Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
The bard is a great, well-designed class. The only feature that I don't like about it is versatile performance. All it does is allowing players to optimize skill point allocation in a very complicated and counter-intuitive way (probably as an incentive to encourage players to invest in more than one Performance skill).
Versatile performance grants access to 8 different skills (you can have them all by level 14 if you take the right combination of performances):
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Fly, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Sense Motive
As a party face, the typical bard will want at least some of these skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive) with certainty, some not so much (Fly, Handle Animal), the others fall in between (Acrobatics, Disguise, Intimidate).
At 2nd level, the bard gains two skills that he very likely will want to take, at the cost of one Perform skill that he is probably going to take anyway (oratory and sing are strong candidates). Even if he already took those two skills at 1st level, he won't have to skill them further in the future, which basically grants him 2 additional skill points per level. However, from there on, versatile performance offers only diminishing returns. Unless the adventure centers around some weird talent contests, investing heavily in additional Perform skills doesn't make a lot of sense. And the selection of useful skills the bard can take becomes smaller. At 6th level, he'll likely have covered most useful skills with his normal skill points. He's probably better off spending his skill points on skills of his choice that he'll actually use (and wait for that extra skill point he gains from his magic headband to sink into bardic performance). And it gets worse at higher levels. The versatile performances gained at 14th and 18th level likely won't matter at all because it becomes too expensive to retroactively skill Perform in order to get a skill you don't actually need/already have.
In addition to free skill points, versatile Performance has an additional benefit: it effectively allows the bard to turn three non Cha-based skills into Cha-based skills (Acrobatics, Fly, Sense Motive), resulting in a higher total skill bonus (one gets the most out of it with a circlet of persuasion). However, out of these three, Sense Motive is the only one that really stands out.
Basically, one could replace versatile performance with 2 additional skill points per level and a few skill foci at certain levels. However, that's not very interesting as far as class features go. Archetypical replacements for versatile performance include
- bonus feats
- expanded spell list
- a familiar
- bonuses on selected skills/being able to take 10 on selected skill
- bonuses to spell save DC for selected spells,
- bonuses to CMD
Many of these are more interesting than versatile performance.
I would prefer if versatile performance were more similar to arcane school or bloodline--a scaling feature that allows players to customize their character. Each performance school could grant different benefits. Percussion could have an emphasis on sonic effects, oratory would focus on language-dependent effects, dance on mobility and movement, etc. It wouldn't have to be more powerful than versatile performance, but it should be more exciting.
What do you think? How would you imagine such a replacement feature?
Wiggz |
The best idea I've heard when it came to reworking Versatile Performance takes it out of the skills arena altogether and allows it to enhance combat instead. In addition to the normal effect of whatever performance you were using, each type of instrument (oral, strings, percussion, etc.) came with it a particular combat bonus or effect, meaning that the Bard would have to vary his actual type of performance to vary the mechanical benefit of it. You would gain one of these options each time you would have normally gained an additional versatile performance (i.e. 2nd, 6th, 10th, etc.). I'll see if I can find it.
Rub-Eta |
It's worth noting that some archetypes don't trade individual abilties for equally strong abilities but break-even in total. It's also worth noting that some archetypes don't.
My biggest qualm about Versatile Performance is that it doesn't let you relocate the skill ranks you probably already have invested in those other skills long before level 6, 10, 14 (and 18).
While it does seem like you halve the amount of skill ranks you need to invest to max out, it becomes a trap after certain levels. It's cheaper to keep maxing out the regular skills than to start investing in new Perform skills after a while.
The 2nd level Versatile Performance will save you 18 skill ranks in total (getting both Bluff and Intimidate from 1 rank to 20 would consume 38 ranks, getting Perform (Comedy) to 20 will only cost 20 ranks).
At 6th level, Versatile Performance will save you 10 ranks (30 to max the two regular skills from 5, 20 to max a new perform skill). At 10th level it's 2 ranks saved. At 14th and 18th level it takes 6 to 14 ranks extra, respectively.
So what about retraining? You can retrain skill ranks! Well:
It takes 5 days to retrain a number of skill ranks equal to your INT modifier (or a minimum of 1) which means that it's likely 10*(current level) number of days to retraining skill ranks to gain the full benefit of Versatile Performance (to not have any wasted skill ranks in skills that you replace with a Performance).
60 days to remove all my ranks in both Bluff and Intimidate so that I can invest in Perform (Comedy) and another skill when I gain my second Versatile Performance at level 6. Splitting the retraining up between Bluff and Intimidate equally means that I'll never really hit rock-bottom with any one of the skills and that I'm back on-top after 30 days of retraining while the remaining 30 is to gain ranks in a new skill.
But that's 60 days. And the first 30 I'll actually be worse off than before I started retraining. It doesn't even help to buff Int a bit, since you'll need 14 before it gives any results. And while that would halve the amount of time needed to retrain, 30 days is still a lot and 14 Int is hard to afford.
Now to the question at hand: I'd honestly be fine with it if it just allowed you to relocate the ranks for free.
Though it would be cool if there where bigger differences between the choices as well and not only a connection to a few set of skills.
EDITED
Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
The best idea I've heard when it came to reworking Versatile Performance takes it out of the skills arena altogether and allows it to enhance combat instead. In addition to the normal effect of whatever performance you were using, each type of instrument (oral, strings, percussion, etc.) came with it a particular combat bonus or effect, meaning that the Bard would have to vary his actual type of performance to vary the mechanical benefit of it. You would gain one of these options each time you would have normally gained an additional versatile performance (i.e. 2nd, 6th, 10th, etc.). I'll see if I can find it.
