Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Does Weapon Focus Unarmed help with Grapple attempts?


Rules Questions


Grapple is a standard action that cannot normally be used as part of an attack. But Grapple says this.

Quote:
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).

So as a humanoid I am using my hands to grab.

So for example if I am a Monk would having the Weapon Focus Unarmed feat grant me +1 to my CMB on Grapple checks?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yup. Your unarmed strike is the weapon you are using to perform the grapple maneuver. You can apply the Weapon Focus bonus.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Nope weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed strike are different things

weapon focus wrote:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple


Technically you are using your hands but not your UAS to grapple, just as you use your hands but not your UAS to eat lunch.

Dark Archive

No it doesn't. The feat even mentions grapple by name as a option to take, you have to take a separate instance of weapon focus.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe, the only way this works is if you have "Grab" special ability from a Monk Archetype or Creature's natural attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I view this as an Oxford Comma issue:

Quote:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple

You can also choose (unarmed strike or grapple), not

You can also choose (unarmed strike) or (grapple).


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Technically you are using your hands but not your UAS to grapple, just as you use your hands but not your UAS to eat lunch.

You haven't seen me eat lunch.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
beej67 wrote:

I view this as an Oxford Comma issue:

Quote:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple

You can also choose (unarmed strike or grapple), not

You can also choose (unarmed strike) or (grapple).

I'm fairly confident they would say "unarmed strike and grapple" if they meant that.


unarmed strike, or grapple (with a comma) -- unarmed strike, and grapple are two separate things with their own separate modifiers and actions.

unarmed strike and grapple -- unarmed strike, and grapple are simultaneous and treated the same in all ways (i.e. you can't do one without also doing the other).

unarmed strike or grapple -- unarmed strike, and grapple are part of the same thing, but are used independently (i.e. they're treated as the same thing, but are separate actions).


Oxford Commas never enter into it. Those are for lists containing three or more items. The Weapon Focus entry mentions two things, UAS and Grapple, then throws in a parenthetical for spell casters (which isn't relevant here). You don't include commas when a list contains two items.

"You can pick any weapon. You can also pick A or B (or C if you cast spells)."

The only way to understand that in this context is for A and B to be two distinct choices.


You need to take weapon focus(grapple) independently. Weapon focus(unarmed strike) doesn't also grant you grapple and they aren't the same thing or even combined.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:
You need to take weapon focus(grapple) independently. Weapon focus(unarmed strike) doesn't also grant you grapple and they aren't the same thing or even combined.

+1


I fail to see how the fact that weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed are separate have any relevancy to the question.

When you make a combat maneuver you add any bonuses to you regular attack roll to the check and your CMB is used in place of your BAB. Unless grapple has its own special rules in comparison to other combat maneuvers for this specific scenario Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to grapples so long as you are not using a weapon (like a whip) for the grapple.


beej67 wrote:

I view this as an Oxford Comma issue:

Quote:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple

You can also choose (unarmed strike or grapple), not

You can also choose (unarmed strike) or (grapple).

It isn't. The weapon focus feat was just using an example of choices for weapon focus. Unarmed Strike and Grapple are two different things, and nobody grapples with an unarmed strike. You grapple with your hands, assuming you are a normal PC race.


lakobie wrote:

I fail to see how the fact that weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed are separate have any relevancy to the question.

When you make a combat maneuver you add any bonuses to you regular attack roll to the check and your CMB is used in place of your BAB. Unless grapple has its own special rules in comparison to other combat maneuvers for this specific scenario Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to grapples so long as you are not using a weapon (like a whip) for the grapple.

There is no such thing as Weapon Focus (Unarmed).


lakobie wrote:

I fail to see how the fact that weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed are separate have any relevancy to the question.

When you make a combat maneuver you add any bonuses to you regular attack roll to the check and your CMB is used in place of your BAB. Unless grapple has its own special rules in comparison to other combat maneuvers for this specific scenario Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to grapples so long as you are not using a weapon (like a whip) for the grapple.

The problem is all combat maneuvers except Trp, Disarm, and Sunder do not use a weapon. This includes grapple. Even though you have have weapon focus unarmed strike, it is not grappling. The fact that you use your hands to grapple does not make it an unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is a weapon, grapple does not use weapons.

Striking your enemy is an unarmed strike. Grapple is grabbing your enemy with your hands.


...you can't do a grapple with a weapon unless you have a specific rule that says you can. There is no general rule that says you use unarmed strike for grapple. There are specific rules (Grab special ability, probably some archetypes) but the general rule is that grapple does not use a weapon. And unarmed strike is a weapon.


