grimdog73 |
i was looking at this earlier and thought about possible archetypes or specialties you could use with this class. Like siege specialists, buff specialists, defensive specialists, etc. Their abilities would be centered around their specialty. Ie, siege specialist would have spells/abilities geared around dealing with fortifications, have knowledge of siege weapons and such. A defensive spec would have protection abilities, like prot. evil, anti arrow defences....just spitballing here...
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
What I'm saying, though, is that the economics of pathfinder are really out of whack, anyways. A castle costs 500,000 or 1,000,000 gp to build, according to 3.5; in PF, I think it's still in the hundreds of thousands, which seems like it puts it outside the affordability of most kingdoms.
According to the rules, any commoner with a 12 int could be an adept, use scribe scroll, and use his 3 spells per day to scribe 3 scrolls, and get about 35 gp in profit every single day, which is, as you were saying, is over a months' wage. That's 7,000 gp a year only working 200 days (and 6 hours a day at that). You would expect any city to have a number of pretty mundane businessmen like this who in a couple of years have saved up more money than a 5th or 6th level character. A city like Absalom would certainly provide plenty of demand for their products. The local magic shop owner should be richer than most nobility.
So what I'm saying is, don't worry about the economics or ruining the suspension of disbelief; it's easy to say they invented a magical printing press for scrolls or something, but the product is out of the reach of adventurers because they don't want the technology falling in to the wrong hands. Which is, I guess, something that should be addressed: is this a class designed for an NPC army, or is this a class you are expecting PCs to take?
The other thing is, it seems like scrolls will provide a big advantage in versatility; you can have a number of scrolls ready for any eventuality, where most casters only get a couple of spells a day that must be prepared ahead of time.
According to the character advancement chart, normal npcs start with 260 gp, and heroic start with 390. You could easily outfit each level 1 npc with chainmail, 4 scrolls, a weapon, and a shield. (likely these warriors will be heroic and higher level, anyways, as you were describing a highly trained army instead of conscripts).The combat spell effects seem like a neat way to give them the feel you are looking for.
Your commoner example is bad.
he can 'make' a scroll every day. That doesn't mean he's going to sell it. Paizo specifically has said that Profession checks are how you make money selling things over time for stores and the like. So, he makes a scroll, rolls his Profession check, and makes 35 gp for the month...he sold one scroll, and might have enough money to add to his inventory.
I.e. just because he can make high value goods doesn't mean he can SELL them all, just as fast. If you let them sell as fast as they can be made, yeah, that's really breaking the numbers and spirit of the system.
==Aelryinth
Atarlost |
Your commoner example is bad.
he can 'make' a scroll every day. That doesn't mean he's going to sell it. Paizo specifically has said that Profession checks are how you make money selling things over time for stores and the like. So, he makes a scroll, rolls his Profession check, and makes 35 gp for the month...he sold one scroll, and might have enough money to add to his inventory.
I.e. just because he can make high value goods doesn't mean he can SELL them all, just as fast. If you let them sell as fast as they can be made, yeah, that's really breaking the numbers and spirit of the system.
==Aelryinth
But that doesn't make sense either. If magic items were so much easier to produce than sell they wouldn't have such a high markup.
The use of profession to sell crafting products and services is a hack to prevent adventurers from making significant money from non-adventuring sources. Either spell casting services should be dirt cheap and magic item prices slashed until they have almost no profit margin or even low level casters should be prodigiously wealthy or both the item price list and the profession rules are bunk and the actual prices are somewhere in between.
Or there's a 95% income tax but only on the people over whom the government has the least real power. That's how you get tax free thaumatocracies.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
IT makes more sense then spellcasters being worth 500 gp a day in crafting services, and a 14th level smith with +35 to his check being worth 4 gp.
Remember, average wage, 1 sp/day. 35 gp is a year's income to some people, and that's a cheap scroll. Even if you knock it up to 1 gp/day, that's a month's income.
Magic items are not cheap. The market for them is thus pretty limited.
It's actually pretty standard that you sell something for twice the price you purchase it for. The market price just means you made some crafter's month/year/decade. Seriously, exactly how many people in a kingdom could actually afford a 50k +5 sword? Could even afford the $25k expenditure to make it in the first place? It's the equivalent of a multi-million dollar purchase. Very few people are going to or even be capable of tying up 25k in gold for a magic sword that might take a couple YEARS to find someone who can afford it.
So, it's canon that you decide a normal person's income based on Profession or Craft checks, NOT on how much magic items they can make a day. They gave very direct examples of maybe a low level scroll or potion being purchased once a month for a typical magic item store. Most people aren't like PC's, with that much gold to throw around.
==Aelryinth
TheAlicornSage |
"I.e. just because he can make high value goods doesn't mean he can SELL them all, just as fast. If you let them sell as fast as they can be made, yeah, that's really breaking the numbers and spirit of the system."
Two things about this, first, using a scroll requires a fair bit of training because it is a spell-completion item, meaning that using it requires training.
However, the basic concept of being able to make several items in a day can apply to use activated items like potions, which would drive the availability up, in turn driving the cost down.
However, this is one aspect of the game that is designed with PC resource expenditures balancing in mind, rather than simulationism of the narrative world, thus resulting in a bit of a mismatch. Howevet, it does still cost a certain amount to make such items, and training soldiers to cast spells is still cheaper in the long run, thus suitable for a standing army, but not so much for a conscript army.
TheAlicornSage |
"You could easily outfit each level 1 npc with chainmail, 4 scrolls, a weapon, and a shield."
I would like to note that this is forgetting that a soldier might have many battles, each hours long, every week. Those four scrolls don't refresh each day, and certainly won't be paid for each day either.
Also, there is no reason to say that learned spellcasting must be prepared like a wizard. After all, the arcanist preps spells known which can be cast in any combination each day, including repeat casts.
Lady Funnyhat |
Everyone's just commenting on how the economy in Pathfinder doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to balanced for gameplay (ideally). The actual economic state of a setting, as well as percentage of PC classes, level distribution, commonality of spellcasters, etc, are pretty much up to the DM. Trying to figure out a realistic economy based on magic item pricing is and always will be futile. It's one of those aspects of the game that should not translate to world lore by necessity.
That being said, I think I found something very similar to what OP is looking for: the Battle Scion from Kobold Press.
