Hi, everyone!
I've tried to wrap my mind around how one of my player's character build works and I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
So, we have a human Fighter(Two-Handed Ftr archetype)8/Barbarian2 with Tier 3 from Mythic Adventures.
His STR is 26 (+8). So, without using Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Vital Strike his single and full attacks would look like this:
1.Single attack & dmg (overhand chop) [+3 greataxe]
+22 Attack = BAB 10 + STR 8 + Weapon Focus (W.F.) 1 + Greataxe 3
1d12+15 Dmg = STR 8 + THW (overhand chop) 4 + Greataxe 3
2.Full attack & dmg (backswing) [+3 greataxe]
Attack: +22/+17; First attack dmg: 1d12+14 = STR 8 + THW 3 + Greataxe 3 / Second attack dmg: 1D12+15 = STR 8 + THW (backswing) 4 + Greataxe 3
The first question is... Am I getting the overhand chop and backswing bonuses right? They are pretty straightforward, but who knows, maybe I missed something. Now it gets more confusing (at least for me):
Single mythic power attack + mythic vital strike (overhand chop) [+3 greataxe](Furious Focus lets us ignore Power Attack penalty).
Attack: +22 = BAB 10 + STR 8 + W.F. 1 + Greataxe 3
Damage: 2d12+48 Dmg = STR 16 + THW (overhand chop) 8 + Greataxe 6 + PW 18
From what I understand Mythic Vital Strike multiplies Str bonus, Two-handed weapon damage bonus, magic enhancement bonus AND Power Attack bonus. Correct? It's just... Seems like some much damage and I just need someone to have a look. If you add rage and enlarge person it gets ridiculous. Is it really supposed to be like this? Thanks in advance!
Two handed fighters if they do a single attack get double their strength into damage instead of 1.5 damage. So its actually 16+3 for 19
With mythic power attack, and a bab of 10 that Plus 19 becomes a +32. Mythic Power attack says that you get -1 to attack rolls and +3 to damage, unless you two hand a weapon than your damage is increased to 1.5. at level 8 its -3/+9 but 1.5 of +9 is +13.
Its tough, I know but his damage only climbs from here.
So single attack Mythic Power Attack for him is +22 with a D12+32 damage. With mythic Vital Strike at his level, his ending damage for a non critical shoud be 2d12+64 damage. Assuming he has Furious Focus or spends the mythic point to not take minuses to his Attack Rolls
I think that I have an issue with those 1.5 bonuses and overhand chop/power attack combo. I thought that overhand chop lets you add a 50% of your STR bonus to the damage roll, not actually DOUBLE the STR bonus...
So, overhand chop doubles the strength bonus and then mythic vital strike doubles it again?
Sorry, I'm getting even more confused. Could you break it down for me again, please?
I though that vital strike doubles each type of bonus separately (like here is double for str, here is double for enhancement, here is double for Power Attack bonus, etc), but according to you I have to calculate Mythic Power Attack damage and then just double it with Mythic Vital Strike... And it's even more damage than I thought!
I must say I wasn't expecting such a dramatic entrance! Yes, it actually makes sense. Thank you! I've been flipping through the books to figure it out and it's so counterintuitive...
Still, if you are correct my formula for damage should look like this:
Single Mythic Power Attack + Vital Strike + Furious Focus damage: STR 24 (8 base*3 THW(overhand chop)&Vital Strike) + Greataxe 6 (3*2(VS)) + PW 18 (9*2(VS)) = 2d12+48
And yet baja1000 stated it should be +64... The thing is that before creating a topic I've tried to make a little research and it seems like there is a lot of confusion going on in regards to overhand chop/power atack/vital strike combo. Your explanation makes sense though. I would be obliged if you or someone else could point out where exactly in the rules it says about how the bonuses are multiplied or maybe there is some errata or developers clarification on how this feat combo works?
I've deleted my comment, I made a mistake when doing my calculations. Give me a little more time to look at all the math.
