A different take on Barzallai Thrune (SUPER spoilers, GMs only)


Hell's Rebels

Scarab Sages

So I am running a group through Hell's Rebels, and we've just hit the end of book 2 (as anyone who reads my ongoing updates will see) and something has always struck me as . . . off about Thrune.

Namely, the fact that he is an inquisitor of Asmodious.

As far as I know, the big A seems like a callous and malicious deity, and I never figured he'd give Barzalai any power, especially since it's revealed in the books that he doesn't give a flying eff about Asmodious, just power. In fact, he basically only pays lip service to the guy, and goes behind his god's back to strike a deal with a mephostopholies. I just don't see him continuing to get divine spells from a god he barely believes in and is circumventing.\

If you ask me, what makes more sense is to make Thrune an Occultist. His willingness to delve into ancient texts, his very intelligent (but not very wise) plan, his playing around with spiritual forces . . . he seems more at home using magical rule exploits than the whole inquisitor thing.

That being said, I was thinking of statting him out as an occultist. Would anyone like to see that?

Silver Crusade

I don't think it's the worst idea ever, but I think it would raise some questions as to why Barzillai is so tight with the church of Asmodeus. And the fact that he does work with the Asmodeans is pretty plot-central.

Also, the article on Mephistopheles does say that the church of Mephistopheles is pretty much entirely inside the church of Asmodeus. So it's not really a going behind Asmodeus's back kind of thing.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Counterpoint: would the Lord of Hell deny Barzalai divine power for his schemes? Or does a lust for power and a willingness to exploit whatever loopholes and fiendish aid can be acquired fall precisely within Asmodeus' wheelhouse? Mephistopheles is a powerful archfiend, but still second fiddle to Asmodeus. Remember, Hell has a very strict hierarchy and chain of command. You can run your game how you want, of course, but it feels to me like Barzalai is doing exactly what the Price of Darkness wants, whether he thinks he is or not. And maybe the granting of spells and divine power is not so personally involved; Asmodeus may not have quite the level of personal involvement in mortal affairs to pay so much attention to Thrune directly.

That said! This is still an interesting take on the matter. Occultist makes a lot of sense for the reasons you've outlined, as well as their skill with binding circles and such. If you think it's an interesting and worthwhile endeavor to convert him for yourself, it would be cool to see your final outcome.

Scarab Sages

I thought about that, and here's my counter arguement.

Diplomacy is a class skill for occultists, and the enchantment implement gives them a lot of ability to either mind control or boost their social abilities. Instead of being a member of the clergy, he could be a wealthy patron. Wheeling and dealing behind the scenes, he could get favors from the church in return for house Thrune resources and contacts.

Essentially he could be a member of high standing in the church due to his political manuvering, not his class levels.


That sounds intriguing. If you do stat him up ad an occultist, please post a build!

Scarab Sages

mechaPoet wrote:

Counterpoint: would the Lord of Hell deny Barzalai divine power for his schemes? Or does a lust for power and a willingness to exploit whatever loopholes and fiendish aid can be acquired fall precisely within Asmodeus' wheelhouse? Mephistopheles is a powerful archfiend, but still second fiddle to Asmodeus. Remember, Hell has a very strict hierarchy and chain of command. You can run your game how you want, of course, but it feels to me like Barzalai is doing exactly what the Price of Darkness wants, whether he thinks he is or not. And maybe the granting of spells and divine power is not so personally involved; Asmodeus may not have quite the level of personal involvement in mortal affairs to pay so much attention to Thrune directly.

That said! This is still an interesting take on the matter. Occultist makes a lot of sense for the reasons you've outlined, as well as their skill with binding circles and such. If you think it's an interesting and worthwhile endeavor to convert him for yourself, it would be cool to see your final outcome.

I'll see what I can do about the build. My counter to your counter is that Asmodeus caries about legal abuse and so on and so forth so long as it isn't used against him. He, as a god, demands unwavering obedience from his subjects, and he takes it as a 'burden' to rule them.

