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I don't see it mentioned in any posts by Pathfinder Design Team, i.e. no FAQ. I don't see any errata for Inner Sea Gods at all, and the text of the feat on the Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd both agree with the book (except for d20pfsrd not using Urgathoa's name). I conclude that it has not changed and still allows exactly what it allowed to begin with... for good or ill.
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The feat says "potions, elixirs, and other potables." I'd presume that to mean alchemical items, mutagens, vials, etc., though some further clarification as to what "other potables" specifically refers to would be helpful. And the feat still mentions you do so as a Swift Action, so I figure it still functions as it does.
The thing I don't understand is how the normal is "Drinking potions is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity," when by the rules, it's a Standard Action, and I don't see any feat pre-requisites or anything.
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I see the problem more that you need the potable in hand to drink it as a swift action, while the standard action to drink an extract includes drawing it.
As a GM I think I would rule that for extracts Potion Glutton doesn't include the drawing of the extract. You could still benefit from it by using a move action to draw it, a swift to drink it, and still have a standard for the round.
To me this seems to most closely follow the rules, but from previous discussions I know there are other opinions on what RAW says
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Or quick draw which negates it.I see the problem more that you need the potable in hand to drink it as a swift action, while the standard action to drink an extract includes drawing it.
As a GM I think I would rule that for extracts Potion Glutton doesn't include the drawing of the extract. You could still benefit from it by using a move action to draw it, a swift to drink it, and still have a standard for the round.
To me this seems to most closely follow the rules, but from previous discussions I know there are other opinions on what RAW says
Quick draw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action. You need a lenient GM to allow you to draw other things with it (hence table variation)
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Relevant FAQ supports being able to draw weapon-like objects as if they were weapons, though that then leads to the question as to what constitutes a weapon-like object.
Unfortunately, there's no proof that an Extract is a Weapon-like Object, meaning the ability to draw an Extract via Quick Draw is off the table.
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Relevant FAQ supports being able to draw weapon-like objects as if they were weapons, though that then leads to the question as to what constitutes a weapon-like object.
Unfortunately, there's no proof that an Extract is a Weapon-like Object, meaning the ability to draw an Extract via Quick Draw is off the table.
IF you can state that an iron vial causes damage when thrown, and you store your extracts in an iron vial, they would be weapons that simply contained another liquid. Like a weapon with an empty hilt.
Quick Draw specifically disallows alchemical items, so that's out.
Other than that....G$@ d%+n it PDT, putting in a few lines of reasons in your FAQs would solve a lot of questions. The Accelerated Drinker + Extracts ruling just says "no". The reasoning behind it, IIRC, was "Alchemist class abilities take the actions they say they take".
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We all know that extracts are basically a different flavor for spells, and you all know that casting a spell as a swift would break your game utterly. So... I think you all know the answer to this. Potion glutton is for potions.
And for other potables. If PF wanted to make a 'drink caster', as well as stating the similarities between extracts and potions, and then makes unclear text like this about drinking potions as well as other potables, they should be required to say if these apply to extracts. They at least ruled on accelerated drinker, so this should be no different.
As for game breaking, you can already speed drink with familiar/poisoner's gloves shenanigans, this was made after that, and familiar/poisoner's gloves shenanigans are known to the devs.
Even accelerated drinker is a gamist ruling since in game there's no physical difference between a potion and an extract (Something the rules of extracts make clear), so I think this is a perfectly valid question.
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Poisoner's glove are nice for a 5K item, but only good for 2 infusions per day. Potion Glutton works for as many rounds you want and only limited by the amount of drinking stuff you carry (check that STR dump stat, unless you carry your potion crates in some kind of extradimensional space... ;) )
I don't have a problem with Potion Glutton applying to alchemical liquids and alcohol (potables usually refers to booze, anyhow) but infusions should, obviously, not be allowed. Otherwise every alchemist and investigator would have that feat to cast as a swift action - it would be a no brainer really, as it has no mechanical prereq and can be taken at first level.
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This is why most people who are talking about it are mentioning the move action to draw the item as well, since P. Glut doesn't help with that. It's not even like you can speed it up with spring loaded wrist sheathes, as they're also a swift action, so there's no net gain there.
A swift and a move to drink a potion is still pretty good, I won't deny that. But it's best at early levels, and really only amazing for bombers.
1-7 (pre fast bombs), you can move+swift a potion, throw a bomb, nice.
