Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
Is it really desirable to play a class which needs a weird combination of several archetypes to be powerful?
Unchained monk is an upgrade when it comes to simplicity and therefore accessibility.
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The Umonk gets more attacks that will actually hit. Plus.
The loss of will was a pointless nerf, I'll agree. Lose.
Archetype lose sucks too. Lose.
Full BAB + the new flurry has better to hit numbers and means they can take things with BAB prerequisites much quicker than the base monk. Plus
Style strikes: Plus
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
Proficiency in all monk weapons. Plus.
So overall more pro's than con's.
There are two big changes that could not be handled via an archetype. First, upgrading his hit die, and consequently his BAB progression just seems to be too big of a change for an archetype. There is also the fact that there are less fixed class features and more pick from a menu class features. If think it is a down grade, fine, but I think that there were way to many core changes to make it an archetype. I would also like to point out that there are now archetypes that can be taken by the UnMonk.
You have the same number of attacks for most of the game too.
There are two big changes that could not be handled via an archetype. First, upgrading his hit die, and consequently his BAB progression just seems to be too big of a change for an archetype.
Ultimate Intrigue has a (bad) Cleric archetype that reduces its HD and BAB.
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INB4 SECRET WIZARD!
You're missing the unchained Flurry. +2 to hit over the core monk and 1.5 Str modifier. For the first few levels, nothing compares to the UMonk for beating face.
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The Umonk gets more attacks that will actually hit. Plus.
The loss of will was a pointless nerf, I'll agree. Lose.
Archetype lose sucks too. Lose.
Full BAB + the new flurry has batter to hit numbers and means they can take things with BAB prerequisites much quicker than the base monk. Plus
Style strikes: Plus
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
Proficiency in all monk weapons. Plus.So overall more pro's than con's.
Inclined to agree. However, even if the positives outweigh the negatives overall, the negatives are still really irksome.
I disagree with the flurry nerf. Having a higher to hit isn't that important when losing an attack per round.The Umonk gets more attacks that will actually hit. Plus.
The loss of will was a pointless nerf, I'll agree. Lose.
Archetype lose sucks too. Lose.
Full BAB + the new flurry has batter to hit numbers and means they can take things with BAB prerequisites much quicker than the base monk. Plus
Style strikes: Plus
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
Proficiency in all monk weapons. Plus.So overall more pro's than con's.
You don't lose an attack per round because there's a style strike to get it back. If you just look at that, you lose archetypes and good will progression for better to-hit, HD, and modularity. I think the more open weapon options also improve your damage.
You get fewer attacks.
You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).
You lose archetypes.
The BAB gain is worse than just having full flurry.The only real gain is style strikes. Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
BAB gain means power attack is way better on the unchained monk.
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You get fewer attacks.
At higher accuracy. At level 8 I would take +8/+8/+3 over +6/+6/+1/+1 every single time. Not to mention that the right style strike can make that +8/+8/+8/+3.
You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).
The poor will save progression is problematic, but as a Umonk you gain more benefit from having a higher wisdom, and you can more freely spend a feat or a trait on increasing the will save. In practice, the unmonk and the core monk have equivalent saves until the highest levels, but at that point the unmonk rolls twice on all will saves.
You lose archetypes.
This one hurts, but in home games it's easy to houserule a fix, and in PFS, there are 4 archetypes and counting. Every new monk archetype post unchained is available for both core and unchained monks.
The BAB gain is worse than just having full flurry.
It is not. You have full BAB all the time, not just on full attacks. You are free to make AoOs, or move and attack without being penalized for it. When you make full attacks, you are not penalized for simply having to make multiple attacks.
The only real gain is style strikes. Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
Agree to disagree. The unmonk has a slightly lower ceiling than a core monk with archetypes and a whole crapton of system mastery. But it has a much higher floor and doesn't require that system mastery to not suck.
As I think about it, I like the UnMonk Better because there are more good, or at least decent, options. I am very much against anything that pushes a "one true build" mentality.
I disagree with the flurry nerf. Having a higher to hit isn't that important when losing an attack per round.The Umonk gets more attacks that will actually hit. Plus.
The loss of will was a pointless nerf, I'll agree. Lose.
Archetype lose sucks too. Lose.
Full BAB + the new flurry has batter to hit numbers and means they can take things with BAB prerequisites much quicker than the base monk. Plus
Style strikes: Plus
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
Proficiency in all monk weapons. Plus.So overall more pro's than con's.