Everyone gets 1.5 damage if they two hand a One-handed or Two-handed weapon. Overhand chop says you add double your Strength into damage and it literally means double the bonus. And yes, they stack. Double from Overhand Chop and then Double for Mythic Vital Strike. This is all non, crit. If he Critical's with a Greataxe Mythic Vital Strike Attack and confirms he will essentially be dealing his Strength his strength modifier 7 times. Double x3 from Axe plus additional from MVS
Normal vital strike doubles only the dice. But Mythic doubles all the bonuses you normally add into your attack. If he was using a x2 crity weapon like a longsword, mythic vital strike would basically make his attack a critcal. Since he would deal double the damage and still be capable of actually crit-ing
And yes. Its nuts. I DM'd a Wrath of the Righteous game, and after looking it over multiple times to find an error, the end result came out to my player dishing out damage in the 100's. I've tried to nerf it and if someone can counter this, I MORE then welcome it. Otherwise, the damage this combo does is literally Godly
I could very well be wrong, but I've only seen tables run Overhand Chop/Backswing as increasingly 2h's STR mod from 1.5 to 2, rather than doubling 1.5 to 3 or adding 2 to 1.5 for 3.5
The way the combo works is, normally: two handing a weapon adds 1.5 damage of strength. You can add power attacks, vital strikes, critical hits and all that jazz all normally.
Overhand chop changes the 1.5 to 2x Str. Everything else still applies as normal. Power Attack adds damage (1.5 the damage listed on the feat if two handing a weapon) and Vital Strike doubles the dice rolled.
Mythic Power Attack changes the base damage bonus to 3 and two handing adds 1.5 of that amount.
Lv's 1-3: -1/+3 or two handing is -1/+4
Lv's 4-7: -2/+6 or two handing is -2/+9
this is by the specific wording of Mythic Power Attack
and Mythic Vital Strike lets you double not just the dice, but the bonuses you normally would add to this are doubled also if they would normally be with a Critical hit. (ie. Strength, Power Attack and base damage, but not precision or elemental)
All together its really dumb, AND if the player has a legendary weapon with Foe-biting. They can double the end result damage AGAIN. Welcome to my world >.>
swoosh wrote: I could very well be wrong, but I've only seen tables run Overhand Chop/Backswing as increasingly 2h's STR mod from 1.5 to 2, rather than doubling 1.5 to 3 or adding 2 to 1.5 for 3.5 This is true, thats all Overhand Chop does. But when you add mythic vital strike and mythic power attack things quickly get out of control.
Ok, the comment I made about doubling a double does not apply here, because you aren't doubling your strength bonus to damage originally, you're adding double you strength bonus, which is fundamentally different. baja1000 was correct, and I'll break it down.
Strength 26, using two-handed fighter archetype and mythic power attack at level 10 with a +3 weapon.
No feats used
2d6 (base weapon) +16 (double strength bonus) +3 (magic weapon) = 1d12+19
Mythic power attack will add 13 to that damage for a total of 1d12+32.
Mythic vital strike will basically double everything at that point, base damage dice and bonuses included.
2d12+64
So basically mythic vital strike just allows him to attack once and do damage twice. He doubles the base damage dice, and the doubles his bonuses.
Also I think you're forgetting that two-handed fighters have weapon training that at this level should give them +2 to hit and damage. Which means his base damage should be 2 higher which means his vital strike damage will be 4 higher.
I strongly encourage using Mythic Solutions. XD Mythic Vital Strike is kind of a problem as printed, and the game will probably go better if you use the suggested fix.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: Ok, the comment I made about doubling a double does not apply here, because you aren't doubling your strength bonus to damage originally, you're adding double you strength bonus, which is fundamentally different. baja1000 was correct, and I'll break it down.
Strength 26, using two-handed fighter archetype and mythic power attack at level 10 with a +3 weapon.
No feats used
2d6 (base weapon) +16 (double strength bonus) +3 (magic weapon) = 1d12+19
Mythic power attack will add 13 to that damage for a total of 1d12+32.
Mythic vital strike will basically double everything at that point, base damage dice and bonuses included.
2d12+64
So basically mythic vital strike just allows him to attack once and do damage twice. He doubles the base damage dice, and the doubles his bonuses.
