Worth mentioning that the Noble Fencer's bonus will stack with Steadfast Personality, unlike Charmed Life. An NF Swashbuckler should actually be pretty difficult to dominate.
Yup and irrepressible...
Also the combination of high charisma and panache to social skill rolls really makes your skills quite strong without much investement.
Starry Grace is also pretty sweet as it allows you to get dex to damage on thrown weapon attacks and can be combined with rapid shot and precise strike. Big down side is the cruddy crit modifier.
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That said, Noble Fencer seems like it'll be an official version that's actually workable, which is good.It does sound like Noble Fencer works even better with a 2 level dip into Paladin though. Not that that's inherently bad - it just seems even more appealing for them than for other Swashes.
Eh. If you want Swashbuckler stuff, a Paladin dip doesn't seem super useful. Steadfast Personality gets you almost the same bonus on Will Saves (remember that you're delaying Noble Fencer's Will bonuses to get Paladin), and you already have sky-high Reflex, which makes the only real advantage Fort Saves and one Smite Evil a day.
It's not a bad dip at all (though if I was gonna do it I'd go four levels and Oath of Vengeance so I can make smite worth it), but it's a good dip for a lot of people (certainly any high charisma martial character), and it's not necessary at all.
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Honestly, Saves on a swashbuckler aren't that bad if you build for it. The Steadfeast Personality and Twist Away feats do wonders for a Swashbuckler's saves.
That is two Feats though, and still results in mediocre Will...and you can't take Twist Away until 11th level. Ouch.
Noble Fencer really helps, though.
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Eh. If you want Swashbuckler stuff, a Paladin dip doesn't seem super useful. Steadfast Personality gets you almost the same bonus on Will Saves (remember that you're delaying Noble Fencer's Will bonuses to get Paladin), and you already have sky-high Reflex, which makes the only real advantage Fort Saves and one Smite Evil a day.
Steadfast Personality is certainly useful for characters with high Cha - but there are a lot of will saves that it doesn't cover. I'd prefer Iron Will unless you have at least an 18 Cha - at 18 it'd be a toss-up. And it's not just the Cha to Will that the 2 level dip gives you, it also gets you +3 base Will/Fort. Plus - you can still use a positive Wis bonus if you have it. (besides - I like the idea of passing Ref saves on a 2 :P)
Plus the minor pali advantages of armor proficiencies, Detect Evil, and having a spell list. (hand that Cure Light wand over here!)
Besides - Swash doesn't really get that much past level 5 besides increasing that 1dmg/level - so you're not losing out on all that much by dipping.
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Uh...Steadfast Personality seems to have gotten a facelift since you last looked at it. That was true of me as well until recently, but it's looking pretty good these days. Even if it's only mind effecting stuff...what does that leave out? Plane Shift and Channel Energy?
Paladin is still a very valid dip if you're planning to play one by personality anyway, but it's by no means necessary to a Noble Fencer the way it almost is to standard Swashbucklers. Which was sorta my point.
And between 5th and 13th, a Noble Fencer Swashbuckler gains Evasion, Uncanny Dodge (and Improved Uncanny dodge), +2 to hit, +10 damage, +2 AC, two bonus Feats, +2 on saves vs. mind effecting stuff, jacked up social and derring-do stuff, and immunity to Intimidate, plus some less useful Deeds. It's debatable that Paladin gets better, but saying it gets nothing is inaccurate.
They get less after 13th, admittedly, but that's pretty late in the game for a lot of classes (it's arguable how much Barbarian gets after 12th, for example).
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Uh...Steadfast Personality seems to have gotten a facelift since you last looked at it. That was true of me as well until recently, but it's looking pretty good these days. Even if it's only mind effecting stuff...what does that leave out? Plane Shift and Channel Energy?
Wow - if that's the case - it's way better than Iron Will for characters with a good Cha. The SRD shows it only applying to mind-affecting - along with a FAQ that seems to confirm it. Steadfast Personality *shrug* (The FAQ mentions that it's only vs mind-affecting on the table. Check your link's table.)
Either way - of note is that mind-affecting leaves out about 1/2 of illusions (glamers, figments, and shadow illusions aren't mind-affecting - a lot of GMs are surprised that image spells work awesomely against zombies & vermin swarms etc.), a lot of fear effects, Dazing Spell metamagic, and many monster specific abilities. Plus probably a few that I'm forgetting.
