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Sigh. Natural Attacks can't benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Only BAB attacks can benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Magic Bolts can benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Ergo it follows BAB rules for the purpose of determining number of attacks.
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack).
Take special note of the "one-handed weapon" bit. Now please stop trying to tie this thing to natural attacks.
Sigh. Natural Attacks can't benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Only BAB attacks can benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Magic Bolts can benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Ergo it follows BAB rules for the purpose of determining number of attacks.
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack).Take special note of the "one-handed weapon" bit. Now please stop trying to tie this thing to natural attacks.
Yes he attacks with the Mystic Bolt as a light weapon. But the Mystic Bolt starts out as a "normal attack" that is then converted into a Mystic Bolt attack. A conversion which does NOT have to take place. If you have 2 normal attacks you could convert the 1st into a Mystic Bolt attack at which point you resolve the attack as a Mystic Bolt and it is now a light weapon. Then you can still take your 2nd attack and NOT convert that attack. Leaving it to resolve as normal. There is no action to use the Mystic Bolt by itself, you have to take an attack action first and then convert it.
Since Natural Attacks appear to fit the criteria for "normal attacks" they can convert into Mystic Bolts 1 for 1 just like any other Melee Attack or Ranged Attack action. And after conversion they are now light weapon attacks that can interact with Two Weapon Fighting.
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Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
A creature with 2 claws and a BAB of 5 or less can do the following:
2 claws1 mystic bolt attack (Either ranged or melee) and 1 claw (as a secondary weapon)
2 mystic bolt attacks (with the penalties for two-weapon fighting)
A creature with 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 gore and a BAB of 11 can do the following:
2 claws, 1 bite, 1 gore
3 mystic bolts (+11/+6/+1), 1 claw, 1 bite, 1 gore (All natural attacks are now secondary attacks and thus might take a -5 penalty to hit)
4 mystic bolts (+7/+2/-3, +3)(w/o TWF feat), 1 bite, 1 gore (All natural attacks are now secondary attacks and thus might take a -5 penalty to hit)
4 mystic bolts (+9/+4/-1, +9)(w/ TWF feat), 1 bite, 1 gore (All natural attacks are now secondary attacks and thus might take a -5 penalty to hit)
5 mystic bolts (+9/+4/-1, +9/+4)(w/ ITWF), 1 bite, 1 gore (All natural attacks are now secondary attacks and thus might take a -5 penalty to hit)
6 mystic bolts (+9/+4/-1, +9/+4/-1))(w/ GTWF), 1 bite, 1 gore (All natural attacks are now secondary attacks and thus might take a -5 penalty to hit)
Non-hand natural attacks can't be converted into mystic bolts because mystic bolts specifically calls out that hands must used for mystic bolts.
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack).
Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn’t attacking with a mystic bolt. The warlock threatens with a mystic bolt, but only if she has a hand free.
The rules on combining weapons and natural attacks are present and very clear. If you really must get even more mystic bolts, strong arm your way into playing a kasatha or something.
The rules on combining weapons and natural attacks are present and very clear. If you really must get even more mystic bolts, strong arm your way into playing a kasatha or something.
Thank you for the clear examples. This helps illustrate why doing a conversion from Natural Attacks to Mystic Bolts would be a bad idea, but there is still no place that say you cannot do conversion. Once it is converted it is now a 1-handed light weapon attack that uses up a hand. So it has to play nicely with all of the examples you pointed out. In almost every example you're going to have already used up your existing hand attacks so the conversion is wasted. But the conversion itself is not prohibited.
An example:
At lvl 1 with a BAB of 0, 1 Gore and, 2 Stomp attacks you can do the following:
With only 1 weapon in main hand:
1 Gore (+0), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Stomps are always Secondary
1 Mystic Bolt (+0), 1 Gore (-5), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Melee Attack converted to Mystic Bolt
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Melee Attack and Gore converted to Mystic Bolt.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 1 Gore (-5), 1 Stomp(-5) One of the Stomps is converted to a Mystic Bolt.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 1 Gore (-5), One of the Stomps is converted to a Mystic Bolt and used the other is converted and lost because you're out of hands.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF)All Natural attacks converted to Mystic Bolts and lost.