Also I think you're forgetting that two-handed fighters have weapon training that at this level should give them +2 to hit and damage. Which means his base damage should be 2 higher which means his vital strike damage will be 4 higher
Yup. I forgot the weapon training thing... Thank you for breaking it down for me. I really appreciate it.
baja1000 wrote: The way the combo works is, normally: two handing a weapon adds 1.5 damage of strength. You can add power attacks, vital strikes, critical hits and all that jazz all normally.
Overhand chop changes the 1.5 to 2x Str. Everything else still applies as normal. Power Attack adds damage (1.5 the damage listed on the feat if two handing a weapon) and Vital Strike doubles the dice rolled.
Mythic Power Attack changes the base damage bonus to 3 and two handing adds 1.5 of that amount.
Lv's 1-3: -1/+3 or two handing is -1/+4
Lv's 4-7: -2/+6 or two handing is -2/+9
this is by the specific wording of Mythic Power Attack
and Mythic Vital Strike lets you double not just the dice, but the bonuses you normally would add to this are doubled also if they would normally be with a Critical hit. (ie. Strength, Power Attack and base damage, but not precision or elemental)
All together its really dumb, AND if the player has a legendary weapon with Foe-biting. They can double the end result damage AGAIN. Welcome to my world >.>
Thank you for elaborating. In the very beginning during character generation process I felt that Mythic Vital Strike might cause issues and I wanted to ban it, but the player persuaded me to let him take it anyway... Now the group steamrolls through pretty much every straightforward combat encounter with nearly no efforts. Only custom made monsters manage to pose a serious threat to them. I wouldn't say it breaks the game (it makes it different certainly), but I'm really tired of building monsters from ground up or even just modifying the existing ones. It takes so much more prep time and fiddling with numbers takes this precious time from working on the plot, npcs and all the nice things which define ROLEplaying game.
Now every time the player wishes to use Mythic Vital Strike he has to expend 2 power points. Maybe it's a bit harsh, but it's only fair. Vital Strike is like a special ultimate power now, which is not used in every fight (it is still overpowered though).
Anyways, thank you for helping me out with this. If you have anything to add (like how you fixed it or how would you deal with it if it comes up in your game), by all means please feel free to do it.
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Quote: Now every time the player wishes to use Mythic Vital Strike he has to expend 2 power points. Maybe it's a bit harsh, but it's only fair. Vital Strike is like a special ultimate power now, which is not used in every fight (it is still overpowered though). It's.. basically a slightly better pounce for 2-4 feats based on level. Brawlers get it for 2 and Barbarians get it for 3 and UMonks get it for free.
It's really not that scary.
There are ways to put him in his place. Flight. Invisibility. Displacement. Mirror image. These are non mythic ways to deal with him. It sucks cause it sorta takes him out of the game and makes him useless. But when you go the mythic vital strike route, you only have yourself to blame. Mythic ways to counter also are Block Attack and Mirror Dodge.
Best way to handle it I've found though. Dominate Person. Watch the party quick go from loving his build to hating it when their giant boom stick turns on them and begins melting the party. Also, keep in mind that if he's a barbarian and raging, he won't get a second save against dominate because "it is not against a raging barbarians nature to attack the nearest thing blindly"
All food for thought
GM Rednal wrote: I strongly encourage using Mythic Solutions. XD Mythic Vital Strike is kind of a problem as printed, and the game will probably go better if you use the suggested fix. Yes, it is an invaluable source for anyone who wants to run a high-level mythic campaign. However the offered solution is hardly a fix. I mean yeah if you multiply by the number of dice it gets horribly broken, but even you have fixed values instead (like multiply by 2 and so on and o forth) it still lets the character to dish out too much damage. Maybe it's just me and I'm bad at designing challenging encounters, but never before my party crushed everything standing at their path so easily.
Either one has to make every monster and encounter mythic (which is not as easy as it might sound) or look up monsters with CR much higher than the APL. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The lesson I've learned: before implementing any new sub-systems or hot new rules READ and RE-READ everything before actually going with it.
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