And I completely disagree with you that it's a nerf. Have you really looked at the new flurry? If to hit isn't important to you, take power attack and trade it for +3's to damage along with 1.5 strength damage... You'll be dealing a substantially greater amount of damage.
I think its about the same in all fairness
Not while flurrying which is pretty much what you always do with pummeling style.BAB gain means power attack is way better on the unchained monk.You get fewer attacks.
You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).
You lose archetypes.
The BAB gain is worse than just having full flurry.The only real gain is style strikes. Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
Yeah but Flying Kick is sooo much better than Pummeling Style.
@Undone, I am concerned that this argument is based around one specific build. If such is the case, you may be right, but I feel that you are missing the main purpose of the UnMonk. The UnMonk offers more viable ways to build your character. While the Core Monk tended to push people in a few toward a few st builds.
3 levels earlier but with a tiny range is not SOOOOOOOO much better.Yeah but Flying Kick is sooo much better than Pummeling Style.Not while flurrying which is pretty much what you always do with pummeling style.BAB gain means power attack is way better on the unchained monk.You get fewer attacks.
You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).
You lose archetypes.
The BAB gain is worse than just having full flurry.The only real gain is style strikes. Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
Scaling range?
What kind of Monk are you talking about? If your point is the Master of Many Styles, they are better martial combatant than the MoMS pretty much forever.
Picking and choosing archetypes when we respond is a bit disingenuous.
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At higher accuracy. At level 8 I would take +8/+8/+3 over +6/+6/+1/+1 every single time. Not to mention that the right style strike can make that +8/+8/+8/+3.You wouldn't rapid shot?
If I had the choice between Rapid Shot to add a single attack at +2 and an ability that can add up to three attacks at no penalty, I'd choose the later every time. All the old flurry does is lock you into the TWF chain. TWF can be effective, but the new flurry is better, as all of your bonus attacks are at full BAB, instead of mirroring ITWF and GTWF which will usually miss anyway.
@Undone, I am concerned that this argument is based around one specific build. If such is the case, you may be right, but I feel that you are missing the main purpose of the UnMonk. The UnMonk offers more viable ways to build your character. While the Core Monk tended to push people in a few toward a few st builds.ZAM, Quiggong, Hungry Ghost, Sohei, Flowing Monk, Kata Master, and monk of the iron mountain are all upgrades from the UMonk. Heck the UMonk and the BMonk both get quiggong as a basic upgrade for existing. Sure there are trap options but having a high system mastery floor and low system mastery ceiling is not exactly something I'd call good design or even a good class especially if you have a high level of system mastery.
Alright, in which case I would say do not play an UnMonk. If your GM is forcing you, then that is a GM problem.
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@Undone, I am concerned that this argument is based around one specific build. If such is the case, you may be right, but I feel that you are missing the main purpose of the UnMonk. The UnMonk offers more viable ways to build your character. While the Core Monk tended to push people in a few toward a few st builds.ZAM, Quiggong, Hungry Ghost, Sohei, Flowing Monk, Kata Master, and monk of the iron mountain are all upgrades from the UMonk. Heck the UMonk and the BMonk both get quiggong as a basic upgrade for existing. Sure there are trap options but having a high system mastery floor and low system mastery ceiling is not exactly something I'd call good design or even a good class especially if you have a high level of system mastery.
The ceiling of a unmonk and the ceiling of a core monk is close enough to be negligible. Core monk is slightly higher due to a few specific archetypes. But those archetypes still suck through low levels of play, taking several levels to mature. A umonk has a much higher floor and is effective from 1-20.
You get fewer attacks.
You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).
You lose archetypes.
The BAB gain is worse than just having full flurry.The only real gain is style strikes. Everything else Could more or less be gotten with an archetype.
You get fewer attacks, but you'll have more hits (probably). Every extra flurry attack is at full BAB instead of functioning like iterative attacks. Since you have a higher chance to hit you will do more damage as a Unchained Monk than a core monk, even if you have fewer attacks.
The loss of will saves...yeah it's a downgrade but doesn't really break the class despite being unnecessary. Many other classes have had to deal with bad will saves.
The loss of archetypes....aside from the Sohei or the Zen Archer there isn't much loss here. But those change the class from the feel of ascetic kung fu monk to something else. As time goes on my archetypes are being made that are compatible with UMonk, so I think this just needs time.
BAB gain with the new flurry is hands down better than having the original monk flurry. Trust me on that, or you can go do the math.