All Natural Attacks are Secondary because of using Mystic Bolts, which are 1 handed light melee weapons. The -5 COULD be -2 if you had MultiAttack, but is most likely -5. You can convert any number of the Natural attacks to Mystic Bolts but they are going to be lost because you are out of hands.
The rules on combining weapons and natural attacks are present and very clear. If you really must get even more mystic bolts, strong arm your way into playing a kasatha or something.Thank you for the clear examples. This helps illustrate why doing a conversion from Natural Attacks to Mystic Bolts would be a bad idea, but there is still no place that say you cannot do conversion. Once it is converted it is now a 1-handed light weapon attack that uses up a hand. So it has to play nicely with all of the examples you pointed out. In almost every example you're going to have already used up your existing hand attacks so the conversion is wasted. But the conversion itself is not prohibited.
An example:
At lvl 1 with a BAB of 0, 1 Gore and, 2 Stomp attacks you can do the following:With only 1 weapon in main hand:
1 Gore (+0), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Stomps are always Secondary
1 Mystic Bolt (+0), 1 Gore (-5), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Melee Attack converted to Mystic Bolt
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 2 Stomps (-5/-5) Melee Attack and Gore converted to Mystic Bolt.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 1 Gore (-5), 1 Stomp(-5) One of the Stomps is converted to a Mystic Bolt.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF), 1 Gore (-5), One of the Stomps is converted to a Mystic Bolt and used the other is converted and lost because you're out of hands.
2 Mystic Bolts (-4,-13) (w/o TWF)All Natural attacks converted to Mystic Bolts and lost.All Natural Attacks are Secondary because of using Mystic Bolts, which are 1 handed light melee weapons. The -5 COULD be -2 if you had MultiAttack, but is most likely -5. You can convert any number of the Natural attacks to Mystic Bolts but they are going to be lost because you are out of hands.
If you're using a weapon in the off hand it only gets worse since all of the conversions are wasted. This seems silly, and you're almost never going to want to do it, but it is allowed by the rules.
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Here is something I've been looking at and rereading to make sure it works.
"warlock can sling projectiles of
magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe."Mystic bolt is treated "as though they were light one handed melee weapons." This is similar to unarmed strikes. It is there to clarify what feats and abilities will work with it.
With those bits of information, you should be able to add the damage from other melee touch spells to your Mystic Bolt melee attacks. So Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Frost Bite should also add thier damage to your Mystic Bolt melee attack. This makes the Mystic Bolt a bit more useful. You can increase the damage or add fun effects like Bestow Curse, since you have to touch the target to deliver the Mystic Bolt damage.
Wait, is that even possible? If it would be possible to use melee touch spells at range (while shooting lightning/fire/ice/acid) that's an awesome start for a build!
If we just consider adding extra damage/effects to "regular attacks" with the Mystic Bolts the rules state that:
"abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts."
...Which makes me wonder if there is a list of those effects. I know the gloves that were mentioned at the start of the thread that add 1d6 acid damage is a great choice, but there must be similar items/spells out there right?
So far I've seen spells like bless being able to add a bit but there seems to be a lot that I'm missing.
I don't think Mystic Bolt was intended to replace the Reach Spell feat
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My question is this: if you have the choice to go touch attack or not at 5th. Could you use things like deadly aim and clustered shot with the full ac version? I.e. Non-touch to get some damage bonuses?
Cause at a whimpy 1d6+1/4 levels you'll run into energy resist (and Sr) at higher levels that will utterly cripple you. Either you dip warlock to always have an attack and stack things like sneak attack on it or such.