Here Thrune is using his power and Asmodeus is getting nothing out of it. Thrune isn't proselytizing, isn't spreading big A's influence, and is using the Church and it's resources for his own personal gain. It just seems like Asmodeus is fond of writing and abusing contracts, not getting the short end of such contracts, especially by such an unintelligent man (11 int before Thrune's 'upgrade' with the puzzlebox.)


One caveat: The first chapter states that Barzillai has reached an impenetrable glass ceiling on his road to increased personal power. He can't proceed higher up in the church hierarchy without giving up his Thrune legacy, and won't be promoted higher in his house because of his strong affiliation with the church of Asmodeus. So Barzy is sitting on two chairs, and does not want to pick one. That's why he invents his own way to accumulate more power, and subsequently that's why we have an adventure to play.

I'm sure you can invent some other reason why the Queen stopped his ascent (since you are taking him out of the church), and why he as a way forward went to the unpopular Kintargo; just that it could be good to have one.

Sovereign Court

Relic Hunter inquisitor lets you keep the best of both.


I wonder why Asmodeus would want Barzillai to become a Genius Loci.

Scarab Sages

Axial wrote:
I wonder why Asmodeus would want Barzillai to become a Genius Loci.

That's the point: I don't think he would. So that is why I remade him as an occultist. I did this super fast, so sorry if it is out of order or some of the math is off. Turned out he becomes a BAD-@$$.

I tried to keep to the original Thrune as much as possible, similar skills, feats, and equipment. I didn't touch any of his 'special' abilities from his heartless condition, and all of them still apply.

I reduced his belt of physical perfection to physical might, as he can give himself a +4 to strength through his transmutation ability. Also got rid of his cloak (he gets it through his abjuration ability) and used the money to get him a lesser rod of quicken spell (He weilds it in his off hand, with his mace in the primary hand, remember, he doesn't need a free hand to cast his psychic spells!) I tried to keep the same spells that he normally has, but added a few more. I got rid of his power attack and improved critical for extra mental focus and Expanded Arcana to get a few more spells.

I also swapped his INT and WIS and changed out his headband of wisdom for one of intelligence. Like I said, this isn't a complete rebuild, just a class shift.

Though Barzilliai Thrune has never been a true believer in Asmodeus, he recognized the power that the church held in Chelliax and used this to his advantage. Currying political favors and prestige, he was able to raise to a reasonably high level in both the church and the government. However, recently, he has hit a glass ceiling. It became apparent that queen Abrogail II was never going to make him part of her inner circle, as he was just too distantly related. Similarly, he had also hit the top of where he could go with the church, as simply wasn't able to become anything higher without being an archbishop. Unwilling to accept that he had hit the most powerful he could become, he launched a dastardly scheme.

Barzilliai Thrune
Male Advanced human Occultist 15
LE Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init+3 (+5 with heightened Awareness); Senses: Perception +20
----- Defense -----
AC 31 (+3 Dex, +11 Armor, +4 Deflection, +2 Natural Armor, +1 dodge)
hp206 (15d8+135)
Fort+22,Ref+14,Will+19
Defensive Abilities: Many (see text in book 4), Stoneskin (absorbing 90 HP), SR 27
----- Offense -----
Speed 30 ft. (40 in armor and hasted)
Melee +23/+23/+18/+13 (2d6+10, +1d6 fire)(+20/+15/+10 w/o haste, heroism, and weapon of awe, dealing 2d6+8 damage)
Space5 ft.;Reach5 ft.
Special Attacks: See implements section
Occultist Spells: (Cl 15, Concentration +22/+31 for defensive casting)
Level 5 (4/day) Spell Resistance, Planar Binding (lesser), True Seeing, Command (greater), Cone of Cold, Mislead, Overland Flight
Level 4 (6/day) Dismissal (DC21), Dimension door, Detect Scrying, Hold Monster (DC21), Sending, Illusory Wall, Echolocation
Level 3 (7/day) Dispel Magic, Cure Serious WOunds, nondetection, Pierce Disguise, Suggestion (DC 20), Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Stone Shape
Level 2 (7/day)Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Locate Object, Calm Emotions (19), ghost whip, Mirror Image, Weapon of Awe
Level 1 (7/day) Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Heightened Awareness, Memorize page, Burning Hands, Illusion of Calm, Feather Fall
----- Tactics -----
-->Before Combat: Barzillai casts Nondetection, Heightened Awareness, and Detect Scrying every day. Before combat begins, he casts Mirror Image, Heroism and Stoneskin (from a scrolls, already counted in statistics) and then Spell Resistance.
-->During Combat: On the first round of combat, he expends his heightened awareness for a bonus to initiative, then he activates his boots of speed as a free action (already counted), casts Weapon of Awe as a standard action (already counted), and uses his swift action to activate a Mind Barrier. On subsequent rounds he uses evocation spells or his evocation implement to deal damage. If one PC is causing trouble, he tries to shut them down with his Enchantment abilities. If forced into melee, he uses his Legacy Weapon ability to make his weapon a +4 flaming impact bane weapon (against whatever the melee attacker's race is)