Claxon wrote:
lakobie wrote:

I fail to see how the fact that weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed are separate have any relevancy to the question.

When you make a combat maneuver you add any bonuses to you regular attack roll to the check and your CMB is used in place of your BAB. Unless grapple has its own special rules in comparison to other combat maneuvers for this specific scenario Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to grapples so long as you are not using a weapon (like a whip) for the grapple.

The problem is all combat maneuvers except Trp, Disarm, and Sunder do not use a weapon. This includes grapple. Even though you have have weapon focus unarmed strike, it is not grappling. The fact that you use your hands to grapple does not make it an unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is a weapon, grapple does not use weapons.

Striking your enemy is an unarmed strike. Grapple is grabbing your enemy with your hands.

it doesn't say that, it doesn't say you can't make a grapple with a weapon, you're twisting the intent.

"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

You can wield a weapon to make a grapple check (some weapons even have it as a special ability). At best it describes what happens if a humanoid without 2 free hands tries to make a grapple check and them suffering a minus -4 to the CMB.


Bigguyinblack wrote:

Grapple is a standard action that cannot normally be used as part of an attack. But Grapple says this.

Quote:
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).
So as a humanoid I am using my hands to grab.

First, how do you come to this conclusion? The grapple rules only say it's more difficult for a humanoid to grapple without two free hands. That doesn't mean a humanoid can only grapple with hands. And AFAIK, there are no rules in the CRB preventing a humanoid from attempting to grapple even with no free hands at all.

Second, neither is an UAS necessarily performed with your hands:

Unarmed Attacks wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon...

Third, the only thing making an UAS and a grapple check have in common is being types of melee attack rolls which don't rely on a manufactured or natural weapon. Full stop. You cannot even make a grapple check in place of an UAS (as in the case of replacing a regular melee attack with a trip, disarm or sunder). And as can be seen in the above quote from the general rules for UAS, an UAS is about "striking for damage", while a grapple check isn't.

TL/DR: since neither grappling or UAS necessarily involve hands and otherwise have very little in common, I see no reason why the mention of hands in the grapple rules would have you believe Weapon Focus (UAS) should apply to your grapple checks.

(As already mentioned in this thread, a creature can apply WF (UAS) to grapple checks only if its UAS' have the grab ability, and only to the free action grapple check granted by the grab ability to initiate a grapple (and maybe the subsequent checks to maintain that grapple?). So the only PCs able to apply WF (UAS) to grapple checks are those that have at least 8 levels in tetori monk.)


If grapple is a legal choice for weapon focus, then it seems like it should be in a fighter weapon group.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not arguing the raw, but seriously? A single weapon focus counts for a weapon and all its special attacks, and somehow we are worse with the weapons (body parts) that we are the most familiar with.


Melkiador wrote:
If grapple is a legal choice for weapon focus, then it seems like it should be in a fighter weapon group.

There are many options for Weapon Focus that are not included in fighter weapon groups.


Mako Senako wrote:
Claxon wrote:
lakobie wrote:

I fail to see how the fact that weapon focus grapple and weapon focus unarmed are separate have any relevancy to the question.

When you make a combat maneuver you add any bonuses to you regular attack roll to the check and your CMB is used in place of your BAB. Unless grapple has its own special rules in comparison to other combat maneuvers for this specific scenario Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to grapples so long as you are not using a weapon (like a whip) for the grapple.

The problem is all combat maneuvers except Trp, Disarm, and Sunder do not use a weapon. This includes grapple. Even though you have have weapon focus unarmed strike, it is not grappling. The fact that you use your hands to grapple does not make it an unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is a weapon, grapple does not use weapons.

Striking your enemy is an unarmed strike. Grapple is grabbing your enemy with your hands.

it doesn't say that, it doesn't say you can't make a grapple with a weapon, you're twisting the intent.

"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5...

What intent am I twisting?

There is an official blog post about how combat maneuvers don't get weapon bonuses unless it's trip, disarm or sunder (and then some exceptions for specific weapons/abilities).

An example of which would be the whip with greater whip mastery, because it specifically tells you you can grapple with the whip.

Throwing a punch (unarmed strike) is not the same as performing a grapple. Weapon focus (unarmed strike) does not apply.

Weapon focus (grapple) exist as it's own separate feat and weapon focus unarmed strike does not apply to grapples.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Weapon Focus mentions grapple and unarmed strike.

SKR (the author of the blog) has responded in the past that WF UAS doesn't add to Grapple, because we have grapple as a different option. If you need me to find it, I'll dig.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Does Weapon Focus Unarmed help with Grapple attempts? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.