Compared to a kineticist they are utterly crippled. Meanwhile archers send forests of arrow out that do hideous damage, kineticist a use burn or not and have physical and/or energy blasts that scale better and gunslingers get access to Dex to attack and such
ah, but most of those options don't have good spellcasting too. And I think that's there reasoning. This is replacing the cleric's 1st level domain ability which does similar stuff.
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ah, but most of those options don't have good spellcasting too. And I think that's there reasoning. This is replacing the cleric's 1st level domain ability which does similar stuff.
The issue is this..you lose HALF your talents for the spells, which only go to 6th level as well as a deeper core of skill points, medium armor (with no way of moving up like a magus does)
Then for Mystic Bolts you lose access to a specialization, which means no full BAB or sneak attack style tricks that help balance out you damage as you level AS Well as a lot of useful talents that are specialization for 1d6+6 at 20th?
At least offer the option for deadly aim/clustered shot/more range. I mean trade off between touch attacks @ that formula or full ac attacks with feats like the ones I mention.
I agree it's a poor deal and feels underwhelming. My guess though is just that's there reasoning for making it bad. It's a side feature, not a main feature.
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I agree it's a poor deal and feels underwhelming. My guess though is just that's there reasoning for making it bad. It's a side feature, not a main feature.
Thing is.. yeah they can dual wield and use it as a melee and ranged but let's compare it to a dual wielding fighter with short swords.
A fighter can do d6+weapon training + Weapon Focus/Specialization +Greater W Focus/Spec and on and on.. plus adding in strength or dex (if you take the right enchants/training options)
My rogue/fighter fient master (who isn't terribly specced for damage does like 1d6+5 or so at 4th level.
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Please don't forget that the Warlock also has spells from Wizard/Sorcerer. So the Warlock has the ability to throw or cause the mystic bolts AND cast buff spells. It works pretty well in combat and is very versatile because it is still a vigilante and has a lot of RP potential attached as well.
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Please don't forget that the Warlock also has spells from Wizard/Sorcerer. So the Warlock has the ability to throw or cause the mystic bolts AND cast buff spells. It works pretty well in combat and is very versatile because it is still a vigilante and has a lot of RP potential attached as well.
In combat they generally can use Mystic Bolts or cast buff spells rather than use Mystic Bolts and cast buff spells. Most spells would need to be quickened to be cast in the same round that they used the Bolts.
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I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one that wants to build a Mystic Bolt focused Warlock now that the class has been made official but I am stuck on how to make the whole thing viable. It is great that the ability is unlimited but I feel that it is almost always better to cast a spell as things are now, and I was hoping to have more utility based spells backed up by a really powerful arsenal of mystic bolts.
This leads me to a question: What applies to these bolts? This passage is a pretty good explanation:
Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the Warlock makes, such as the arcane striker Warlock talent, function with Mystic BoltsI can't think of many feats or spells that applies directly to the ALL weapon attacks one could make in a round. I guess that maybe the Startoss Style might work since the blasts are technically light weapons that you throw, but when it comes to magical items and spells I'm drawing a blank. Anyone else got any ideas?
Slightly off topic, but where is this Warlock class that exists in an official capacity for Pathfinder? I haven't been keeping up with all the new stuff, so what have I missed?
Ultimate Intrigue. Warlock is a spellcasting (magical bolt shooting) archetype of the Vigilante class.
I don't have UI yet, but from what I know so far, Gloves of Arcane Striking should let you do a little "splash damage" when you use Arcane Strike with your Mystic Bolts.Yes, but it competes with Deliquescent Gloves for the hands slot, which will be the better option.
Do these Deliquescent Gloves really work for Mystic Bolts?
The "attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability", but Corrosive requires the wielder to first use a command to activate it.Upon command, a corrosive weapon becomes slick with acid that deals an extra 1d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit. The acid does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.
Since "mystic bolts are impermanent", wouldn't that make the Corrosive activation last only for one attack? Actually, since "the bolt appears only briefly", I don't think taking an action to activate the Corrosive property would be even possible.
