposed to hundreds of expensive magical items that would restrict the city's main trade import and export and would also earn the enmity of the same wizards they are trying to police. Instead you can police them secretly and easily. And the main crux of the issue here is that people here are trying to PREVENT crime, but that is expensive, impractical, and alienates the people you are trying to protect. The trick is to be able to PUNISH crime when it DOES happen, as opposed to futilely trying to stop all crime before it can start.

Don’t worry, you’re not alone in that opinion. I never wanted to make this into a tyrannical city with a stranglehold on all magic within its borders. Rather, this is a rapidly growing city (result of trade) which is starting to notice various problems as its population grows (such as magical crime). As such, it’s trying to make a legal system which can cope with these problems, attempt to reduce further problems without being too inconvenient to law-abiding citizens, and catch criminals who use magic as a way to aid/mask their crimes.

The more I look at Greater Detect Magic, the more I’m liking it for use by law enforcement in a city (though that does require a decent number of officials to be capable of 3rd lvl spellcasting & organized crime will start using Greater Magic Aura as a result). Though I have to ask, if a spell is cast using an item, would it have the spell’s “signature flourishes” based on the item, or on the person using it? Because right now I’m thinking that guards located at the entrances to the city would be given a Ring of Arcane Signets and have entering individuals use it to make a mark on a sort of entry permit to the city. If the “signature flourishes” of the Arcane Mark cast were linked to the person – then this seems like it’d be an easy way to have a record of a person’s magic for using with Greater Detect Magic – especially since the mark could be stored on a piece of paper & then re-examined at any time, even by people not present at the original time of casting (& allowing lower-level individuals to handle the process and not have to memorize everyone entering the city).

While punishing crime that does happen is certainly important, I find it hard to imagine any sort of civilized society which doesn't put at least some effort into crime prevention - even if it's arguably more difficult to do.

-

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:

Excellent questions!

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Something not addressed yet, is why the town seeks to limit/restrict magic specifically...? Most spell effects can be accomplished without magic, even if they require more time/manpower.
The town seeks to restrict/limit magic as part of a broader set of laws meant to safeguard its citizens, ensure fair and honest trade, and ensure integrity of the legal system. This thread is primarily focused on the legality of magic simply because it is the most difficult element for me (as a creator) to imagine without clear parallels to our world (such as laws regarding carried weapons).
Have you looked at the "Fairness" spell? That one is Abadar Specific, but really speaks towards what you are trying to do. It's a 1st level spell that would be easily implemented in the form of a Wand or a Potion.

Thanks for the spell! I’m certainly interested in implementing some clerics who assist merchants with certain transactions (Merchant God is one of two patron deities for the city). Though as far as I know, there isn’t any way to know if someone passed/failed the Will save associated with the spell – so there would still need to be a certain amount of caution even when using magic to try to enforce fairness.

-

Goth Guru wrote:
Hazrond wrote:
You know, ultimate intrigue has a spell that the constabulary might find interesting... Crime Wave :p
Still waiting for my tax rebate to direct deposit. UI is top of my PDF must buy list.

Unfortunately, even though I have Ultimate Intrigue – I’ve barely had the time to start going through it (life is kinda kicking my ass right now). Does anyone else know anything in particular that a town would be interested to watch out for from that book?

-

blangel wrote:
The city should have special force trained against magical user (at least one wizard with dispel magic, or magus which seem a better option) with weapon against magical user (I remenber a bolas with small antimagic field around them).

That bolas sounds rather interesting. Do you know what it's called or where I could find it? My Google-fu is weak and didn't turn up anything.


Some work on an average pathfinder village


From a module in 3rd (I think), there was a town that required all spell casters to "Peace Tie" their ring and middle finger together. They basically required a full round action to get off (less if disable device was used) and until then gave a something like a 25-50% spell failure chance on spells with a somatic component.

This allowed spell casters to defend themselves if necessary but made spells still more difficult to cast.

Yes, this is beat by still spell and probably quite a few new spell casting variants, but it seems a good non-magical way for a town or city to attempt to regulate casters.


Maybe you could pull a Wheel of Time thing here.

Spell casting without approval of the government is illegal.
All government spell casters are "leashed" and don't qualify as people. They may qualify as animals, but many are valued only as objects.

They use the minor artifacts to control magic users.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Some work on an average pathfinder village

I didn't dig too far since it was a five+ page thread, but I didn't see it on the first page while skimming.

