I need a new character for a home game


Advice


So I've been GMing WotW home game for almost 7 months now and we are approaching the end. (Best evil game I've ever played btw. The party went from ordinary pathfinder level evil to people who would make hitler look like the less evil option)

When it finally concludes I will be shift to being a player (we rotate from AP to home game as desired by the players choice and GM who is capable of making their own games).

It's been so long since I've built a character and I am honestly a pretty devoted builder so in the weeks leading up to it I'm interested in figuring out what to play.

As far as a power level of the game I'd say it'll be on a 6/10 or 7/10 if raponathuk (Spelling) is a 10 and Rise of the Runelords is a 1-2/10. So difficult but fair. We'll need good damage and good awareness and access to the magic system to survive as such I can't really just take a character who is more or less a gimp in combat. We are starting at level 1 20PB All RP15 and lower allowed and going to 14-16. Only special rule is no animal companions/extra character effects from your class are allowed except familiars.

Now that's out of the way I've got a few ideas and a few rules out classes. I've ruled out a number of classes due to extreme weaknesses at higher levels, specifically poor will saves and a few classes due to extreme repetition. I was looking specifically at the following classes

A zen archer monk which I had played before in the emerald spire but not in regular situation. Pro's Really strong. Con's Probably too strong, character has literally no weaknesses in a cooperating party due to extreme defensive abilities and inherent rail gunnery.

A regular monk with the standard SLA trades (Barkskin and such). Good but I just can't see the way it's better than being a sacred fist with 6 levels of spell casting.

A kineticist, oh god I tried to make this good but you just do no damage and only have like 2 unique effects (Sure you can fly, so what?) being able to lift thousands of pounds and getting an early ring of invisibility. I tried getting damage from the flurry of blows archetype which does dramatically increase the total DPS output and dramatically improve it but I just cannot justify doing less damage than the barbarian and having less utility than spell sunder. I really want to play it but cannot justify how weak it is. To top it all off if you aren't dwarf your will save is pretty bad.

Sacred fist/MoMS or Straight SF are both things I'd love to play. But I see they've been nerfed into oblivion and are no longer playable.

Investigator is something I was interested in because I love the concept of being an empiricist and convincing people with logic and reason instead of force of personality. Unfortunately this class largely falls into "Gimp" in combat territory. I asked and I'm allowed to use potion glutton for his homebrew god of gluttony to drink as a swift and I still can't seem to make this class work.

Things I've liked but ruled out due to bad will saves Swashbuckler, Slayer, brawler, and fighter.

Liberty's Edge

I mean, a dwarven elemental annihilator with a 1 level barbarian dip and raging vitality, or alchemist for a con mutagen seems all right to me.

But I don't know that there's enough here for me / us to really help you. It's your character, so you'll have to decide who to play. I enjoy the challenge of playing self nerfed characters, like the halfling barbarian /URogue.

I don't understand why you think sacred fist is nerfed to oblivion. It's a monk with bonus feats, lay on hands type healing, free quicken spell and 6th level casting, and the blessings seem good to me.

Instead of playing an investigator, consider playing an urban ranger, or a less flashy bard, or straight alchemist, or something with similar RP. Also, I can totally make this class work, it just require a dip for weapon and armor proficiency. A swift action drink/study, move action study/apply poison, and standard action vital strike works just fine. Or don't use the studied strike damage bonus and enjoy your half level bonus to hit and damage and full attack?? I mean, as described, it's a 6th level caster with free quicken self buffs who can wear heavy armor and half level bonus to attack and damage all the time, before we even get to skills and utility? I don't see the problem.

Liberty's Edge

For example, you can get mutagens too, and you can always go and dip regular alchemist for feral mutagen. Now just for fun, here's a random 6th level build that I'm doing as fast as possible.

levels: 4 investigator 2 mindchemist (or 6 investigator, less knowledge bonus no feral mutagen but better extracts)
feats: med. armor prof., heavy armor prof, potion glutton, power attack

str: 15+1level+2human+2enh+4mutagen+2size=26 +8 mutagen active
dex 12 +1
con 14 +2
int 16 +3
wis 10 +0
cha 7 -2

AC: 28 (shield extract active, +2 plate)
HP: 49

class features: cognatogen, mutagen, feral mutagen, double int to knowledge checks, etc.

attacks: +4 bab -2 power attack + 8 strength - 1 size +1 magic +2 studied= +12
damage: claw 1d8+8str+4PA+2studied+1magic or bite 2d6

skills: ~9 skills per level, or +15 +1d6 on knowledge checks

round 1: swift extract and move study, brace a longspear or something
round two, full attack

Liberty's Edge

Dipping Alchemist for Feral Mutagen is a bit silly IMO. You can get the same number of natural attacks or better with Alter Self and/or the Monstrous Physique spell line.