If what I'm saying is right, however, some of the abilities listed for the Arcane Striker talent wouldn't work for Mystic Bolts either, which I doubt was the intention.
EDIT: Or is "upon command" not referring to using a Command Word action?
Hmm. I still don't see any real reason why the bolts shouldn't have STR to damage. Maybe off-hand STR ... Most issues with the "weak" mystic bolt can be solved by allowing that one.
Hmm. I still don't see any real reason why the bolts shouldn't have STR to damage. Maybe off-hand STR ... Most issues with the "weak" mystic bolt can be solved by allowing that one.
Because they are magical effects, and you don't add your Str Bonus to damage from magical effects.
Warlock mystic bolts aren’t manufactured weapons; they’re magical effects (similar to scorching rays or the flames from produce flame), and you don’t add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.
The class itself qualifies for Eldritch Knight, so one could gain access to the Weapon Specialization feat, if nothing else, and the levels all stack for Mystic Bolt.
I've found the gunslinger shenanigans work best for them, to go ranged and at 5th level have TWF/Rapid Shot/Arcane Striker going.
It is unclear what weapon group the Mystic Bolts are a part of, for feats like Martial Mastery and options like Weapon Training, but one could VMC to pick those abilities up as well and attempt to stack the damage.
Firing a bunch of bolts at 5th level gets you something like 3d6+9 against touch, which is fairly consistent damage, but nothing groundbreaking.
By the time once could get Weapon Specialization going (assume feats/items get the CL back) you get something like 4(1d6 +2 +3 Arcane Strike +2 Weapon Specialization) or 4d6+28. At 11th level, this seems pretty weak, but given the variable energy damage that more or less dodges DR it might keep up with other ranged characters, but still has the spells to back itself up. Haste makes it 5d6+35, nearly double what you can expect from a 10d6 fireball from another arcane caster (10d6- average 35 damage). All of that is without wasting a spell.
Are there any spells that would add flat damage? Divine Favor/Power are divine spells, are there arcane equivalents that would help with this?
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It is unclear what weapon group the Mystic Bolts are a part of
None.
Are there any spells that would add flat damage? Divine Favor/Power are divine spells, are there arcane equivalents that would help with this?
+2 Contagious Zeal, +2/+4 morale Blood Scent (for (half-)orcs), +1 Marid's Mastery (in water), +2 Black Spot (against the target; touch spell; will negates), +2 Anticipate Thoughts (against the target; will negates).
Sadly, the first two are both morale bonuses.
The class itself qualifies for Eldritch Knight, so one could gain access to the Weapon Specialization feat, if nothing else, and the levels all stack for Mystic Bolt.
I've found the gunslinger shenanigans work best for them, to go ranged and at 5th level have TWF/Rapid Shot/Arcane Striker going.
It is unclear what weapon group the Mystic Bolts are a part of, for feats like Martial Mastery and options like Weapon Training, but one could VMC to pick those abilities up as well and attempt to stack the damage.
Firing a bunch of bolts at 5th level gets you something like 3d6+9 against touch, which is fairly consistent damage, but nothing groundbreaking.
By the time once could get Weapon Specialization going (assume feats/items get the CL back) you get something like 4(1d6 +2 +3 Arcane Strike +2 Weapon Specialization) or 4d6+28. At 11th level, this seems pretty weak, but given the variable energy damage that more or less dodges DR it might keep up with other ranged characters, but still has the spells to back itself up. Haste makes it 5d6+35, nearly double what you can expect from a 10d6 fireball from another arcane caster (10d6- average 35 damage). All of that is without wasting a spell.
Are there any spells that would add flat damage? Divine Favor/Power are divine spells, are there arcane equivalents that would help with this?
How do you get mysitc bolts to scale with Eldritch Knight? the damage scales with warlock level. If you just abandon warlock you miss out on level 12 Arcane Striker, which gives you another +1d6 damage.