It's got full BAB, good fort and will saves, full martial weapons and armor proficiency, bonus feats, and 4 levels of int-based spellcasting. It's basically a wizard/fighter hybrid that's much more fighter than wizard.
I haven't played it yet, but from experience Kobold Press's stuff is decently balanced. The only thing I would change, if needed, is to give it the Bloodrager spell list rather than Sorcerer/Wizard. Overall this seem like a good fit for a magically-trained commander or elite soldier. Thoughts?
TheAlicornSage |
The battle scion suffers the problem of only heroes having any spells. As about 10% of a population is second level, and nearly all of a standing army would come from this 10%, a fighter/arcanist multiclass (dex fighter, light armor, and arcane armor training) would be better than something like battle scion for the common troops.
Heroes are the exceptional, the point here is to have a class that that represents the professional soldier's training that expected from all of the army's soldiers, dictating tactics and capabilities, that a hero can then build on, given a world with learnable magic (or least where enough people can use magic that the military would have plenty of them).
Lady Funnyhat |
The battle scion suffers the problem of only heroes having any spells. As about 10% of a population is second level, and nearly all of a standing army would come from this 10%, a fighter/arcanist multiclass (dex fighter, light armor, and arcane armor training) would be better than something like battle scion for the common troops.
Heroes are the exceptional, the point here is to have a class that that represents the professional soldier's training that expected from all of the army's soldiers, dictating tactics and capabilities, that a hero can then build on, given a world with learnable magic (or least where enough people can use magic that the military would have plenty of them).
....in that case, aren't you basically talking about a magus?
TheAlicornSage |
While the new spell-list is better than the dnd version, the class abilities clearly place the class as a damage dealer rather than a soldier.
Also, it does the wizard thing of needing to prep the exact combo of spells to be cast. No military would accept that if they didn't need to. Honestly, I'm surprised the gaming community accept it.
My Self |
While the new spell-list is better than the dnd version, the class abilities clearly place the class as a damage dealer rather than a soldier.
Also, it does the wizard thing of needing to prep the exact combo of spells to be cast. No military would accept that if they didn't need to. Honestly, I'm surprised the gaming community accept it.
Any chance you could post what your idea would look like, mechanically?
It feels like you're talking about some sort of Medium-esque character. Lots of versatility, option to cast well, good at bashing people when necessary. Mediums can cherrypick spells if they're using their wizard-buffing spirit thing.
This idea feels rather niche and hyper-specific to a certain ideal of army you would want to have. Perhaps if you built off the Magus base with a different spell list, spontaneous or Arcanist casting, more sustainability abilities, and the option to extend spell durations using arcane pool? Full base attack bonus and casting at first level don't usually mix.
Mudfoot |
I think the real problem you have here is that at 1st-4th level, everyone's a bit rubbish. Even the very best spellcasters (wizards or sorcerers) aren't going to be very effective in a battle because their spells are short range / duration or minor effect or whatever, and any full-BAB d10 hp class must necessarily be a much worse caster than they are. Even at 4th level, wizards aren't that much use to an army outside Special Forces actions and reconnaissance.
So I'd look at what you can do with cantrip-level effects. Int 10 is fine so more people can learn them with less training; cantrips are assumed to be infinitely reusable and will last through a battle; they're unlikely to break anything.
Some of your examples above (eg Mage Armour and Shield) are little use to a soldier in a battle. Just get a breastplate and a real shield instead.
Otherwise, you might go Divine instead of Arcane. Instead of book learning, you get a priest to ordain your knights / mercenary band.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
It's noteworthy, that in a military, sorcerers would be preferred.
Having a sorcerer is like having a soldier trained in a particular weapon. They get a fixed spell list, they'll be assigned to units that complement that list, and they can use them repeatedly as needed.
Perfect for planning units and companies.
Wizards would be 'problem-solvers', like issuing a wand of a particular spell to deal with an issue, only cheaper. They wouldn't have anywhere near the staying power of a sorc in a fight, but could easily address specific issues they are there to take care of. They could do multiple jobs poorly, and extremely specific jobs quite well. They'd generally make a poor substitute for a unit's sorcerers, but could deal with issues the sorcs couldn't handle, given a little time, by being able to customize their load-out.
==Aelryinth
TheAlicornSage |
"I think the real problem you have here is that at 1st-4th level, everyone's a bit rubbish."
Actually, I have a very big problem with that statement. Those levels are rubbish only in comparison to when you are playing demigods, aka high level PCs. The absolute best people on earth are lvl 4-5. Only about 10% are lvl 2 or higher. Those levels aren't rubbish, they are just mortals.
The idea is to look at how access to magic would change the battlefield then try to build a class that even regular mortal soldiers would likely be, that is then expanded upon for higher lvls by those rare superheroes that make it beyond the realm of mere mortals but had to start somewhere.
===
As for niche and hyper specific, I'm not. There are four types of soldiers, conscripts minimal trained and mustered only as needed, yeomen basically skilled civilian contractors hired for specific tasks, professionals standing army and well trained for warfare, and elites like the spartans.
I am going for professional group. Constripts don't get enough training for a class, yeoman are covered by various other classes (hiring a few normal wizards woukd be in this group), and elites could easily be higher lvl professionals with higher point buy. I thus don't consider it hyper specific.
I am looking at modern armies though, because modern armies have capabilities beyond a mere swordsman, and those capabilities eliminated swordsman from the battlefield. Having magic would get similar results, the only real difference is the efficiency of the source of those capabilities.
Tech is advanced by knowledge and thus grows with a society, and an individual does not need to start at the beginning and create tech from the ground up. Magic is the reverse, it is advanced by practice as well as knowledge, thus each individual does need to start at the bottom and work up.
In modern armies, weapons use ammo that is cheap and can be both produced and carried in great quantities. This makes it more efficient to simply equip soldiers with premade items. Trying to do this with magic however is not efficient as creating "ammo" is very expensive, making it more efficient to teach each soldier to be a caster.
So I am indeed looking at how soldiers would be trained for full military use, from marching and setting up field camps, to fighting for hours on end. I therefore am designing a class that will be useful for 20 second encounters, but also makes sense for long term combat.
===
"Some of your examples above (eg Mage Armour and Shield) are little use to a soldier in a battle."