And Investigators don't really need help being good at Knowledge skills, also IMO.

Liberty's Edge

True, but I was being silly on purpose. Feral mutagen does have the advantage of lasting for hours, not taking the extract slot, and it depends a lot on whether your DM even cares about the difference between "good at knowledge checks" vs "trivially makes DC 50" and the like. If the DM never sets a knowledge DC over 25, yeah not so handy. But of course, you get other benefits, like brew potion as a bonus feat, throw anything, etc. Since it sounds like a very permissive home game, they might even stack vivisectionist and mindchemist.

The investigator archetypes are also full of great goodies. Like empiricist, or the relentless inspector letting you use perception to track, free bonus to will saves and perception checks, and get a free favored enemy on anyone you're following!!!!

Liberty's Edge

Armored Hulk dip - also great.


Zen archer monk is very strong. However, I find them just completely boring. Very nearly every round of combat is exactly the same as all the others. So I personally don't think I would ever play one for a long campaign. Maybe for a one-off or short series of modules.
Also, they do have some weaknesses depending upon the GM and campaign. A few years ago, the campaign revolved around a bad guy that did know of, learn about, and plan for the capabilities of the PC's. So the characters that were basically one trick ponies had serious problems. The fire sorc suddenly found that many things were benefiting from something along the lines of communal resist energy fire on a regular basis.
The archer (ours was a paladin, but still) found a lot of wind walls, mirror images, displacement, grapplers, fog clouds, and weapon sunder opponents.

Monk isn't so much better as it is as different from sacred fist. I agree the sacred fist will probably be more powerful in a straight fight. However, monk has other possibilities. I recently saw one in action that was pretty amazing. He decided he was also going to be the scout and trapmaster (our GM at the time luvs the occasional brutal trap). Took a single level of rogue. Pumped stealth, perception, and disable device. Also took iron will and the familiar feat from the familiar folio. Got a monkey with a rogue-ish archtype. Party almost always knew what was coming. And he was usually taking out (or at least distracting) the leader of the bad guys from stealth.

Kineticist is not something I can comment on directly, but they do seem to be very popular, if overly specialized.

I would suggest giving investigator another look depending upon the campaign, AP, GM, and rest of the party. If the rest of the party goes for combat machines, then a skill monkey is worth its weight in gold. I also wouldn't call them 'gimped' in combat. They aren't first tier, but they also don't need to be lousy. They can be as good as the majority of second tier combatants.

No class needs to be eliminated from consideration due to poor will saves. There are always things you can do to help the situation. Including a small amount of multi-classing.

I guess I'd say the only thing that can't be decent in combat is the core rogue.

Lately, for primary melee combatants, I've been having the most fun with bloodragers. Got some wierd abilities with the rage powers, bloodlines, and archtypes. Plus enough charisma to at least assist in social situations. Decent enough spell list to make use of some good scrolls and wands.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I had fun with a dwarf barbarian 1/magus X wielding a dwarven waraxe. It wasn't super powerful, but held its own and had lots of options.

16 13 (+1 at 4th) 16, 14, 12, 6. I forget where my 8th level boost went.

Traits: Berserker of the Society, Magical Knack or Lineage (I forget which) (shocking grasp),

1. Barbarian, Power Attack
2-8 Magus
3. Dodge
5. Arcane Strike
6. Combat Reflexes
7. Intensify Spells

I often cast enlarge person and the raged and two-handed power attacked with my waraxe. This totally tanked my AC (-4 because I also lost my Dodge feat), but upped my damage big time.

I could also use spell combat and spell strike with shocking grasp or use burning hands, color spray, etc. I think most of my 2nd and 3rd level spells were buffs like blur, fly, haste, see invisibility, etc.

But this was all before the bloodrager was a thing.

EDIT:

I used Diplomacy -2 to act as aggro. :-P


ElterAgo wrote:

Zen archer monk is very strong. However, I find them just completely boring. Very nearly every round of combat is exactly the same as all the others. So I personally don't think I would ever play one for a long campaign. Maybe for a one-off or short series of modules.

Also, they do have some weaknesses depending upon the GM and campaign. A few years ago, the campaign revolved around a bad guy that did know of, learn about, and plan for the capabilities of the PC's. So the characters that were basically one trick ponies had serious problems. The fire sorc suddenly found that many things were benefiting from something along the lines of communal resist energy fire on a regular basis.
The archer (ours was a paladin, but still) found a lot of wind walls, mirror images, displacement, grapplers, fog clouds, and weapon sunder opponents.