----- Statistics -----
Str20, Dex16, Con24, Int24, Wis15, Cha18
Base Atk+11; CMB+16; CMD 33
Feats: Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Construct, Craft Wonderous Item, Extra mental Focus, Iron Will, Expanded Arcana, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace.)
Skills: Bluff:+20, Craft (Torture Devices) +13, Diplomacy+23, Intimidate:+17 Knowledge (Arcana, Planes, Religion)+25, Knowledge(Local, Nobility)+14, Linguistics:+11, Perception:+20, Spellcraft +25, Sense Motive+20, Use Magic Device +27
Languages Common, Aklo, Draconic, Infernal, Strix, shadowtongue, Dwarven, Elven, Giant.
----- Special Abilities -----
Mental Focus: 24
(6 into Transmutation)
(8 into Abjuration)
(6 into Evocation)
(3 into Enchantment)
(1 into conjuration)

Magic Item Skill (included)
Object Reading
Shift Focus
Aura Sight
Magic Circles
Outside Contrct 2
Binding Circles

Implements:
Transmutation: +3 (Boots of Seed)
>>>Resonance: +4 Bonus to Strength (Already counted)
-->Legacy Weapon
-->Size Alteration
-->Gravity Mastery
Enchantment: 1000 GP Asmodean Necklace (already included in gear)
>>>Resonance: +1 to charisma based skill checks
-->Cloud Mind (DC 24)
-->Obey (DC 24, or 26 if against Humanoid)
-->Mind Slumber (DC 24)
-->Binding Pattern (DC 24, 7 rounds)
-->Forced Alliance (DC 24)
Abjuration (Breastplate)
>>>Resonance: +4 bonus to saves
-->Mind Barrier (30 points of damage)
-->Unraveling (+16 to Caster Level, or +19 vs. psychic magic)
Illusion: Ring of Spell storing
>>>Resonance: none (no mental focus)
Evocation: Gloves of Elvenkind
>>>Resonance: +3 Damage to evocation powers/instant damaging evocation spells (already included)
-->Energy Ray (8d6+3)
-->Energy Blast (10d+36 AOE damage, Reflex DC 24 for half)
Conjuration: 1000 GP Statuette of Asmodeus hanging from his belt
>>>Resonance:None (1 Mental focus)
-->Servitor (Summon monster 5)
-->Sidestep (150 Feet)

Gear: Ring of Spell Storing, Scroll of Blade Barrier, Scroll of Geas, Scrolls of Stoneskin (2), Scroll of Heroism, Wand of Cure Critical Wounds (17 charges), Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell
Other Gear: +5 improved fire resist breastplate, +3 flaming impact heavy mace, Belt of Physical Might +4 (Dex and Con), Boots of Speed, Chelish Crux (special), Headband of Intelligence +4, Ring of protection +4. 4000 GP worth of psychically significant itmes, Gloves of Elvenkind 2500 GP ring, Masterwork tools (Torture implement crafting)


Well, this comes book 6, but part of why Asmodeus is permitting Barzallai isn't for Barzallai's benefit - its a lesson for Queen Abrogail.

"Basically, here's this amazingly disastrous thing that nearly happened and was only stopped by a third party. You need to get it together."

Also, Asmodeus is totally cool with his servants working at cross-purpose to each other. The servant that triumphs was the most worthy, after all.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not to mention that a genius loci with it's soul sworn to Asmodeus/Hell/Mephistopheles could be useful in establishing a more firm control over Cheliax. The other part of the scheme* was probably a factor, as well.