Really? Mage armor and shield have no physical hindrances, no armor check penalties, and leave both hands free. They also are not so heavy as to condemn a soldier to drowning in a stream, nor eating into encumbrance, and less physically exhausting. By far the spells are better, and mage armor lasts hours.
===
Sorcerers vs wizards
Sorcerers are born not made, unlike wizards. A military would love any sorcerers they can get, but they can't rely on them s they are far too limited a resource.
Additionally, wizards have far greater versatility, and versatility is invaluable to any decent commander.
All in all, the arcanist is better than a wizard or a sorcerer, as they can use whatever spell as needed without prophetic planning. They also use spellbooks which can be shared with others, meaning the military only needs to provide a single spellbook to each unit (in a format that can be read by many, such as the chinese book style that can unfold into a single long strip). This also means the spellbooks can contain spells for quickly establishing defensive positions, handling environmental hazards, peacetime military operations (such as disaster relief), as well as defensive, offensive, and support spells. A sorcerer can't do that, and a wizard would to know ahead of time exactly what spells to prepare and how many without being wrong.
TheAlicornSage |
Mechanically thinking of similar to the bard. Rather than spells. they get spell effects in a similar way to words of power. They can cast in armor, get full bab and 3/4 spellcasting. They don't get as many special features though, amd those they get are organized by specialty, engineer, heavy, infantry, cavelry, etc.
Gronka |
Everyone's just commenting on how the economy in Pathfinder doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to balanced for gameplay (ideally). The actual economic state of a setting, as well as percentage of PC classes, level distribution, commonality of spellcasters, etc, are pretty much up to the DM. Trying to figure out a realistic economy based on magic item pricing is and always will be futile. It's one of those aspects of the game that should not translate to world lore by necessity.
That was my point. The king's army can mass produce scrolls without if being a big deal even though the PCs can't get access to them. It wouldn't ruin the suspension of disbelief at all, and soldiers could all be issued scrolls before a battle or whatever. The rules about crafting and item cost have more to do with balancing the PCs than with creating a realistic world.
My point about equipment is that it would still be within the rules to say every single NPC soldier the PCs ran in to has a few scrolls ready to use; they just have access to replenishing their scrolls in a way the PCs might never have.
My Self |
Sorcerers vs wizards
Sorcerers are born not made, unlike wizards. A military would love any sorcerers they can get, but they can't rely on them s they are far too limited a resource.
Additionally, wizards have far greater versatility, and versatility is invaluable to any decent commander.
All in all, the arcanist is better than a wizard or a sorcerer, as they can use whatever spell as needed without prophetic planning. They also use spellbooks which can be shared with others, meaning the military only needs to provide a single spellbook to each unit (in a format that can be read by many, such as the chinese book style that can unfold into a single long strip). This also means the spellbooks can contain spells for quickly establishing defensive positions, handling environmental hazards, peacetime military operations (such as disaster relief), as well as defensive, offensive, and support spells. A sorcerer can't do that, and a wizard would to know ahead of time exactly what spells to prepare and how many without being wrong.
Of course everybody wants to be an arcanist, but their special casting style is half of their class. The most similar thing to arcanist casting is a Phantom Thief Rogue with Bookish Rogue and multiple copies of the Major Magic talent.
It feels like arcanist-style casters would be by far the hardest to get a hold of, since the number of spontaneous and prepared casting arcane classes (not to mention non-arcane classes) vastly outweigh the number of arcanist-style casters (1). The fluff-text suggests that arcanists draw power from themselves like sorcerers, but study like wizards, so they'd be much more difficult to find.
Mechanically thinking of similar to the bard. Rather than spells. they get spell effects in a similar way to words of power. They can cast in armor, get full bab and 3/4 spellcasting. They don't get as many special features though, amd those they get are organized by specialty, engineer, heavy, infantry, cavelry, etc.
Maybe you could draft this up? Not just explain the concept, but have an actual class build. From what I can see, you'd be breaking some Pathfinder class conventions- full BAB and 2/3 casting don't mix, and spellcasting or full BAB don't make up for a sparse chassis; every level should have a significant new ability.
Instead of actual Mage Armor, why not oracle revelation-style scaling AC bonuses? Ones that start out at 4, but increase as you level. Or perhaps a scaling bonus like the Kineticist water element defense talent. Then more talents for your class every few levels, and perhaps the ability to retrain talents on the fly, or with a few minutes of work.
Still, please post an actual build.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Sorcerers vs wizards
Sorcerers are born not made, unlike wizards. A military would love any sorcerers they can get, but they can't rely on them s they are far too limited a resource.
Additionally, wizards have far greater versatility, and versatility is invaluable to any decent commander.
All in all, the arcanist is better than a wizard or a sorcerer, as they can use whatever spell as needed without prophetic planning. They also use spellbooks which can be shared with others, meaning the military only needs to provide a single spellbook to each unit (in a format that can be read by many, such as the chinese book style that can unfold into a single long strip). This also means the spellbooks can contain spells for quickly establishing defensive positions, handling environmental hazards, peacetime military operations (such as disaster relief), as well as defensive, offensive, and support spells. A sorcerer can't do that, and a wizard would to know ahead of time exactly what spells to prepare and how many without being wrong.
I think you are exactly wrong on this.
1) Sorcerors are exactly as easy to train as wizards. You need Cha 11 and you can activate a bloodline. That's it. That's all that's required, by the rules. If the GM says you can be a sorc/wizard, all you need is the ability score.
2) the ability to spam a spell is more important to a military unit then the ability to access a broad range. Most units go into a fight with specific battle plans and tactics, and it is easy to set up a default list of known spells that can cover a broad array of situations. If a unit needs specific spells, the easiest way to handle that is simply Pages of Spell Knowledge attached to that unit, passed between sorcerers as needed.
Wizards would come into their own with Special Forces, i.e. unconventional warfare. their ability to completely change their load out and capabilities is very customizable to different special missions, but of much less use on a battlefield where firepower and spamability of useful spells is much more important. A sorcerer can be a Dispel specialist a wizard can't match without completely focusing his spell list on that approach, where the Sorc can still choose to cast fireballs and fly if needed.