I just want to point out Wind walls are not a weakness Cyclonic bypasses it, Mirror images are best dealt with via archers most casters have them, displacement straight up doesn't work at level 6, and if you can beat my CMD without a natural 20 at level 7+ while within CR budget I'd fall out of my chair laughing. What you stated have proven not to be weaknesses.

Quote:
No class needs to be eliminated from consideration due to poor will saves. There are always things you can do to help the situation. Including a small amount of multi-classing.

I have 0 interest in being dominated, insane, confused, commanded, charmed, or otherwise CC'ed because I made a poor choice selecting a character with worse will saves "BUT YOU CAN FIX IT" I have no intention of losing 3-4 feats and a trait to make my will save passable for 10 levels before it inevitably get's lower and lower compared to saves.

Quote:

Monk isn't so much better as it is as different from sacred fist. I agree the sacred fist will probably be more powerful in a straight fight. However, monk has other possibilities. I recently saw one in action that was pretty amazing. He decided he was also going to be the scout and trapmaster (our GM at the time luvs the occasional brutal trap). Took a single level of rogue. Pumped stealth, perception, and disable device. Also took iron will and the familiar feat from the familiar folio. Got a monkey with a rogue-ish archtype. Party almost always knew what was coming. And he was usually taking out (or at least distracting) the leader of the bad guys from stealth.

I was unaware of the sacred fist gutting that happened. I have no intention of ever playing that archetype again. Farewell.


Undone wrote:
... I just want to point out Wind walls are not a weakness Cyclonic bypasses it, Mirror images are best dealt with via archers most casters have them, displacement straight up doesn't work at level 6, and if you can beat my CMD without a natural 20 at level 7+ while within CR budget I'd fall out of my chair laughing. What you stated have proven not to be weaknesses. ...

Not sure what you mean by Cyclonic. Yes, those spells don't work forever. Never said they did. But at lower levels they can be a problem. Later on, other spells can be a problem. Many creatures and builds are very good at beating even very high CMD's. I had an oracle that used spells to take away things like bows and or quivers. I have a level 7 magus that regularly gets numbers in the 50's. I've seen monks that get in the 40's. It drops significantly when you are denied your dex bonus. Some monsters also have special bonuses to various CMB rolls.

Everything that specializes too much has weaknesses. I agree that is less extreme with the zen archer than most others one-trick-ponies, but it still exists. Whether your GM or campaign will take advantage of that can be another topic entirely.

Undone wrote:
... I have 0 interest in being dominated, insane, confused, commanded, charmed, or otherwise CC'ed because I made a poor choice selecting a character with worse will saves "BUT YOU CAN FIX IT" I have no intention of losing 3-4 feats and a trait to make my will save passable for 10 levels before it inevitably get's lower and lower compared to saves. ...

That is of course your choice. I didn't say you had to make a fighter or slayer. But I've seen quite effective examples that have fallen victim to low base will save less often than many clerics or paladins.

btw: You asked for assistance and stated some very strong 'facts' that a large percentage of the field wouldn't necessarily agree with. I presented some alternate views, reasons why some hold them, and provided a suggestion that I thought met your extremely vague requirements. This was no contest that required an attack of my post. I hope you enjoy your campaign.


I don't know what you did but you screwed up somewhere with your Kineticist. At seventh level I did more damage then the Wizard and with a change in feats would have done even more damage. I was playing an earth one and he rocked. At higher levels your blasts get more varied and powerful especially when they become composite. The only complaint I had was skills or rather a poor selection of them.
You also complained about fighters being weak. Yes weak will saves but a feat every other level you pick two feats to boost your will you are good to go. Again seeing something wrong in how you made them. Even though I'm not a fan of fighters they are a solid class from start to finish.


The Sacred fist wasn't 'nerfed into oblivion' in the least; a two-handed weapon pure SF can still be a killing machine with full attack. When the pseudo-full-BAB was taken away I checked some comparative numbers, and honestly I can see why they did it; swinging a two-handed weapon with full Divine Favor buff for up to 6 attacks per round is a little nuts if you have full martial BAB on top of it. It's true that they took that goonish MoMS/SF Pummel thing out back and shot it, but I'd be lying if I said I was particularly upset about it.

Since SF can take Crusader's Flurry, there are a ton of interesting weapon options like a Gorum SF flurrying a greatsword with the Destruction Blessing. At typical level 9 stats, they can drop a flurry of 4-6 greatsword attacks that are pushing 30 damage a hit.

A Human SF can even (barely) fit in Guided Hand and Crusader's Flurry by 7 for stacked AC, and then maybe cross it with that juiced-up Sanctuary effect from Glory or Charm to be absurdly hard to attack with anything.

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