Also, flying kick is great. It basically grants you the ability to full attack every round. No need for pounce or pummeling style or anything else.
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So every single class without the good Will save is ineffective at higher levels?
You've lost me there, as that doesn't make any sense.
Also, "cohort". Meaning NPC stats, NPC wealth, etc. Not really a fair comparison.
Edit: what kind of game are you playing where you hit on a 2 in every combat, even with the buffs, and that lets you keep up those buffs during every single battle?
Regardless, Umonk can get better damage with flurry, as they can pick up a two-hander, and get 1.5x Strength and Power Attack. Core may hit more often, but Umonk can hit harder.
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
This is, honestly, a BIG con to me.
Weapons were already infinitely better than unarmed strikes. This just widens that gap even further without giving a true Unarmed user any real bonuses. Style Strikes are just as usable by the weapon user, particularly ones like Flying Kick.
So every single class without the good Will save is ineffective at higher levels?
You've lost me there, as that doesn't make any sense.
Yes, every class without something like superstitious or good base will saves tends to be bad at higher levels.
I'm not sure how it makes no sense if you get dominated you're ineffective (or too effective), if you get feared you're ineffective, if you go insane you're ineffective, the list goes on but if you get CC'ed you're ineffective.
But you have higher Wisdom than most classes because you get a direct benefit, and you have Greater Heroism (+4 on saves, immunity to fear) and a high enough level Paldin that he's handing out smites (read:11th) that has plenty of condition removal.
Also, there's a Ki power you can choose (at 6th level) to be able to spend 1 Ki point to get a Remove Fear on yourself, or 2 points if you're already frightened or panicked.You can't use those buffs to say the Core monk is better in combat, but then deny the Umonk those buffs to saves.
It's easily possible that either type of monk will have at least an adequate Will save, as Umonk has the feat slot for Iron Will, and I believe still gets bonuses against enchantment effects.
It's possible that the Umonk could have an even higher Will save than Core monk, but I haven't done the exact math.
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
This is, honestly, a BIG con to me.
Weapons were already infinitely better than unarmed strikes. This just widens that gap even further without giving a true Unarmed user any real bonuses. Style Strikes are just as usable by the weapon user, particularly ones like Flying Kick.
Well, you need to use Ascetic Style to get weapons with Style Strikes but it's true there are very few reason to go unarmed. Pretty much Pummeling Style is it these days. It seems that the game, Umonk and the Ascetic Style, is moving unarmed into a secondary position.
I don't find this a CON though as we're talking about combat effectiveness and not fluff/playstyle.
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You lose will saves (A real deal breaker for me).The poor will save progression is problematic, but as a Umonk you gain more benefit from having a higher wisdom, and you can more freely spend a feat or a trait on increasing the will save. In practice, the unmonk and the core monk have equivalent saves until the highest levels, but at that point the unmonk rolls twice on all will saves.
This isn't really a fair comparison of the two. Usually the Unmonk will be able to have a higher wisdom by virtue of not having to have as high a Con score. But both have enough room in the build (usually) to shore up their weaknesses. So say you have two monks, Unmonk has wisdom 2 points higher, core monk has con 2 points higher. Unmonk takes Iron Will at first level and the Core Monk takes dodge. Unmonk will have a higher will save for the first level, and again at third level, but after that, with equal investment on both parts, the Unmonk will be behind on will saves from roughly level 8 to 19, where flawless mind will bring you back closer to parity. So there's an 11 level span where core monk is better at will saves. Core monk also has a fortitude 1 higher. The core monk will be 1 HP behind at all levels, and dodge bonus to AC isn't quite as good as monk bonus to AC, but for the most part core monk comes out ahead.
But, that's just one part of the differences. Personally I like to think of the Unmonk as an archetype that basically locks you out of most other archetypes. And when you consider that most archetypes give a little and get a little, Unmonk is still a pretty good class. Trading saves and ki powers/costs for d10 hit dice, style strikes and improved flurry would be pretty good as an archetype. Maybe not the best archetype, but pretty good.
As far as flurry goes, extra attacks are only as good as their chance to hit. Having an extra -5 iterative at the cost of -2 to every single attack in the flurry isn't much of a gain. If a UMonk has 75%/75%/(75%)/50% = 2.75 average hits with Haste at 8, an identical core Monk has 65%/65%/(65%)/40%/40% = 2.75 average hits as well.
I like thinking of it as a Brawler archetype. When you view it that way lots of the decisions make sense.