A wizard on a battlefield will either run out of firepower or not have versatility. A wizard doing special missions that can swap between divination, stealth, assault, defense, sabotage, capture, destruction, assassination, misdirection, and other mission objectives simply by swapping his spell load out is extremely valuable in that function, in counterpoint to a sorc, who will usually specialize in one or two of those job duties.
Note that a Sorcerer with a Ring of Spell Knowledge, the feat Spontaneous Versatility, and a spellbook can duplicate a great deal of a wizard's day by day versatility, and even have superior flexibility with low level spells on the spot.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
oh, and as for practicing casting...that's what cantrips are for.
Creating water, Ray of frost and prestidigitation alone can do wonders for an army unit. You should be able to keep a good number of men and beasts hydrated with no issues anywhere, and only carry around emergency water in event of disaster.
==Aelryinth
Atarlost |
It's noteworthy, that in a military, sorcerers would be preferred.
Having a sorcerer is like having a soldier trained in a particular weapon. They get a fixed spell list, they'll be assigned to units that complement that list, and they can use them repeatedly as needed.
This is exactly backwards. Sorcerers get their spells unpredictably from their bloodline. They're all special snowflakes. In contrast, you can take any wizard and hand him a standard spellbook and have basically interchangeable casters you can slot into any unit.
TheAlicornSage |
"the ability to spam a spell is more important to a military unit then the ability to access a broad range."
Incorrect. The military conducts battles that last hours. Not even level 20 sorcerers get enough spells to spam magic for a significant portion of such a battle. Instead spells must be used at the right time and in the right way, and versatility increases your chances of having the right spell at the right time. Further, the ability to swap sets of spells means the spell list can be adjusted for setting up camp (spells good for establishing fortifications) or based on the terrain (spider climb to go over sheer cliffs) and battle plans (bravo company gets invisibility to flank unseen despite lack of concealment), etc. Sorcerers lack that swap ability.
"If the GM says you can be a sorc/wizard, all you need is the ability score."
There is a difference between what a player can do with a 1 in a million PC, and what the general populace can do. Additionally, while a player can choose sorcerer, characters are unable to do so.
TheAlicornSage |
It has been a while because I got stuck working 70-80 hours a week.
I have decided to drop this project in favor of making a classless d20 mod with a different spellcasting form. Though I'll only be collecting feedback and doing light discussion for a few weeks yet.
I'll post what material I have on this when I get my laptop back from my mother.
This has however given me great ideas for the narrative side of battles in fantasy worlds though, so still benefited from this thread.
I thank all participants and apologize to any who hoped for a final production.
Aralicia |
This is exactly backwards. Sorcerers get their spells unpredictably from their bloodline. They're all special snowflakes. In contrast, you can take any wizard and hand him a standard spellbook and have basically interchangeable casters you can slot into any unit.
The retraining rules allow to retrain one's bloodline; in 5 days at a 50gp cost for a 1st-level sorcerer; 15 days and 450gp for a 3rd-level one).
In addition, the Faction Guide present a 8-hour ritual to change a sorcerer's bloodline for 10 CPA (or ~3750gp), available from the Old Cults and Whispering Way bloodlines.
This give precedent to the ability to change a sorcerer bloodline. And a government-sponsored research team may have found an even cheaper way to do it. That way, any sorcerer joining could, during it's training, endure a retraining of its bloodline to better match the company he's in.
TheAlicornSage |
But even half that is ridiculous waste when considering a daily retrain of spell list.
Seriously, you are not going to have a soldier join a company just for a specific spell list, not when you can gain vastly more use out of a style that can change prepped spells every day.
One day the soldiers march, the next they setup a fob (forward operating base), the next they battle. Each of these three days require vastly different spell lists regardless of specific unit.
Das Bier |
Aelryinth wrote:This is exactly backwards. Sorcerers get their spells unpredictably from their bloodline. They're all special snowflakes. In contrast, you can take any wizard and hand him a standard spellbook and have basically interchangeable casters you can slot into any unit.It's noteworthy, that in a military, sorcerers would be preferred.
Having a sorcerer is like having a soldier trained in a particular weapon. They get a fixed spell list, they'll be assigned to units that complement that list, and they can use them repeatedly as needed.
This is incorrect. A sorceror's bloodline spells are bonus spells, and have very little to do with anything.
A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.
Specialist wizards are very inefficient at using certain spells which might become quite necessary.
Das Bier |
But even half that is ridiculous waste when considering a daily retrain of spell list.
Seriously, you are not going to have a soldier join a company just for a specific spell list, not when you can gain vastly more use out of a style that can change prepped spells every day.
One day the soldiers march, the next they setup a fob (forward operating base), the next they battle. Each of these three days require vastly different spell lists regardless of specific unit.
And all these roles can be taken care of with a little money, or a feat (Versatile Spontaneity), or a Mnemonic Vestment, or Pages of Spell Knowledge, or best of all, a Ring of Spell knowledge.
If the wizard preps for marching, he will suck at any other role...and he won't be good at the marching role, because he can't spam the spells. If they are attacked mid-march, he is COMPLETELY hosed.
A sorcerer who can use the spam spells will do the job better because he can spam the spells without changing his own ability to be up and doing what is needed outside the special needs.
In a large scale battle, quantity is every bit as important as quality. Wizards do quantity extremely poorly, and quality is often hit or miss because they can't be for certain that the optimal situation will come up.
You're trying to paint wizards as people who can go anywhere and do anything...and while that is true, it's true for adventurers and mercenaries, not standing armies. Standing armies assign people to units with specific roles. A wizard assigned to the engineer unit will have different responsibilities then a wizard assigned to field artillery, infantry, cavalry, or missile units, because their roles differ. PUlling wizards from one unit to do the job in another unit deprives the units of their spellcasters...that's not what the military would do. Militaries assign specialties, and sorcs are much better specialists then wizards are.
Wizards are generalists, and would have to be put into a unit of their own for special services...multi-use forces much like special ops are nowadays.
For line units assigned to average companies, militaries will want sorcerers with a guaranteed, predictable spell list they can take into their tactical and strategic calculations, and who are very good at the job they are assigned to.
Wizards, with their ever changing spell loads for different situations, would be a nightmare to plan for on the broad scale, because you can never be certain they will have the firepower or magical ability you need at any given time, and if they do have it, they probably can't spam it, so once and done. It's like having a sniper that can only shoot one or two bullets. OR a scout suddenly assigned to heavy infantry. Or an engineer told to get on a horse and fight. They can do the job, but not as well as the specialists at that job.
