"Magic Items" not actually tied to items?


Homebrew and House Rules


To start off with: This is a theoretical question. I'm asking it to ask it, not because I'm looking for the best system to do something like this or even because I intend to use it. And I am aware of other systems for 3.e/Path that have done similar things. I just think it's an idea worth thinking about.
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What happens if you make magic item abilities functional without items that can be taken away or otherwise physically messed with?

I don't mean the Automatic Bonus, I mean exchanging a currency (very likely not gold and not something you can acquire extra of by any kind of "loot grinding") for magic item abilities that would then be inherent to the character and function even if they're deprived of their weapons/armor/stuff.

So, like, if your Fighter has the "+1" and "Frost" abilities and gets captured and thrown naked into the arena against a DR 15/magic and Vulnerable to Cold (yes, I am hyperbole-ing) creature they don't have to let the Sorcerer do all the fighting they can wail on it with their "+1 Frost" unarmed attacks. And they probably have a +1 magic armor bonus to keep their AC okay.

There are probably some Wondrous Items that make more sense as things separate from the characters. *shrug* Maybe those are just rare loot and aren't purchasable by this system.
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So what are the implications and horrible indignities this inflicts on the system?

* Makes Item Crafting Feats worthless.
* You don't have to have special rules about how non-humanoids interact with magic item bonuses.
* You'd have to change the name of Use Magic Device.
* You don't have to have special rules or items just so monks can enhance their non-item-using selves.
* Class abilities that grant automatic magic item-like bonuses become redundant (but still useful if you allow it to be extra stuff on top of what WBL grants).
* Sundering or otherwise destroying items is a lot less of a sore point.
* You can keep your family's ancestral sword from level 1.
* Money is not tied into the game's power scale.
* Monsters don't have to have monetary-value treasure.
* You can spend your money on crazy plans that have no mechanical significance.
* You have characters who vow poverty without special rules.

What others are there?


Can I ask why you wonder?

How do you mean that one would acquire these magical abilties? Extra level-up customization?

*The biggest thing you're missing is that action economy would change, a lot (don't have to draw or hold wands/potions/rods).
*No worthwhile loot.
*Nothing worth spending coin on for a killer hobo, making coin worthless to killer hobos.


Two questions:
1) How do you handle consumables in this system?
2) How do you explain the flavor of this system? In the above example, if a Core Fighter (or anyone in particular) has a +1 Frost generic enhancement, does it represent that every being in this setting is innately magical?


Rub-Eta wrote:
Can I ask why you wonder?

Not sure I understand the question. "Why do you wonder?", is that it?

Rub-Eta wrote:
How do you mean that one would acquire these magical abilties? Extra level-up customization?

Yes.

Rub-Eta wrote:
*The biggest thing you're missing is that action economy would change, a lot (don't have to draw or hold wands/potions/rods).

Would be easy to say you have to spend an extra action to "ready" those abilities before looting.

voideternal wrote:
2) How do you explain the flavor of this system? In the above example, if a Core Fighter (or anyone in particular) has a +1 Frost generic enhancement, does it represent that every being in this setting is innately magical?

Does the system have to have an inherent flavor? Couldn't that be left for individual GMs/settings?

voideternal wrote:
1) How do you handle consumables in this system?

Hm, yeah, that is something my theoretical system doesn't account for. I'm not much of a "resource management" person, so that didn't occur to me.


Automatic Bonus progression does most of what you're referring to without any problems.

You still have some magical items, but all the "big six items" are rolled into character advancement.

Crafting with ABP isn't worthless, but it's not as strong as it was without it. Wizards can't craft their headbands of int or other items that they're normally after, and their WBL is still cut in half to give them armor and weapon bonuses that they otherwise wouldn't buy.
Monks don't need special magic items nor do they get locked out of other magic items to be combat effective. ABP allows them to enhance their unarmed strikes without resorting to the Amulet of Mighty Fists which normally locked them out of the Amulet of Natural armor. Now the monk gets both rolled into character progression.

Sundering gear isn't a big deal, since people usually sundered weapons and armor, which are no longer magical with ABP.

Weapons/armor of heritage are viable since they don't need to be masterwork to be attuned to.

Money is less tied to the characters power level. There are still plenty of powerful items, but without the big to purchase and instead being part of your character you could survive without any magical loot at all.

Basically Automatic Bonus Progression already does almost all of this for you.


Except ABL only grants numbers, not special abilities.


Claxon wrote:
ABP allows them to enhance their unarmed strikes without resorting to the Amulet of Mighty Fists which normally locked them out of the Amulet of Natural armor. Now the monk gets both rolled into character progression.

Hey, don't forget that even without ABP, it's core-legal to craft an Amulet that does both. XD Why do so many people forget that?


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You can accomplish this already. You just double the cost of the item to make it slotless.


GM Rednal wrote:
Claxon wrote:
ABP allows them to enhance their unarmed strikes without resorting to the Amulet of Mighty Fists which normally locked them out of the Amulet of Natural armor. Now the monk gets both rolled into character progression.
Hey, don't forget that even without ABP, it's core-legal to craft an Amulet that does both. XD Why do so many people forget that?

Because that's crafting a custom item, which isn't legal without the permission of your GM and costs more than the two items separately.

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Except ABL only grants numbers, not special abilities.