Does that thread address the need for there to be so many 5+ level PC class casters for there to be 3rd level casting available in a village with a population of 61-200?

Claxon wrote:

Maybe you could pull a Wheel of Time thing here.

Spell casting without approval of the government is illegal.
All government spell casters are "leashed" and don't qualify as people. They may qualify as animals, but many are valued only as objects.

They use the minor artifacts to control magic users.

Wouldn't necessarily have to use something like an a'dam from WoT. In the base realm of the WoT world, the Aes Sedai were a strong and feared group of magical practitioners. They were so jealous of their own power that they, for the most part, forced any able practitioner to become part of their organization.

I mention the Recluce series, and there's a realm there that does the same thing, but with even more draconian methods. There, the realm of Hamor requires all users of magic (Order and Chaos, in that world) to register with the government. If the practitioner's level of ability was above a certain point, they would be required to join the government run organization. Attempts to avoid these regulations were met with summary execution by the operatives of that same order. Consequently, the state controlled virtually every relevant practitioner of magic.


Manly-man teapot wrote:
Manly-man teapot wrote:

I really, truly loathe laws backed with nonsensical fervor by giant penis-extension NPCs.

The Dragonlance campaign setting was fairly neat; you could be super low level and not have to bother, but once you want to play in the leagues, you have to join the organization; and the same organization that empowers you also polices you, magic issues are decided by magic people, and so on. If a medium-level mage wreaks havoc in a kingdom, doing things that the king obviously can't let him get away with, he can A) kill him and deal with the political fallout with his Order, B) ask the order to handle & punish him. And both options are politically valid.

Also, importantly, the consequence of PC mages fireballing cattle or selling summoned horses is not an immediate visit by the giant penis at the head of the order, but a stern warning from other marges who have to live there.

Marge squirrel was not super effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxeHhJW6zk


Already too late to edit.
Manly-man teapot obviously meant mage, but something went wrong.

Addressing earlier posts, there are already prisoner and jailer dungeon rings. Maybe it was modified to alert the Jailer when the prisoner casts spells. They could replace status with detect magic. This would only be for repeat offenders or suchlike.


Saldiven wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Some work on an average pathfinder village

I didn't dig too far since it was a five+ page thread, but I didn't see it on the first page while skimming.

Does that thread address the need for there to be so many 5+ level PC class casters for there to be 3rd level casting available in a village with a population of 61-200?

Mostly it points out the resource scale for a population base of thhat size which is not insubstantial, and the fact that a large number of moderate level characters is not inappropriate for the setting.

If the settlement the OP is talking about having is a town his resouce base is such that some of the suggestions using magic items or the like isn't really outrageous.

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Removed some posts and their responses. Keep it clean, please.


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Can't believe I didn't know about THIS.
As a +1 enhancement cost (or +2 for the greater version) it's fairly expensive, but for a decent sized city they could have a couple of these on hand


Honestly I think that if you are very clear that this city is seriously LAWFUL and they prosecute uses of magic just like you committed a crime. Charm Person is either theft or coercion. Divination could be spying or trespassing. Any combat spell could be assault with a deadly weapon or murder. I think that you might be overthinking this issue. The basic laws work just fine. All you need to do is have the city be PREPARED and ABLE to detect, enforce and prosecute offenders. There have been plenty of solutions offered for this in the thread so I will not belabor the issue. But, make sure you impress this on your PCs so there is not confusion or hard feelings if they break the laws. Maybe even have a scene when you enter the city of a wizard being arrested and some pretty impressive martial and mystical means being used to lock down his magic.


Also note that reasonably high-level clerics have access to the various planar ally spells, and "protecting a city of my worshippers" is likely to be really well-aligned with any god's ethos. Plus, high-level clerics can plane shift and are probably on good terms with their god(s), or they wouldn't be high-level clerics, so they could just go to court, negotiate or ask for aid, and plane shift back with some really useful outsiders.

So if some new folks in town act up, the Supremely Wrathful Angelic Trumpeter team gets loosed upon them...


Post signs on roads leading into the city and near likely campgrounds just what spells should not be cast in the city. In other words, don't memorize flame strike, fireball, lightning bolt, or meteor swarm. Charm requires a permit, but hold person or entangle does not.

All cities should be doing this already.

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