So what you'd get is wizards assigned to where they are needed, told to memorize spells to supplement sorcerers permanently attached to specific areas/duties. They'd probably look down on one another...the wizards cocky that they can do anything that needs to be done, and the sorcerors because they are better at their chosen jobs then any wizard can ever be.
Furthermore, all you need is Pages of Spell Knowledge or similar stuff for any sorceror to be attached to any particular unit. When he leaves, he leaves the pages behind, and the next sorc can spam those spells just as well. The sorc becomes just the modular administrator of the needed spells.
I will note to you that a Page of Spell Knowledge just requires the caster to be holding onto it. You could line up three sorcs in a row, holding onto the Page, and cast the spells you needed one after another. Whatever Sorc is on hand, just give him the spell of the day and let him cast. He still has ALL his other normal spells available, if you don't drain him dry.
Das Bier |
Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.
And this is totally incorrect and not by the rules.
Sorcerers pick the spells they want to learn. Bloodline spells are those they have no choice what to learn.
You are intimating that sorcerers have no choices on picking spells known, which is NOT part of the rules. A sorcerer's absolute flexibility in picking what his SPells Known are is as much a part of the class as a wizard's ability to change his spells every day, including NOT having to make a spellcraft check to learn spells beyond his free ones.
If sorcs had no control over picking their spells known, they'd roll randomly for them, not pick them. That is clearly NOT the case.
TheAlicornSage |
Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.
Considering that the rules explicitly state that sorcerers can learn spells they can study even if not on their spell list, as adjudicated by the gm, I think you are incorrect.
TheAlicornSage |
"And all these roles can be taken care of with a little money, or a feat (Versatile Spontaneity), or a Mnemonic Vestment, or Pages of Spell Knowledge, or best of all, a Ring of Spell knowledge."
Far too expensive for general field equipment.
The feat is pointless for common soldiers as they will never gain 2nd lvl slots, limiting them to using the feat on cantrips.
TheAlicornSage |
"If the wizard preps for marching, he will suck at any other role...and he won't be good at the marching role, because he can't spam the spells. If they are attacked mid-march, he is COMPLETELY hosed."
Incorrect as a major part of the travelling prep is to act as quick response to ambush and/or see the ambush well ahead of time.
Spamming spells is never feasible for a general military. PCs can get by with it only because they can use the 15-min workday after 1-2 encounters each less than a minute, usually less than 18-24 seconds. An army fights for hundreds to thousands of rounds. No spells above cantrips can be spammed for hundreds of rounds, not even by lvl 20 casters, much less lvl 2-3.
Only cantrips can be spammed, and since they are infinite, no class wins on spamming volume, but rather by the breadth of usable selection, in which all the wizards/arcanists can adapt daily, unlike the sorcerer which will always be split (whether on an individual basis, or by group).
Therefore, arguments about spamming ability are just silly.
TheAlicornSage |
"In a large scale battle, quantity is every bit as important as quality. Wizards do quantity extremely poorly, and quality is often hit or miss because they can't be for certain that the optimal situation will come up."
Wizards/arcanists are not that bad compared to sorcerers, worse yes, but not insanely terrible.
But it doesn't really matter, as mentioned before, the difference between 10 and 15 spells cast over the course of hundreds to thousands of rounds of actions is not that exceptional.
Das Bier |
No, arguments about spamming are silly if that's what you are talking about, because in your field of view, only cantrips can be spammed.
Anyone can spam cantrips. Sorcs and wizzies have no differences if the only thing you are talking about are things to cast every single round.
And all wizards and sorcs are level 1-2? In which case, there IS no loadout they can change to do their job. That job is all for higher level casters, at which point...everything I said is VERY appropriate for general use casters assigned to a company of men. They are tools for the company, in the same way a couple horse, a suit of masterwork full plate, or a good chuck wagon with supplies are.
Spam means to repeat. Wizards don't spam unless they specifically plan for it. Sorcs can spam if they need to, at ANY time.
So, if you need four fireballs to make sure the trolls stay dead, the sorc can do it. Or cast four dispels instead at the enemy's buff spells, making them suddenly vulnerable to an attack. Or four web spells to close off an area of a battlefield. Or four summons to buy some time for soldiers to retreat.
A wizard simply isn't and can't do that without destroying his own versatility. Every spell he casts makes him less and less useful and less able to do a caster's job.
a sorc is only useless when he runs out of spell slots. Everything is still available up until that point.
I'm not sure where your resistance on this point is coming from. Sorcs are easy to train...they don't need academies or schools. They just get their magic. Any spells that need to be cast, they can cast more then a wizard. Wizards will find themselves moved all over to do their jobs, to assist the specialists, the sorcs, or to do 'adventurer' things that need an extremely wide variety of spells and good pre-planning.
But if you're talking jobs and roles that are going to be repeated over and over? Get a sorc with the right Spells Known, and leave the wizards to the uncommon corner-case jobs.
TheAlicornSage |
"Standing armies assign people to units with specific roles."
Not quite. While units may have specializations, there are at least two caveats.
First, to paraphrase a military saying, every soldier is a rifleman first, a specialist second. A soldier learns all the different tasks up to a basic level of competency, and their mos is just the thing they practice beyond that. Any soldier can fill in for guard duty, qrf, fortifying, asault, etc.
Second, modern militaries have such specializations moatly because we are stuck with equipment based abilities. We might make a tank for assault, but if we do it can't transform overnight into a scout vehicle, nor into an anti-air tank.
However, magic armies are knowledge based. A wizard/arcanist can be perfectly suited for assault one day and perfectly suited for scouting the next.
The neat thing here is that it allows you to have all your arcanists setup for assault during a battle, then setup for fortifying after. Sorcerers can't.
TheAlicornSage |
"guaranteed, predictable spell list they can take into their tactical and strategic calculations,"
Umm, this applies to wizards/arcanists as well as sorcerers, except that when the general thinks "it would be nice to have more mages to drop webs covering this ridge" he can grab wizards/arcanists from anywhere and have them prep web. Can't do that with sorcerers.