*-

Spoiler:
Kintargo/Ravounel not technically being a part of Cheliax: expanding the area of Infernal influence is worth the risk; at worst, all Asmodeus "loses" is a flawed tool (and not even that, really, since Barzallai's soul is still damned to Hell)

Scarab Sages

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Not to mention that a genius loci with it's soul sworn to Asmodeus/Hell/Mephistopheles could be useful in establishing a more firm control over Cheliax. The other part of the scheme* was probably a factor, as well.

*- ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

The real issue here is that he keeps his powers all throughout the course of the books, even as a bone devil. What reason would Asmodeus POSSIBLY have to keep giving him all his powers while he's being tortured by Mephistopheles.

It just makes more sense to me that he'd be an occultist, he still deals with outsiders (devil contracts) but this way he's also much better at delving into ancient evil magic rituals and would know more about loopholes in magic and how to abuse them. Plus, like I said, he seems more High-Int Low Wis, than the other way around.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

it's more fun that way


It's like being given a Baseball bat, and then being chained up while the pitcher pelts you with baseballs. If those blasted chains weren't in the way you'd be hitting home runs and probably the pitcher too, but now you just have to think "if only..."

Scarab Sages

Like I said, it just made more sense to me to make him an occultist, and so there he is (as an occultist) if you want to use him. If you think it's better to keep him as an inquisitor, please do so. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.


I'm not sure if 15 intelligence is considered a low intelligence build personally, but whatever. :-)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My guess is that Asmodeus doesn't want Barzillai to become a genius loci, but has given Barzillai enough rope to hang himself. There are hints at the end of the AP that Kintargo's rebellion and departure from the Chelaxian crown was all foreseen by the Lord of the Ninth. All of this was set into motion a century or more ago, and is just now coming to fruition. Sound convoluted? Probably. But Asmodeus plays the long game, and a century to him isn't even close to his long game.

Scarab Sages

captain yesterday wrote:
I'm not sure if 15 intelligence is considered a low intelligence build personally, but whatever. :-)

Well, it was 11 before he stuck a Chellish Crux into his heart.

In the end, I just don't see Thrune as being devout enough to warrant divine spells. To me divine characters always have their god/source of divine energy front and center in their life. After all, what is the difference between a warpriest and a fighter who worships a god? While that question is best left to a different thread, it has always been my opinion that:

-->A divine-powered character has true belief in a god, and puts their god's motives front and center in their lives. Now, they can only follow a single aspect of their god, or maybe has a flawed understanding of their god, but that belief is their main defining characteristic of their life.

-->A character that just worships a god is one who may agree with ideals, but is far less concerned with it. They may follow the rules and tenants, and may try to do work for him, but their religion is not their main defining characteristic.

It says in the books that Thrune pays lip service at best. His primary driving characteristic isn't Asmodeus, it is power. He sees being in the church as simply a stepping stone to get more power. Personally, I don't think Asmodeus is the kind of god who appreciates being used. That's why I remade him as an Occultist. If you feel differently, then please, feel free to ignore me.


No need to get upset, just pointing out a different side, I do disagree but it doesn't matter.

I like Occultist, a lot.

Anywhoo, have fun. :-)


I suppose make him a Occultist if you want but I'm going to agree with others that the plot is a little more meaningful if Barzillai is gaining power from Asmodeus directly.

It's made fairly clear in the last couple books that the Church of Asmodeus and the Chelish government don't exactly get along. And delving a bit more deeply into Chelish culture it seems as if the predominate attitude is paying lip service to devils in exchange for power. It seems to be the case that the average Cheliaxian with infernal inclination and most of all House Thrune view devils as tools to be exploited.

As has been mentioned already Asmodeus is aware and in favour of Barzillai's plans from the start. If anything the continued granting of power helps dupe Barzillai into thinking that he's managing to pull one over on Asmodeus when in fact he's being played. In my opinion running this aspect as written helps deliver the gut punch at the end that it turns out that the PCs were working in Asmodeus' interest all along by being instrumental in helping him deliver a message to House Thrune.

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