So they renerfed steadfast personality? That was quick. What a bummer...
So as I'm currently debating a Swashbuckler. What are the go to feats besides: WF, Something grace, Something WIL Saves and prolly weapon specialization...?
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So as I'm currently debating a Swashbuckler. What are the go to feats besides: WF, Something grace, Something WIL Saves and prolly weapon specialization...?
Combat Reflexes is pretty much a must to take advantage of Opportune Parry and Riposte more than once per round.
If you have the feats to burn - they have the Cha & skills to take Antagonize or other intimidation based feats.
Eventually taking Crit Focus and crit feats would probably be a good idea.
Yeah combat reflexes makes sense especially considering that swordmaster's flair is prolly on the top of the shopping list right afeter Plume of Panache.
I really don't like antagonize... so I'd prolly skip that. Intimidate feats like Enforcer or are there others which are worth while?
I also like the idea of combining Noble Fencer and Inpired Blade for a really strong skill base, but I'm not sure if Inspired Blade is actually all that good...
Is there any way to make Blade and Tankard work with Swashbuckler? A generous reading would prolly allow it to combine with precise strike vut it's clearly off limits for Slashing/Fencing grace.
I also kinda dig Drunken Brawler on a Half Orc but it's prolly only cool and not all that good...
Yeah combat reflexes makes sense especially considering that swordmaster's flair is prolly on the top of the shopping list right afeter Plume of Panache.
I really don't like antagonize... so I'd prolly skip that. Intimidate feats like Enforcer or are there others which are worth while?
I also like the idea of combining Noble Fencer and Inpired Blade for a really strong skill base, but I'm not sure if Inspired Blade is actually all that good...
Is there any way to make Blade and Tankard work with Swashbuckler? A generous reading would prolly allow it to combine with precise strike vut it's clearly off limits for Slashing/Fencing grace.
I also kinda dig Drunken Brawler on a Half Orc but it's prolly only cool and not all that good...
...Huh, yeah, I guess Blade and Tankard wouldn't work with Slashing Grace, even if you're not using it to do any damage with the mug. It does, however, definitely work with Precise Strike so long as you aren't bashing anyone with the mug. You can still use it for dirty tricks/fast potion drinking, though. Maybe a strength-based swashbuckler would be the best idea for this.
I really don't like antagonize... so I'd prolly skip that. Intimidate feats like Enforcer or are there others which are worth while?
The good old Enforcer + Blade of Mercy (trait) combo works. If you have 13 STR you could use Power Attack + Cornugon Smash as well.
...Huh, yeah, I guess Blade and Tankard wouldn't work with Slashing Grace, even if you're not using it to do any damage with the mug. It does, however, definitely work with Precise Strike so long as you aren't bashing anyone with the mug. You can still use it for dirty tricks/fast potion drinking, though. Maybe a strength-based swashbuckler would be the best idea for this.
Hmm not sure if you can realistically pull of a STR based Swash with TWF. I do like a challenge however but I think I'd go with DEX as primary ability. Maybe as a Noble Fencer you can actually get away with dumping charisma and just picking up Extra Panache. Fitting in Dirty Trick feats would prolly be good (possibly better than more WF+WS)
Human Noble Fencer
STR 14 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 7
1 Extra Panache, TWF, Blade and Tankard (replace Shield proficiency)
3 WF
4 Weapon Spec
5 Iron Wil
7 ITWF (2 Dirty tricks per round...)
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9
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Artful Dodge will let you qualify for the TWF feats with your charisma, so that isn't much of a problem.
Artful Dodge will let you qualify for the TWF feats with your charisma, so that isn't much of a problem.
Hmmm interesting...
Artful Dodge will let you qualify for the TWF feats with your charisma, so that isn't much of a problem.
Is that confirmed?
I know Swashbuckler Finesse lets you use your Charisma in place of Intelligence for meeting prereqs, but I didn't realise it substituted for effects too.
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Artful Dodge will let you qualify for the TWF feats with your charisma, so that isn't much of a problem.Is that confirmed?
I know Swashbuckler Finesse lets you use your Charisma in place of Intelligence for meeting prereqs, but I didn't realise it substituted for effects too.