And Arcanists/wizards can prep whatever they are told to, thus giving the same amd indeed greater predictability for planning. as there is no need to identify what spells a particular unit had available, instead they can just tell those units to prep whatever spells the general wants them to use.
Atarlost |
Atarlost wrote:Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.And this is totally incorrect and not by the rules.
Sorcerers pick the spells they want to learn. Bloodline spells are those they have no choice what to learn.
You are intimating that sorcerers have no choices on picking spells known, which is NOT part of the rules. A sorcerer's absolute flexibility in picking what his SPells Known are is as much a part of the class as a wizard's ability to change his spells every day, including NOT having to make a spellcraft check to learn spells beyond his free ones.
If sorcs had no control over picking their spells known, they'd roll randomly for them, not pick them. That is clearly NOT the case.
You're confusing the player with the charachter. Sorcerers have no choice as to what race they're born or to what background they're born into. Do you roll randomly for race and traits? For that matter they have no choice of what bloodline they're born with or even being born with any bloodline at all. Do you randomly roll for class?
Of course you don't. There are loads of choices the player makes that the to the characters inside the story are chance or fate.
TheAlicornSage |
"So, if you need four fireballs to make sure the trolls stay dead, the sorc can do it. Or cast four dispels instead at the enemy's buff spells, making them suddenly vulnerable to an attack. Or four web spells to close off an area of a battlefield. Or four summons to buy some time for soldiers to retreat."
First, I've only ever heard of spam as to mean to repeat something primarily, such as doing nothing but throwing fireballs. Previous conversations held sorcerers as the spammers because they got so many more spells per days, not from their spontaneousness. Thus my resistance based on sorcerers not having enough of an edge in spells per day. Using your definition, repeat castings have value but I'd still value versatility more. Consider 30 wizards/arcanists with assault spells instead of 10 sorcerers (because the other 20 specialized elsewhere). Sure those 10 sorcerers might cast fireball more than 30 wizards, (not more than 30 arcanists), but 30 wizards can be in more places at once, and those wizards will have every last spell slot devoted to assault in a variety of spells, while the sorcerers are less likely to have the right spell at the right time in the right place.
Those sorcerers are also less likely to have the fireball spell at all, and if not, there isn't much that can be done without undertaking extreme expense.
More, damage spells would be rare. Control, buffs, and manipulation would be the order of the day.
Also, any potential soldier can be trained as a wizard, but not so for sorcerers.
Second, I did awhile ago mention arcanists being the better option all around. Can even adjust spells known during combat.
TheAlicornSage |
Das Bier wrote:Atarlost wrote:Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.And this is totally incorrect and not by the rules.
Sorcerers pick the spells they want to learn. Bloodline spells are those they have no choice what to learn.
You are intimating that sorcerers have no choices on picking spells known, which is NOT part of the rules. A sorcerer's absolute flexibility in picking what his SPells Known are is as much a part of the class as a wizard's ability to change his spells every day, including NOT having to make a spellcraft check to learn spells beyond his free ones.
If sorcs had no control over picking their spells known, they'd roll randomly for them, not pick them. That is clearly NOT the case.
You're confusing the player with the charachter. Sorcerers have no choice as to what race they're born or to what background they're born into. Do you roll randomly for race and traits? For that matter they have no choice of what bloodline they're born with or even being born with any bloodline at all. Do you randomly roll for class?
Of course you don't. There are loads of choices the player makes that the to the characters inside the story are chance or fate.
Sorcerers don't pick bloodline spells, but they do pick their normal spells. The rules explicitly state that a sorcerer can study an unusual spell they find and learn it, even if not on their normal spell list, at the discretion of the gm. This means that a sorcerer has at least some say in their normal spell selection.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Atarlost wrote:Sorcerers don't pick bloodline spells, but they do pick their normal spells. The rules explicitly state that a sorcerer can study an unusual spell they find and learn it, even if not on their normal spell list, at the discretion of the gm. This means that a sorcerer has at least some say in their normal spell selection.Das Bier wrote:Atarlost wrote:Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.And this is totally incorrect and not by the rules.
Sorcerers pick the spells they want to learn. Bloodline spells are those they have no choice what to learn.
You are intimating that sorcerers have no choices on picking spells known, which is NOT part of the rules. A sorcerer's absolute flexibility in picking what his SPells Known are is as much a part of the class as a wizard's ability to change his spells every day, including NOT having to make a spellcraft check to learn spells beyond his free ones.
If sorcs had no control over picking their spells known, they'd roll randomly for them, not pick them. That is clearly NOT the case.
You're confusing the player with the charachter. Sorcerers have no choice as to what race they're born or to what background they're born into. Do you roll randomly for race and traits? For that matter they have no choice of what bloodline they're born with or even being born with any bloodline at all. Do you randomly roll for class?
Of course you don't. There are loads of choices the player makes that the to the characters inside the story are chance or fate.
It's the player of the sorcerer that picked them, just as he picked the race, class, ability score distribution, place of birth, and everything else about the character.
TheAlicornSage |
To quote the core rules section on magic, "With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring."
The only way encountering a spell would have any effect on what spells a sorcerer could learn is if a sorcerer can choose what spells they know. Now it might be through intuition, but it is still them wanting and achieving a particular effect of their own choice.
If they had zero choice in spells, then encountering a spell would have zero effect on what spell they learned.
And note that sorcerers are explicitly called out.
Aralicia |
It's the player of the sorcerer that picked them, just as he picked the race, class, ability score distribution, place of birth, and everything else about the character.
To AlicornSage answer, I'll add (emphasis mine) :
"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study." (Core Rulebook p71, the sorcerer's Spells feature)
The class itself, in his feature's description, tell us that a sorcerer character may learn his spells through study. That means that he, the character, has a form of control over his known spells.
Moreover, Ultimate Campaign explicitly says that the sorcerer as capable to retrain his spells known :
"If you are a spontaneous spellcaster (such as a bard, oracle, sorcerer, or summoner), you can retrain a spell known." (Ultimate Campaign p191, Retraining Rules, Spells known)
Das Bier |
Das Bier wrote:Atarlost wrote:Das Bier wrote:A sorceror picks his Spells Known like anyone else, and can be guided into the choices like anyone else.A player picks his spells. A sorcerer no more picks his spells than he picks to have been born a half-orc.And this is totally incorrect and not by the rules.