That would be one possibilty, though it would push the bard more in a combat role (essentially, you'd be sinking useful skill points into useless Perform skills to gain a combat bonus). To make the feature more broad, it would be important to have at least some performances that don't have combat effects.
I'm also not totally convinced that it is really necessary to encourage the bard to put a decent amount of his skill points into Perform skills. Countersong and distraction are the only bardic performances that actually require the bard to invest into Perform skills. Beyond that, it's mostly about adding flavor to the character (with a minimal investment of 1 skill point, a mid-level bard can reliably achieve a DC 20 check result, which represents a "great performance". I'd say that's enough not to embarass yourself at the duke's ball).I'd honestly be fine with it if it just allowed you to relocate the ranks for free.
That sounds fair. Though to make it functional at higher levels, it would have to allow the player to directly transfer the bard's ranks in a non-Perform skill into an associated Perform skill.
One odd detail that I forgot: Handle Animal is a trained only skill (at least to train a wild animal), so you still have to put one rank into Handle Animal, even if you use your Perform skill instead.
Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
Having given this more thought, I think unchaining the bard would have to go a step further. I'm inclined to introduce 'artistic fields' tied to individual perform skills as a way to customize the class. In addition to versatile performance, I'd also like to replace some of the bardic performances to create additional design space for new performances. Inspire courage and inspire competence would still be essential performances for every bard, but most of the others would be privy to one of the artistic fields (for example, dirge of doom would belong to percussion and/or string instruments).
What do you think? Which themes would fit the nine Perform skills presented in the CRB best?
- Act (comedy, drama, pantomime)
- Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
- Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
- Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
- Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
- Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
- String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
- Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, trumpet)
- Sing (ballad, chant, melody)
QuidEst |
Good news- Blood of Beasts introduced Advanced Versatile Performances. Instead of a later level additional expansion, you can add an additional skill to your previous Versatile Performance (so now you can pick a fitting performance type), get a weapon proficiency from a weapon group based on the performance type (and open access to Weapon Specialization), or get a masterpiece that uses a versatile performance you have.
rainzax |
The Bard is a damn good class, and because of the whole working well, the parts aren't given the same level of scrutiny that might happen with a class that wasn't as rock solid.
I think the Performance skill interacting with "magic" is a heavily under-explored nest of potential.
I am reminded of this recent Bard thread that has a good start and abruptly stopped.
Ventnor |
Good news- Blood of Beasts introduced Advanced Versatile Performances. Instead of a later level additional expansion, you can add an additional skill to your previous Versatile Performance (so now you can pick a fitting performance type), get a weapon proficiency from a weapon group based on the performance type (and open access to Weapon Specialization), or get a masterpiece that uses a versatile performance you have.
They're also not race-restricted or anything!
rainzax |
- Act (comedy, drama, pantomime)
- Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
- Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
- Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
- Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
- Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
- String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
- Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, trumpet)
- Sing (ballad, chant, melody)
I'll bite - perhaps mapping onto magic schools/subschools to start.
Act - Illusion
Comedy - Enchantment (Compulsion)
Dance - Conjuration (Teleportation)
Keyboard - Necromancy
Oratory - Abjuration
Percussion - Conjuration (Summoning)
String - Divination
Wind - Evocation
Sing - Enchantment (Charm)
Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
Good news- Blood of Beasts introduced Advanced Versatile Performances. Instead of a later level additional expansion, you can add an additional skill to your previous Versatile Performance (so now you can pick a fitting performance type), get a weapon proficiency from a weapon group based on the performance type (and open access to Weapon Specialization), or get a masterpiece that uses a versatile performance you have.
That seems to go in a similar direction (though I find it strange that a stealth upgrade for the bard class is published in a book on anthropomorphic animal races). Also, that seems to be a straight boost for the class, not that I would consider it a bad thing.
I think introducing new performances or bardic masterpieces is certainly the most interesting and satisfying way to go (I have plans for a more Craft-skill-related artisan-bard, who could make use of the same template).
Another thing to consider: Should the individual Perform skills still matter (staying true to the bard's original design, which encourages the player to invest in multiple Perform skills) and to which degree?
QuidEst |
Well, it was in the kitsune section, and they have a lot of synergy with the class. What book should a stealth upgrade to Bard go in? It's a flexibility upgrade rather than a power upgrade. Versatile Performance is worth one skill point per level per advancement, which is about a feat. It's a royal pain to actually build a Bard that way for all but the first one or two performances, though, so they're offering other options of equal power, but ones that don't require building around to take advantage of.
Masterpieces specify which performance types they work with, so that's one way to include differences.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
(though I find it strange that a stealth upgrade for the bard class is published in a book on anthropomorphic animal races).
It *is* kind of odd until you consider who wrote the kitsune section. ;-)
I was given more creative freedom than average for the section, so I pitched AVPs as a concept to my developer and he thought it was cool. Many magical months later and advanced performances became a thing!
Also, that seems to be a straight boost for the class, not that I would consider it a bad thing.
All AVPs are balanced to be worse than using 1 Perform skill for two associated skills. The bard class has this problem where versatile performance can be gamed so you can cover different skills with each new iteration of versatile performance, but only if you pick four very specific VPs, which means that to be optimal, you have to all be the same. Advanced versatile performances were designed to add some variety to the bard without adding large amounts of power to the class.