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As far as flurry goes, extra attacks are only as good as their chance to hit. Having an extra -5 iterative at the cost of -2 to every single attack in the flurry isn't much of a gain. If a UMonk has 75%/75%/(75%)/50% = 2.75 average hits with Haste at 8, an identical core Monk has 65%/65%/(65%)/40%/40% = 2.75 average hits as well.
Yes - the only core monk archetype whose damage is at all comparable to the Umonk is a Sohei - and that only starting at level 8-9 when they can afford Gloves of Dueling.
There are some other things which core monk archetypes can do that Umonk can't (I'm a big fan of Sensei & Drunken Master myself) but the new flurry is a straight-up upgrade.
Design Manager
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The ceiling of a unmonk and the ceiling of a core monk is close enough to be negligible. Core monk is slightly higher due to a few specific archetypes. But those archetypes still suck through low levels of play, taking several levels to mature. A umonk has a much higher floor and is effective from 1-20.
This is pretty much my take on it. The loss of archetypes can be a bummer, but at least the UnMonk is actually solid as presented, as opposed to the core Monk that is really only good as archetype fodder.
UnMonk has a higher floor than core Monk, is much more playable out of the box, and is generally a stronger combatant. The hit to Will is a bit irksome, but you're still generally going to have saves equivalent to or better than a Ranger, definitely better if you prioritize WIS over DEX, which is very doable. The UnMonk also has much better synergy within its class features, and fulfills the "mobile combatant" role that the core Monk promises but fails to deliver on, with Flying Kick really giving them some incredible combat mobility, and providing more flexibility than the Pummeling feats since the UnMonk can "bounce" from a defeated opponent to another with no wasted attacks. The opportunity cost for Flying Kick is also much lower.
I'd say Zen Archer is arguably the only core Monk archetype that truly challenges the UnMonk in raw combat potential (Sohei archery takes a long time to come online and often struggles against high AC opponents since it has to stack multiple penalties to match the damage output of the more accurate Zen Archer, and mounted combat on a class that doesn't get a companion mount is rife with issues), so the main thing you're losing from the lack of archetypes is concept diversity.
I actually allow both monk classes at the table simultaneously; core Monk for Sensei, Zen Archer, or whatever build someone chooses to hang on it, and UnMonk as an easy access option for players who don't have the time or inclination for digging through multiple books to build a functional character, or who appreciate the more directly combat oriented chassis.
Couldn't a standard monk still get BAB bonus feats? He just wouldn't be able to use them unless he was higher level (with the BAB to support them), or was flurrying (which ups his BAB, allowing him to qualify and use the feats temporarily).
1.5 damage on two handed weapons in flurry. Plus
This is, honestly, a BIG con to me.
Weapons were already infinitely better than unarmed strikes. This just widens that gap even further without giving a true Unarmed user any real bonuses. Style Strikes are just as usable by the weapon user, particularly ones like Flying Kick.
Well, you need to use Ascetic Style to get weapons with Style Strikes but it's true there are very few reason to go unarmed. Pretty much Pummeling Style is it these days. It seems that the game, Umonk and the Ascetic Style, is moving unarmed into a secondary position.
I don't find this a CON though as we're talking about combat effectiveness and not fluff/playstyle.
Nah, you can still use Style Strikes, they just won't be at your best attack bonus.
It basically drops you an attack by a turn, but considering the main benefits are largely not damage related fro the good ones, there's little downside. Pounce is Pounce even if it eats an attack. As is immobilizing an enemy, or staggering them, or whatever.
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Couldn't a standard monk still get BAB bonus feats? He just wouldn't be able to use them unless he was higher level (with the BAB to support them), or was flurrying (which ups his BAB, allowing him to qualify and use the feats temporarily).
No
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
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Design Manager
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Couldn't a standard monk still get BAB bonus feats? He just wouldn't be able to use them unless he was higher level (with the BAB to support them), or was flurrying (which ups his BAB, allowing him to qualify and use the feats temporarily).Flurry doesn't increase your BAB.
Yup, it's right in the Flurry entry:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus."Now, the monk still gets the effective BAB increase for determining what benefit he gets from feats like Power Attack per the FAQ on flurry, but since his pseudo-BAB increase doesn't count for qualification purposes, the UnMonk is going to be able to qualify for certain feats faster than the core Monk, and there are some feats, like Blinding Critical, which an UnMonk will be able to qualify for that a core Monk never will.