Sorcerers pick the spells they want to learn. Bloodline spells are those they have no choice what to learn.
You are intimating that sorcerers have no choices on picking spells known, which is NOT part of the rules. A sorcerer's absolute flexibility in picking what his SPells Known are is as much a part of the class as a wizard's ability to change his spells every day, including NOT having to make a spellcraft check to learn spells beyond his free ones.
If sorcs had no control over picking their spells known, they'd roll randomly for them, not pick them. That is clearly NOT the case.
You're confusing the player with the charachter. Sorcerers have no choice as to what race they're born or to what background they're born into. Do you roll randomly for race and traits? For that matter they have no choice of what bloodline they're born with or even being born with any bloodline at all. Do you randomly roll for class?
Of course you don't. There are loads of choices the player makes that the to the characters inside the story are chance or fate.
And you're trying to write a novel where game mechancis applies.
Did I mention traits? No, they're irrelevant.
Did I mention race? No, it's irrelevant.
Did I mention bloodline? No, it's irrelevant.
You need base spellcasting ability, and by the rules of a class, you get to pick your own spells.
Trying to argue that a sorceror can't pick spells as directed is like trying to argue a Fighter cannot pick his feats. I have no idea WHERE you are getting this argument from the game rules. It's a storybook idea that is not part of the game.
Das Bier |
"Standing armies assign people to units with specific roles."
Not quite. While units may have specializations, there are at least two caveats.
First, to paraphrase a military saying, every soldier is a rifleman first, a specialist second. A soldier learns all the different tasks up to a basic level of competency, and their mos is just the thing they practice beyond that. Any soldier can fill in for guard duty, qrf, fortifying, asault, etc.
Second, modern militaries have such specializations moatly because we are stuck with equipment based abilities. We might make a tank for assault, but if we do it can't transform overnight into a scout vehicle, nor into an anti-air tank.
However, magic armies are knowledge based. A wizard/arcanist can be perfectly suited for assault one day and perfectly suited for scouting the next.
The neat thing here is that it allows you to have all your arcanists setup for assault during a battle, then setup for fortifying after. Sorcerers can't.
A sorceror is a guaranteed rifleman, because he will always have those rifle spells as part of his spells known.
A wizard can be an assaulter one day and a scout the next. he will not be as good as a sorceror with the spells to be an assaulter, nor as stealthy as a sorc with the spells to be a scout, if for no other reason then the sorc is going to be a full time scout and full time rifleman and either role is available, all the time.The wizard has to pick, and gets worse at them the more he casts. This is the problem of the wizard. He will never be as good at the role as a sorc who is good at the role, simply because he can't spam the spells so much.
Das Bier |
"So, if you need four fireballs to make sure the trolls stay dead, the sorc can do it. Or cast four dispels instead at the enemy's buff spells, making them suddenly vulnerable to an attack. Or four web spells to close off an area of a battlefield. Or four summons to buy some time for soldiers to retreat."
First, I've only ever heard of spam as to mean to repeat something primarily, such as doing nothing but throwing fireballs. Previous conversations held sorcerers as the spammers because they got so many more spells per days, not from their spontaneousness. Thus my resistance based on sorcerers not having enough of an edge in spells per day. Using your definition, repeat castings have value but I'd still value versatility more. Consider 30 wizards/arcanists with assault spells instead of 10 sorcerers (because the other 20 specialized elsewhere). Sure those 10 sorcerers might cast fireball more than 30 wizards, (not more than 30 arcanists), but 30 wizards can be in more places at once, and those wizards will have every last spell slot devoted to assault in a variety of spells, while the sorcerers are less likely to have the right spell at the right time in the right place.
Those sorcerers are also less likely to have the fireball spell at all, and if not, there isn't much that can be done without undertaking extreme expense.
More, damage spells would be rare. Control, buffs, and manipulation would be the order of the day.
Also, any potential soldier can be trained as a wizard, but not so for sorcerers.
Second, I did awhile ago mention arcanists being the better option all around. Can even adjust spells known during combat.
Well, now you know Spam means to repeat. Thank Monte Python. It doesn't mean to only do one thing to the exclusion of all else.
As for your example: if all sorcs are riflemen, then you have to break it down by function.
So, do all sorcs learn fireball? If so, they will be throwing out 2-3 TIMES the amount of fireballs of a wizard of the same level, unless that wizard has NO other 3rd level spells.
So, now we're into specialties. Let's say, scouting. Wizards can't go as far or as deep as the sorc scouts, because the sorcs with that MOS will have Ranks devoted to it, and can spam invisibility and fly and gaseous form repeatedly, rather then use them once or twice.
And the sorcs'll still be able to be riflemen, while wizards will either be lousy scouts or bad riflemen, because they can't flip options between both on the fly, and repeat the needed spells.
"Oh, I want this ridge covered in web spells. I'll give my thirty sorcs a single Page of Spell Knowledge to share, and I'll get three times as many webs as those wizards learning one spell each." See how that works? We're talking an army with resources here. Those thirty wizards will have thirty spellbooks with the spell, most likely, and the unit needs one Page of SPell Knowledge to get the same out of its sorcs. Same cost as two suits of full plate, and MUCH more useful.
So, Yes, I totally agree with you, the wizard can change his role every day, and it makes him very useful...for backup to the specialists who have that role ALL the time, the sorcs.
As for predictability...wizards change their spells. They'll get moved around to where they are needed. Their spells will change. On a tactical, day to day level, you can sort of predict what they can do. But on a strategic level, you can be absolutely sure all of your sorcs are riflemen, all the time, and then they are specialists in their specific areas.
Wizards would indeed get moved around to help deal with individual situations, but they'd always be backup to the sorcs doing that job full time, who would be better at it. It's just what sorcs ARE.
And sorcs can access specific spells 1/day, just like a wizard, with a Mnemonic Vestment; can memorize spells with the feat Versatile Spontaneity for special circumstances, and can insta-learn and change a low level Spell Known repeatedly adn on the fly with a Ring of Spell Knowledge, something no Wizard can do.
I agree that wizards would be a tremendous asset, being able to throw extra spellpower at a single pre-planned need would be enormously useful. However, they would always be backup to the sorcs who do that task full time, amplifying and complementing their efforts...and with a little time and gold, sorcs could do the same sort of job.
as for 'any soldier can be a wizard, but not a sorc'...every class level is a choice and training. There's no special requirement to activating a bloodline. Those are 'storybook' requirements. In the rules, there is no such thing.
