Do skill boosting feats help static DCs based on skill ranks?


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Proposed FAQ if this hasn't been answered before: For a skill check against a static skill bonus, like Conceal Spell, does the static skill bonus include class skill and feat bonuses to that skill?

Relevant excerpt from Conceal Spell from Ultimate Intrigue:

Quote:

Conceal Spell

You can hide the evidence of spells you cast.
Prerequisites: Deceitful, Bluff 1 rank, Disguise 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 1 rank.

Benefit: When you cast a spell or use a spell-like ability, you can attempt to conceal verbal and somatic components among other speech and gestures, and to conceal the manifestation of casting the spell, so others don’t realize you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability until it is too late. The attempt to hide the spell slows your casting slightly, such that spells that normally take a standard action to cast now take a full-round action, and spells that normally take longer than a standard action take twice as long. (Swift action spells still take a swift action.) To discover your ruse, a creature must succeed at a Perception, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft check (the creature receives an automatic check with whichever of those skills has the highest bonus) against a DC equal to 15 + your number of ranks in Bluff or Disguise (whichever is higher) + your Charisma modifier; the creature gains a bonus on its check equal to the level of the spell or spell- like ability you are concealing.

The Deceitful feat, a prereq for the above, provides:

Quote:
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Disguise skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.

Skill checks:

Quote:
When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check. If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check.

Unless this has been FAQ'd somewhere before, it seems clear to me that RAW your Deceitful boost and your class skill bonus would not apply to the static number perceivers have to hit to spot your Concealed Spell casting. They are the only ones making a skill check, not you, so you don't get anything but your base ranks.

That can't be intended, so if no one can point to me an existing FAQ, please hit the button.

(RAW you also wouldn't benefit from a trait that replaced Int as your stat for Bluff or Disguise here.)


Conceal spell specifically calls out your number of ranks in the skill as part of the DC, not your total modifier. After all, the trained in class skill modifier, ability score modifier, racial modifiers, etc. increase the total when all is said and done, but they aren't the ranks you have in a skill. I think the language is plain enough: ranks only, not all modifiers. You've got all the relevant text up there I believe. No FAQ necessary.


The FAQ is whether they thought it through and actually meant it to be that way. It seems questionable, especially if this is a novel new rules mechanic. I can't recall seeing this skill roll vs. a static mechanic anywhere else rather than a skill vs. skill opposed test. Am I wrong? It certainly can't be common, even if it's not unique?

Anyway, this part of what you said is inaccurate:

Quote:
After all, the trained in class skill modifier, ability score modifier, racial modifiers, etc. increase the total when all is said and done

Except for the ability score modifier (provided you haven't replaced Cha with something else via trait), they do NOT increase this total when all is said and done. I suspect that the writer of the feat intended that they should.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like if the intention was to include everything it'd say "your total bluff modifier" or something. Skill ranks + Cha seems like wording specifically designed to avoid including trait/feat/class skill bonuses and mechanics that change the ability score you use. I can't think of any other reason to write it like that.


Slithery D wrote:

The FAQ is whether they thought it through and actually meant it to be that way. It seems questionable, especially if this is a novel new rules mechanic. I can't recall seeing this skill roll vs. a static mechanic anywhere else rather than a skill vs. skill opposed test. Am I wrong? It certainly can't be common, even if it's not unique?

The rule you're questioning is unambiguous and not obviously in error. Not really an issue for the FAQ system.

Is it bad design? Probably yes. Is it novel? Well, prestige classes and feats have skill rank prerequisites, where people with a +3 modifier qualify but people with a +12 don't.


Put me down in the "unambiguous and clearly intended" crowd, no FAQ required.


I'm FAQing it. I agree it's completely unambiguous, but I also think this is something that could have been changed during editing from what the author originally wrote and intended. It really should go against your total modifier (how good you actually are), as opposed to skill ranks (limited by level and only used as a hurdle for entry into feats/prestige classes).

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