Natural attackers are only getting 1 attack, weapon wielders are only getting 1 attack (even with haste), everyone else isn't getting nearly as big a benefit.
Personally, if PG gets ruled that it doesn't need a move action to draw, I'll agree with you 100%, I'd take it on everyone. But as it stands now, it's not broken, just very good. Kind of like buying 5 pairs of poisoner's gloves once you're high enough level to afford them easily and switching them out like quick runner's shirts.
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You have to think higher level too. A guy with two gloves of storing can drink two infusions with this, and still take a move action on top of that (to draw a potion and store it in the glove).
Round 2 start, move action to draw potion 2, store it as well... (just cause you can) and you can still drink those two infusions during round 2 as you have a swift and a standard left. Or you just drink one infusion that round, and keep those two for next round.
So in effect, you've become a caster that can cast 2 spells, 1 spell, 2 spells, 1 spell, etc. Or 2 spells, 2 spells, then 1 spell.
1/2/1/2/etc. if you start the fight with gloves empty;
2/2/1/2/1/etc. if you start the fight 'pre-loaded'
This is pretty broken IMO. The moment you start thinking of infusions as objects instead of 'standard action to cast a spell' terms, you run into such nonsense.
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I'm assuming the feat does what it says it does. Not what people think it ought to do, to fit what they think would be balanced. There's no way we're going to get that unwritten consensus thing to really work.
Extracts are potables. Therefore you can drink them Swift. But the feat doesn't let you draw them for free, so that'll cost you a Move.
And that Move action is the balancer, such as it is. It means you can't drink up AND move around. It means you can't drink up AND full attack. And that's very significant.
Even so, it's an extremely powerful feat. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets changed at some point. Because making one attack per round and drinking an extract as well - it's what the rules are right now, but it might be too good to last.
However, how would you change it, so that it's still worthwhile for it's official main goal - potions? If you change the drinking to Move, is it really worthwhile for anyone except tieflings (prehensile tail)? Switching the action on potion from draw(move)+drink(std) to draw(move)+drink(std) is pretty pointless. You could have some advantage if you start a combat with a potion in hand and don't need to walk anywhere, but that's a rather marginal case.
You have to think higher level too. A guy with two gloves of storing can drink two infusions with this, and still take a move action on top of that (to draw a potion and store it in the glove).
You can't wear two gloves of storing.
A glove of storing uses up your entire hands slot. You may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.
yes, but they still don't want someone lining up dozens of mutagens and extracts and drinking them willy nilly after making them ahead of time. That's the kind of thing which really starts grinding teeth, effectively duplicating multi-day duration spells.
==Aelryinth
yes, but they still don't want someone lining up dozens of mutagens and extracts and drinking them willy nilly after making them ahead of time. That's the kind of thing which really starts grinding teeth, effectively duplicating multi-day duration spells.
==Aelryinth
You can only make one mutagen at a time though.
yes, but they still don't want someone lining up dozens of mutagens and extracts and drinking them willy nilly after making them ahead of time. That's the kind of thing which really starts grinding teeth, effectively duplicating multi-day duration spells.
==Aelryinth
Wait so you are telling me your generic wizard doing the same thing isn't teeth grinding?
It looks to me by RAW it works.
I also don't feel it's op because I've played a WP and fervor is pretty much fair although it creates a feeling of "If this combat goes on too long I'll win but there is the real chance it goes only 1-2 rounds."
I genuinely don't feel the investigator is competitive with the other classes released and that this would be a nice step up. The alchemist I also don't feel is OP at all so once again a nice step up.
No, I'm telling you that extracts and mutagens are basically free class abilities.
Potions cost time and money.
If you can make and store up extracts and mutagens, and then chain drink them, that's the exact them as casting a buff spell yesterday and having it take effect today without using spell slots or gold.
And they probably want to avoid that.
===Aelryinth
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Paizo makes no errors and RAW is god. Remember that!
==Aelryinth
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Paizo makes no errors and RAW is god. Remember that!
==Aelryinth
The meaning of the feat is quite clear. Extracts are potable, and are also the thing most similar to potions in the game. So it definitely applies.
Should it apply, is an entirely different issue. You think it shouldn't, because it would be OP. I can appreciate that point, and I think it's very likely that the feat will change if ISG gets a reprint.