You can purchase special abilities, but it reduces the enhancement number by the equivalent of the special ability.

Thankfully the special ability is cheaper because you don't need a +1 enhancement on the weapon. Thus a bane weapon would only cost 2000gp (on top of the regular weapon cost).

Quote:

Magic Weapons and Armor

In this system, magic weapons, armor, and shields never have enhancement bonuses of their own; those bonuses are granted only through attunement. Any weapon, armor, or shield special abilities on attuned items count against a character's enhancement bonus from attunement. To determine an attuned magic item's enhancement bonus, subtract the cost of its special ability from the enhancement bonus granted by attunement. (This applies only to special abilities whose cost is equivalent to an enhancement bonus, not to those that cost a flat amount of gold pieces.) For example, if a character with a +3 enhancement bonus from weapon attunement wields a keen scimitar, she subtracts 1 point of her enhancement bonus (for the cost of keen), leaving her with a +2 keen scimitar. If a character doesn't have enough of an enhancement bonus to afford the special ability (such as a 4th-level character with a vorpal longsword), she can still use the weapon's power on its own, but the weapon gains no enhancement bonus.

In this system, adding bonus-equivalent special abilities to items costs significantly less because you are paying only for the special ability, not for a base enhancement bonus (see the table below). To determine the price of specific weapons and armor, remove the flat enhancement bonus and reduce the item's cost by the amount listed on the table below. For example, a flame tongue is normally worth 20,715 gp, but under this system, it would lose its +1 enhancement bonus and its price would be reduced to 18,715 gp. Specific weapons and armor can be attuned; they then grant the character's enhancement bonuses from weapon attunement and armor attunement as normal.


Claxon wrote:
You can purchase special abilities, but it reduces the enhancement number by the equivalent of the special ability.

I missed that part.

That sounds okay, then. Though completely taking away the money still sounds like a worthy goal.

EDIT: Though what do they mean by "attune"? Is important to the mechanics to have an item to use?


Quote:

Weapon Attunement

The character can attune herself to any one weapon in her possession, and can change that attunement once per day. The attuned weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus at 4th level. At 8th level, the character can split her attunement between two weapons, granting each a +1 enhancement bonus. At 9th level, she can grant a single weapon a +2 enhancement bonus instead of granting two weapons a +1 enhancement bonus each. At 14th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +3 enhancement bonus or grant two weapons a +2 enhancement bonus each. At 15th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +4 enhancement bonus or grant two weapons a +3 enhancement bonus each. At 17th level, she can either grant a single weapon a +5 enhancement bonus or grant one weapon a +4 enhancement bonus and another weapon a +3 enhancement bonus.

You don't have to have an item, in the sense that you can attune an unarmed strike or natural attack, if that's what you were wondering. Both natural attacks and unarmed strikes are "weapons in your possession".

You may want to read the complete rules for Automatic Bonus Progression.


Claxon wrote:

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Because that's crafting a custom item, which isn't legal without the permission of your GM ...
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Funnily enough, that isn't technically the case.

rules quotes(spoilered for length):

Magic Item Gold Piece Values wrote:

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic
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For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
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Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

Those are the relevant parts of the section detailing how to price a new magic item.

Now look at the totally independent section on adding abilities to items.

Adding New Abilities wrote:

Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.

The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

The GM has exactly as much say over a player adding a natural armor ability to an amulet of mighty fists as they do over a player adding adding +1 Bane to their +1 Greataxe - the same rules section governs both and doesn't bring GM judgement into it at all.

Technically, nothing is legal without the permission of your GM. XD In this case - as Snowblind kindly quoted for us - adding additional effects to be crafted onto an existing item is part of the core rules for making magic items. A GM can say no, of course, but it's a legal option by default - banning it is the houserule, not allowing it.

If a monk wants both of those useful effects, this would seem a very sensible way to go... although I admit that it's probably a common enough desire that they should just put it into a book at some point. XD


I run a game where there are no permanent magic items (although there are consumables). Instead, PC classes get "Chakra Points" roughly equal to wealth by level that they can use to power their Chakras (item slots), with no more than half in any one slot. Weapon bonuses apply to all weapons (including unarmed), but if using a non-masterwork weapon or armor the bonus only counts for half (minimum +1). The only item crafting feats are scribe scroll, brew potion and craft wand. Players can also disrupt their chakra and after 24 hours can re-spend the points on different "items". Many abilities are available without difficulty, but players may have to learn from other NPCs how to empower their chakra with the more unusual "items".

Game effects: Gold is far less important, so you need to carefully look at things that assume players have a lot more gold, like learning new spells for wizards. Sundering becomes more valuable, as you aren't destroying the magic gear you need any more. NPC classed enemies (warrior, expert, commoner) are far less dangerous. (In my game there is definitely a caste system between peasants - those who cannot charge their chakra and must take NPC classes - and nobles - those who can and take PC classes.) There is a reduction in martial/caster disparity since martials can use some of their points to do magical effects. The players do need to have more of a motivation beyond kill monster/take loot, though. You will also need to write your own adventures, or be willing to heavily adapt existing ones. Also, if PCs have time, they can alter their abilities to always have what they need to succeed, so be sure to include time crunches.


I do something like that too.
(Open Chapter 6, then scroll down to "Magic Items and Wealth.")

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