AoE spells are useful on a battlefield becasue they are Area of Effect. Most low level control, buff and manipulation are single or small AoE, and become totally irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. Haste is the best low level buff spell, and a 6th level caster affects 6 soldiers. Wahoo? A fireball or lightning bolt, on the other hand, can affect dozens of men who are clustered up, and is powerful enough to kill level 1-2 soldiers without a problem.
And if you want a buff, a 6th level sorc with 16 cha can cast 3 Haste spells and still have a fireball left over, potentially. Or 6 scorching Rays, if you have to take down a single target. Potentially with bloodlines adding +1 or +2 per die of damage. And using Magical Lineage to finagle an Empower on top, if need be. Who knows?
As you noted, you need 2-3x as many wizards to do the specific job a sorceror is built for. That's an extravagant expenditure of manpower. Because they wouldn't do the base job as well as a sorc, wizards would likely indeed be assigned to their own unit, and then parcelled out to help the sorcs get specific things done faster then they would otherwise. The need to 'always be a rifleman' would sap at their ability to do this, but it would still be an accelerant.
TheAlicornSage |
I'll need to respond later to the other stuff, but for the moment,
"It's a storybook idea that is not part of the game."
"Those are 'storybook' requirements. In the rules, there is no such thing."
For many of us, the mechanics are nothing more than a tool for interacting with the story. If the mechanics are unable to represent the story, then the mechanics are broken and need fixed (although I admit this is in a different sense than "mechanical balance" type broken).
There are two opposite playstyle philosophies,
1) The story is the game, not the mechanics.
2)The mechanics are the game, the story is just pretty window dressing.
(sure there is a bit of a scale in between, though no true fusion of the two)
I am completely in the first camp. To me the story is the game, and the mechanics serve no purpose other than to make playing easier.
Some of your arguments are valid from the othr side, where mechanics are the only concern, but not so when the story is the only concern.
Balthichou |
Now I think it's not unreal to imagine any serious military force (and by that I mean a country) either doing selective breeding to get sorcerers, or having some soldiers go throught ritual to "awaken" their dormant bloodlines... We do have a "human" sorcerer bloodline in the form of the Imperious bloodline after all.
TheAlicornSage |
First, any equipment used in battle or there abouts, cannot be reliably shared. Thus requiring 30 sorcerers to use the page of whatever item to drop webs won't work in general, because in the real field, those 30 sorcerers will be spread out over a large area.
Try this,
With 30 soldiers,
A) With sorcerers you split them up,
A1)sorcerers are split into specialist groups. In this case only 10 of your soldiers are usable at any one time. Only ten for marching, only ten for establishing camp, and only ten to fight.
A2) each sorcerer knows a little of each, in which case only one third of their spells apply at any one time, meaning that only one third will have fireballs to hit those surprise trolls.
B) wizards,
Wizards with an equal investment to the above, are better than A1 because all 30 soldiers can do each job, which means more soldiers to work with in accomplishing each job.
Wizards are better than A2 becuase they will have all have relevent spells and a larger variety of spells thus more likely be able to handle the unexpected.
Of course, once again, arcanists have the best of both.
Also, spamming, in either sense, isn't much of a worry as spells play the role of turning the tide, rather than being primary offense (unless the enemy does something stupid).
Das Bier |
I'm not tracking you.
If the sorcs are normally split into 3 units of 10 and you need them for a special purpose, you have them come over, give them the Page of Spell Knowledge, and in Five minutes you've set up your web spells.
You seem to be saying that you can't assign them all to one unit for temporary duty. That's like saying you can't split up the wizards for different duties. It's just not true.
If you're talking about in the middle of a battle, then your 10 spec sorcerers already can throw out the same amount of webs on demand as the 30 wizards, because they have spell slots, not spells memorized. Moreover, they can do it RIGHT NOW, instead of waiting for quick study, if it becomes a 'sudden brilliant idea'.
If you're planning on doing it 'ahead of time'...then you can plan for other sorcs to help out as well. Battlefields are not something that are set up in seconds, and most battles last for a good period of time, not mere seconds. You're also talking ranged attacks, which can be coordinated from behind the lines.
And like your wizards, if you don't need the ten sorcs out scouting...you can have them help out somewhere else. They are spellcasters! Use them! Their fireball is still as good as any wizard's!
You're calling fireball a specialist spell. I'm calling it a grenade for the rifleman. And regardless, every 6th level sorc with Fireball can throw three of them. If they have scorching ray, they can toss out SIX of them. Each is going to be worth 3 wizards tossing the spell. The wizards will be there for support for the sorcs if they don't have enough firepower to deal with the problem...30 wizards matching the damage output of 10 sorcs! And that is without including bloodlines for additional damage for the sorcs!
And if every spellcaster MUST be a rifleman, what are the rifleman spells? I'd guess magic missile, Scorching Ray and Fireball. The odds of a Wizard being a Fireball Spell Specialist are slim...being able to cast multiple fireballs is a sorc's job, and a waste of a feat. The wizard's job is to be able to back up every single sorcerer in the army, or at least do a temporary fill in if required, if not as ably.
----------------
Your story argument is not inappropriate, but here in the forums it falls under House Rules, and we are not talking House Rules. You might as well be arguing that every would-be wizard MUST have at least 5 years of magical training to be a wizard. That is NOT part of the rules, either. A barbarian with no education and 11 Int can take a level of Wizard if he wants to. Retraining someone from an NPC class to a PC class takes, I believe, 3 days by the rules.
You are, in effect, giving a built-in story advantage to wizards. As a counterpoint, IMO campaign, you have to have a bloodline to practice magic. Wizards are, in effect, crappy sorcerers who realized they couldn't wield a bloodline, so they figured out the rules behind magic so they could tap the power of their heritage. Not all humans have bloodlines...but the humans who do NOT have bloodlines have special abilities related to not having magic at all. And having a bloodline has no effect on wizardry, of course...intellectual wizardry relies on bloodline to open the lock, not turn the knob and walk through the door.
I find it extremely strange that in a world of magic, the ability to learn things at an accelerated pace is considered unrealistic, too.