Need help to understand how Stealth works


Rules Questions


Hello All!

I've got a question based on in-game situation (please check following image link - http://imgur.com/saSh0Xe )

So, as you can see - we have 2 characters here - one female, one male.
It's female turn, she is being observed by male, she doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight ability, and she doesn't have any Blur or other concealment effects.

She wants to hide from male and then attack him from Stealth to get advantage. How can she do it?

Possible scenarios that come to my mind, but I'm not sure even in them, so I need your help.

Scenario 1 (marked with red)
She has to spend move action to go to location that can't be observed and then she can use Stealth.
1. Can she do it only with 1 move action, or she needs to spend 1 move to go to unobserved location and there she can spend second move action to actually start Stealth?
2. Does she requre to perform 'Create Diversion to Hide' in this scenario?

Scenario 2 (marked with blue)
She has to spend move action to go to location that has cover and need to use 'Create Diversion to Hide' to make it happen.
1. Create Diversion to Hide is standard action? Opposed by Sense Motive?
2. Is it at all possible to do this or she must go to location that should be totally unobserved (ordinary cover is not enough)?

Liberty's Edge

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In both scenario 1 & 2, if the character makes a successful bluff to distract and stealth at -10 to hide then the male does not see where she went (though, given the layout, it shouldn't be difficult to guess).

If she fails the bluff and/or stealth checks then the male knows where she is in scenario 2, but in scenario 1 he only knows that she went around the corner.

In all cases, that is a move action. If she wants to sneak back and attack, the character will thus likely need to wait until the next turn. Assuming the male stays where he is (rather than following her around the corner), she would then just need to make a successful stealth check to move back to his location. Even having failed to hide under scenario 2 above still allows stealth on the second turn because she begins behind cover.

Note that some of these movements might cover more than half her normal speed and thus incur a -5 penalty on the stealth check(s).

As a GM, I'd probably also give the male bonuses on perception checks given the obviousness of where the female went, but there is no automatic bonus in the rules for that.


Move action to both Stealth, move and Bluff? Correct?

Liberty's Edge

Mrakvampire wrote:
Move action to both Stealth, move and Bluff? Correct?

Ah, sorry forgot about that part. While the action for the bluff check isn't stated, that usually means it is a standard action. Also, there are some special abilities which allow a diversion to hide as a move action... implying that it is usually a longer action. Thus, in my experience most treat it as a standard action.


I'm confused.
So, in order to hide she has 2 options:

1. Spend standard action to Bluff and if she succeeds then she must take Stealth at -10.

2. Just move out of his sight as move action and with next move action she can make Stealth without any penalties.

Really strange, option 2 is superior in every aspect except that in option 2 he would know that she went behind that wall...


This is how I would run it:

Scenario 1

The stealthy character have two options. Either she spends a standard action to make a distraction and then a move action and, as part of that move, a Stealth check at -10 (and probably a -5 for moving more than half her movement. Though that can be avoided if she makes the more sensible choice of moving across a diagonal after moving south the first square).

Or she uses a move action to get behind the corner and thus gains total cover from her opponent. This allows her to convert her standard action to a move action and use it to roll stealth. Note that she does not actually have to move with this action.

Yes, the second alternative is superior in every way. So what? It's not always possible to gain total cover or concealment, if you can only gain 'normal' cover or concealment you'd have to use the bluff variant.

Also, I would not give the male any Perception bonuses or anything. It's enouch that he can make a very certain guess as to where the female went. If he makes a 20 ft. (4 square) move south he see part of the "1" square where the female is standing, thus changing her total cover to only 'normal' cover. This does not automatically mean he spots her, if the Stealth check was successful he would need to spend a standard action to intentionally search for her, granting him a second Perception check versus what I believe would be the same Stealth check DC as last time. However, if he moves 25 ft. south the female loses all cover and concealment and is thus automatically spotted.

Scenario 2

Yes, that would require a Bluff vs. Sense Motive as a standard action and then a move action and a Stealth check at -10. If both is successful she is 'in stealth'.

The male, however, assuming some sort of normal intelligence would still guess where she went. I do believe he still needs a 25 ft. move south to automatically spot the female, as a 20 ft. one would still give the female cover. This is the same as in scenario 1.

I would like to mention that having a pretty good, but still not exact idea of where someone is isn't enough to avoid being surprised by that person.

If the female in the next round of combat hasn't been spotted, she can break cover and advance towards the male. Provided she succeeds at a Stealth check, she gains the benefits of catching the male off guard. The male most likely knew that the female was hiding behind the corner, but since he couldn't know exactly when (and if) she would strike he was at a disadvantage.


Greetings fellow travellers.

Maybe these two blog posts might help:

1 and 2.

Ruyan.


RuyanVe wrote:

Greetings fellow travellers.

Maybe these two blog posts might help:

1 and 2.

Ruyan.

What happened to that play test? It was 5 years ago. Did they discover that the new rules weren't a huge improvement and dropped the idea? Was the rules them self good but never implemented for other reasons?

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