On re-reading both Artful Dodge and Swashbuckler's Finesse, I am almost positive that it does not.
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of her Intelligence score as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.
It does not mention replacing CHA with INT for effects of feats anywere, and only says as a prerequisite.
You use your intelligence instead of your dexterity to meet prereqs, but then you also use charisma instead of intelligence to meet prereqs. Seems to work to me.
Would be a very nice angle for a strengthbuckler to take, but I don't think it would stand up to contact with the FAQ team.
I get where you're coming from;
Int -> Dex + Cha -> Int = Cha -> Dex
But my gut tells me it wouldn't fly.
Might start a separate thread to FAQ it.
It won't get FAQ'd because Artful Dodge is from a player companion. The most we can possibly hope for is a reply from Owen Stephens since he's in charge of that line and has been doing a pretty good job of posting "unofficial but you should go with it if you're not sure" clarifications, though the MTT is a little old now so I'm not sure if he's still watching that thread. It's worth a shot, I suppose.
It works perfectly fine as far as the rules go. If you have Artful Dodge, "Int 15" is a prerequisite for Two-Weapon Fighting, and swashbucklers can use charisma to fulfill that.
I'd say it's much more gray than that though, since Artful Dodge doesn't make the prerequisite for Two-Weapon Fighting INT 15 - the prerequisite is still DEX 15, you're just allowed to use INT to meet it. Grammatically that's a huge difference. The obvious potential reply to "I'm going to meet this TWF INT prerequisite with CHA" would be "TWF is still a DEX prerequisite - it doesn't actually become an INT prerequisite just because there's a special condition that lets you meet it with INT".
If the ability score you must have in order to select or use the feat has changed, then the prerequisite has changed as well, because that's literally the definition of a prerequisite.
The issue is universal vs. situational. If you flip through the CRB, TWF still says "15 DEX". Artful Dodge arguably just gives you the option of using your intelligence score to meet what is still a dexterity prerequisite. If Artful Dodge said something like "you replace the dexterity prerequisite of all combat feats with an intelligence prerequisite" then it would be clear cut. As it is, the argument against it working is that you can't use 15 charisma to meet a "15DEX" prerequisite just because you have two prerequisite loophole abilities that apply to other things.
If the ability score you must have in order to select or use the feat has changed, then the prerequisite has changed as well, because that's literally the definition of a prerequisite.The issue is universal vs. situational. If you flip through the CRB, TWF still says "15 DEX". Artful Dodge arguably just gives you the option of using your intelligence score to meet what is still a dexterity prerequisite. If Artful Dodge said something like "you replace the dexterity prerequisite of all combat feats with an intelligence prerequisite" then it would be clear cut. As it is, the argument against it working is that you can't use 15 charisma to meet a "15DEX" prerequisite just because you have two prerequisite loophole abilities that apply to other things.
You could say no, but Im not sure why you would. The game won't explode. There is a clear line of reasoning that leads to the replacement. Just doesn't seem worth making a stink over.
You could say no, but Im not sure why you would. The game won't explode. There is a clear line of reasoning that leads to the replacement. Just doesn't seem worth making a stink over.If the ability score you must have in order to select or use the feat has changed, then the prerequisite has changed as well, because that's literally the definition of a prerequisite.The issue is universal vs. situational. If you flip through the CRB, TWF still says "15 DEX". Artful Dodge arguably just gives you the option of using your intelligence score to meet what is still a dexterity prerequisite. If Artful Dodge said something like "you replace the dexterity prerequisite of all combat feats with an intelligence prerequisite" then it would be clear cut. As it is, the argument against it working is that you can't use 15 charisma to meet a "15DEX" prerequisite just because you have two prerequisite loophole abilities that apply to other things.
Yeah, I probably wouldn't care myself. I'm just pointing out that there's an argument against it.
Following up after a few weeks play - daring champion seems to work very well so far at level 7 & 8.
Fencing grace + precision damage + challenge damage lets you dish out a lot of damage to boss or single monsters, while combat expertise & order of the eastern star benefits give strong defences (AC, save bonuses and even a little DR) to stand up to them.
Taking a single level of rogue or bard seems a good way to add a bunch of dex & cha based class skills to help in swashbuckler like behaviour (e.g. acrobatics, disguise, stealth, UMD)