But right now, the rule is clear, even if you think writing it that way was a mistake.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I always read "other potables" to mean things like wine skins of alcohol and things like that.
I didn't read it to function as a quicken spell for all alchemist spells. It may or may not mean to quicken a whole class's spell casting. I'd like to see a FAQ.
So please everyone in this thread click FAQ on the 1st post.
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I always read "other potables" to mean things like wine skins of alcohol and things like that.
According to the dictionary, it's anything that's clean and safe to drink. Extracts meet that requirement. (With the possible exception of Cure extracts for undead worshipers of Urgathoa, I suppose.)
The feat is centered around potions. Extracts are more similar to potions than mundane liquids are to potions.
I didn't read it to function as a quicken spell for all alchemist spells.
It's not. Quicken is only a swift action. This also requires you to have the extract (or potion) ready, so Move + Swift. That's just not the same.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's not. Quicken is only a swift action. This also requires you to have the extract (or potion) ready, so Move + Swift. That's just not the same.
But you don't have an extract ready until you prepare it. Preparing it and drinking it is the same standard action.
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It's not. Quicken is only a swift action. This also requires you to have the extract (or potion) ready, so Move + Swift. That's just not the same.But you don't have an extract ready until you prepare it. Preparing it and drinking it is the same standard action.
I believe you are mistaken, extracts need to be prepared ahead of time. Perhaps you are thinking of an Alchemist's bombs which are inert until prepared and thrown.
Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it's not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.
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It's not. Quicken is only a swift action. This also requires you to have the extract (or potion) ready, so Move + Swift. That's just not the same.But you don't have an extract ready until you prepare it. Preparing it and drinking it is the same standard action.I believe you are mistaken, extracts need to be prepared ahead of time. Perhaps you are thinking of an Alchemist's bombs which are inert until prepared and thrown.
Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it's not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.
Even if normal extracts did, it's just another reason to have the infusion discovery, which would bypass that since the extracts you hand out don't need to be activated, and just about everyone is taking infusion anyways due to things like familiar shenanigoats and such.
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The PDT doesn't do FAQs on non core-line work. The closest they've done to that was some encouraging for the Golarion team to answer the Freebooter Ranger archetype question.
Your best bet is to ask the question in the product discussion page for the product it came from.
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I mean it's very clear that the definition of potable is drinkable.
Honestly... who cares about that actual definition? haven't you all played this game for years now? do you really think that some feat called "Potion Glutton" is meant to quicken cast all extracts for alchemists and investigators?
For crying out loud, even if this would work on extracts, aren't you a bit worried that the equivalent, on the wiz/sor side, has the following little caveat to it?
--> "A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. "
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The alchemist player would argue that it's simply the equivalent of the warpriest's ability to cast buff spells as swift actions at level 1, PDK.
==Aelryinth
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I mean it's very clear that the definition of potable is drinkable.Honestly... who cares about that actual definition? haven't you all played this game for years now? do you really think that some feat called "Potion Glutton" is meant to quicken cast all extracts for alchemists and investigators?
For crying out loud, even if this would work on extracts, aren't you a bit worried that the equivalent, on the wiz/sor side, has the following little caveat to it?
--> "A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. "
Who cares about the actual words used to identify how the rules work? I would hope the development team, which is precisely the problem here when things like this are printed.
Again, it's not like there's no precedent for for extracts working differently. You can't stick a self only spell into a pair of gloves that can be used by someone else to inject you with a spell for its full duration, and yet poisoner's gloves (which the name is their worst use) can do just that. Yeah, it cost 5k, but it's 5k for 2 uses and changes it from a swift into a non-action easily abusable by a familiar.
Besides, what does it matter how long we've been playing, lazy writing for an ability is going to cause problems. Perhaps had the text been clear, or the rules text for extracts not likened them so much to potions in use, we wouldn't be having this problem.
I know that if we get a ruling on this, it'll be ruled that extracts don't apply, that's probably the RAI considering accelerated drinker (which is less powerful in this respect), but perhaps this can finally send a message that when you write a potion specific ability, you have to account for a class that has potion like mechanics that has existed for years.
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The alchemist player would be wrong, as feats meant to modify a class feature clearly spell it out in their description.The alchemist player would argue that it's simply the equivalent of the warpriest's ability to cast buff spells as swift actions at level 1, PDK.
==Aelryinth
Unfortunately nothing in the rules actually says or implies this.