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Hi everyone! I've been trying to fill out a stat block for my shaman's spirit animal, a monkey. I know that when a wizard takes a normal, unmodified animal and turns it into a familiar, that animal "retains the appearance, HD, BAB, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type." (Source)
I also know that the description of the spirit animal in the shaman class says: "This ability uses the same rules as the wizard's arcane bond class feature and is treated as a familiar, except as noted below." And later, it is noted that, "Although a shaman's spirit animal uses the statistics of a specific animal, it is treated as an outsider with the native subtype for the purposes of spells and abilities that affect it." (Source)
So my question is: is the shaman's spirit animal treated as both a magical beast and a native outsider for the purposes of effects that depend on type? Or is treated as a native outsider instead of a magical beast for these purposes?
I've searched around quite a bit but haven't found any clear answer to this question. Perhaps it's not something that would ever realistically come up in an actual game situation? Thanks in advance for any insight! This is my first time posting on the boards, so if this thread should be elsewhere, please let me know :-)
Intro clause is key here:
"This ability uses the same rules as the wizard's arcane bond class feature and is treated as a familiar, except as noted below."
So you are using wizard familiar rules except where Shaman introduces it's own rule.
Shaman says it is Native Outsider, so that over-rides what Wizard Familiar says about Type.
Thus said Wizard Familiar rule is never applicable to Shaman Spirit Animal.
(I rule "for the purpose of effects that depend on its type" and "[native outsider] for the purposes of spells and abilities that affect it" are functional equivalents so the scope of each rule is the same and the Shaman one takes precedence... If you believe there is divergence in their functional scope, then Shaman's Native Outsider Type would still take precedence within it's scope, and Wizard Familiar Magical beast would apply within any scope not touched upon by the Shaman ability. Again, I don't believe that applies, but that would be the standard ruling (IMHO) *IF* you indeed ruled that the lines were not exact functional equivalents re: scope.)
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Thanks to both of you! I was inclined to go the "overrules magical beast" route as well, but when I added my spirit animal in Hero Lab, it was designated as a magical beast, so wasn't sure if I was missing something or if it was just a mistake in the program :-) Thanks again!
Quandary, I agree that those clauses seem to be intended to apply to the same things, despite the fact that they are worded slightly differently.
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Whoops, but I just found another confounding statement: "The shaman’s spirit animal is treated as a familiar for the purposes of all spells, effects, and abilities that affect familiars." (Source)
That kinda makes it seem like the magical beast and native outsider conditions do stack, rather than one overriding the other...
Whoops, but I just found another confounding statement: "The shaman’s spirit animal is treated as a familiar for the purposes of all spells, effects, and abilities that affect familiars." (Source)
That kinda makes it seem like the magical beast and native outsider conditions do stack, rather than one overriding the other...
Not all familiars are magical beasts. Not all magical beasts are familiars.
So you can cast Familiar Pocket on your Imp (outsider), but not your cohort Blink Dog (magical beast).
Being a familiar is also a distinct classification and spells/effects that affect familiars affect spirit animals. That clause doesn't mean they're magical beasts.
Right, the quote "The shaman’s spirit animal is treated as a familiar for the purposes of all spells, effects, and abilities that affect familiars." is not discussing CREATURE TYPE at all. "Familiar" merely refers status re: Class Ability. Some Imps are Familiars, some are not (e.g. independent creatures/NPCs). Some Familars are Magical Beasts, some (Improved Familars) are Outsiders, etc. The quote just means that even though Shaman Spirit Animals may have some different rules than normal Familiars (not just the Type feature mentioned), they still count as ("treated as") Familiars.
Further, just as in the original text re: creature type, "being treated as "X" for purposes of effects depending on X status" does not confer qualities/abilities of "X", so just as nobody is gaining Darkvision/etc from "being treated as Outsider for purposes of effects dependent on type", nobody would gain other abilities normally ascribed to Familiars. Literally, you can take a Feat "you are treated as a Familiar for purposes of effects dependent on that" and you don't gain any abilities whatsoever. (unless thru a spell targeting Familiars is cast on you, etc)
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Whoops, but I just found another confounding statement: "The shaman’s spirit animal is treated as a familiar for the purposes of all spells, effects, and abilities that affect familiars." (Source)
That kinda makes it seem like the magical beast and native outsider conditions do stack, rather than one overriding the other...
Not all familiars are magical beasts. Not all magical beasts are familiars.
So you can cast Familiar Pocket on your Imp (outsider), but not your cohort Blink Dog (magical beast).
Being a familiar is also a distinct classification and spells/effects that affect familiars affect spirit animals. That clause doesn't mean they're magical beasts.
I'm not sure about whatever Familiar Pocket is... but...
Don't forget about..."Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."
Any spell spell that is of type you, you can cast on your familiar no matter their type. So, you want your scorpion to look like a human? Alter self will work on them.
Also, a familiar is its original type. Animals are still animals, outsiders are still outsiders. A Wizard's familiar is treated like a magical beast for what effects can target it. (meaning imps can have raise dead cast on them, despite being outsiders)
A Shaman's familiar is treated as an outsider(native) for what effects can target it.
But is not treated as a magical beast, since the text that says shaman familiars are treated as outsider(natives) replaces the text from wizard familiars that says you treat them as magical beasts.
They are both familiars, and any effect that can target familiars target familiars targets either.
To further clarify, if you have some ability that allows the gaining of a feat on your familiar(such as the witch archetype) and your familiar is say a rabbit, you would be able to select a feat that has 'is an animal' as a prereq. But not one that has 'is a magical beast'. Since its type does not change, it is only treated as a different type for effects(meaning, for the most part, what can target it).
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Whoops, but I just found another confounding statement: "The shaman’s spirit animal is treated as a familiar for the purposes of all spells, effects, and abilities that affect familiars." (Source)
That kinda makes it seem like the magical beast and native outsider conditions do stack, rather than one overriding the other...
Well, my line of thought was: spirit animal is treated as a familiar for spells/effects/abilities that affect familiars --> familiars are treated as magical beasts for the purposes of effects that depend on its type --> spirit animal is treated as magical beast in a situation in which a familiar-affecting spell is affecting it.
But after reading everyone's explanations, I can see how that is an incorrect interpretation of the statement. I think this is a situation where it's difficult not to conflate all of the overlapping/overriding conditions involved (at least it is for me :-) )
Thanks for your input, all! It definitely helped! This is my first time playing a character with a "familiar" class feature, so I've been trying hard to learn all the rules involved.