While working on a Warpriest that uses a Hand Crossbow, I was considering using a Bayonet. However, since it requires a move action to place or remove it seems like that weapon is only of use when you need to conserve ammo. Thus, I could only really see it being used by Gunslingers when they are poor. Do you see any real reason to use a Bayonet mounted on a crossbow or firearm?
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Bayonets are fairly useless. If you have at least BAB 1, you can usually draw a weapon as a free action while moving, which makes having a dagger in your belt a better choice than having a bayonet.
If you could affix your bayonet and still fire your ranged weapon, then they'd at least be useful, but not so much as written.
I've lost touch with a lot of the feats in recent publications, is there a feat or other ability that makes bayonets more useful?
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Not that I am aware of. I think that the only reason I was looking at them was because of my taste for the exotic.
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Arguably, Empty Quiver Style is great for builds that use class features, such as Blessings, to enhance your weapon. Although you may only want the first feat.
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Socket bayonets are pretty neat.
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Socket bayonets are pretty neat.
only if your dm will allow you to take them since they are rather advanced and the stats for them can only be found in Rasputin Must Die
It isn't like bayonets would be overly useful, even if you could use better rules.
Simply put- most of the time when people use guns, it is because they have dex to damage. So melee weapons are 'meh' for those builds. No real room for switch hitting (unlike archery, which uses both dex adn strength). There are ways to get dex to damage on a melee weapon, of course... but that usually takes more investment than one would usually want with something as intensive as an archery style,
I know socket bayonets are from an AP, but really, it's not like they're actually a technologically advanced weapon. It's just a knife you can affix to a crossbow or firearm. I have no idea why the base "bayonet" doesn't just work like the socket bayonet, if I'm honest. Did that use to be a thing, historically, that you shoved a bayonet into the actual muzzle of a gun? I've never even heard of that.
I know socket bayonets are from an AP, but really, it's not like they're actually a technologically advanced weapon. It's just a knife you can affix to a crossbow or firearm. I have no idea why the base "bayonet" doesn't just work like the socket bayonet, if I'm honest. Did that use to be a thing, historically, that you shoved a bayonet into the actual muzzle of a gun? I've never even heard of that.
Correct, the first bayonets were loaded into the barrel.
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I have no idea why the base "bayonet" doesn't just work like the socket bayonet, if I'm honest. Did that use to be a thing, historically, that you shoved a bayonet into the actual muzzle of a gun? I've never even heard of that.
Yes, a "plug" bayonet was a thing. One thing you need to remember is that precision engineering and interchangeable parts are pretty much a twentieth century thing. Back in in the fifteenth century, even something as simple as a table would have four individually carved legs and they'd all be different. Creating a socket that would fit firmly around an individually gunsmithed barrel while not blocking the muzzle, and then creating a knife to fit that socket was, to put it bluntly, challenging.
It was much easier to create a tapering bayonet that simply jammed into the muzzle like a cork into a bottle.
It just seems crazy that we don't have socket bayonets in PF. I mean, is that seriously a thing that would break verisimilitude for people?
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It just seems crazy that we don't have socket bayonets in PF. I mean, is that seriously a thing that would break verisimilitude for people?
Probably not, but you've still got the problem that the bayonet itself is a pretty useless weapon, both in real life and in Pathfinder.
The only reason that it exists at all in the real world is because it turns your musketeers into a third-rate pike formation. In Pathfinder, you usually aren't surrounded by the rest of your musketeer squadron and you didn't take the teamwork feats to be able to use formation tactics. A lone musketeer wouldn't have bothered to use a bayonet; instead he would have used the unloaded musket as a club or (more likely) drawn a saber or another, more effective, weapon.
I have no idea why the base "bayonet" doesn't just work like the socket bayonet, if I'm honest. Did that use to be a thing, historically, that you shoved a bayonet into the actual muzzle of a gun? I've never even heard of that.Yes, a "plug" bayonet was a thing. One thing you need to remember is that precision engineering and interchangeable parts are pretty much a twentieth century thing. Back in in the fifteenth century, even something as simple as a table would have four individually carved legs and they'd all be different. Creating a socket that would fit firmly around an individually gunsmithed barrel while not blocking the muzzle, and then creating a knife to fit that socket was, to put it bluntly, challenging.
It was much easier to create a tapering bayonet that simply jammed into the muzzle like a cork into a bottle.
Going off on a tangent but Eli Whitney was building muskets with interchangeable parts in 1800 or so. That said - you're absolutely correct that earlier firearms were all created by craftsmen and even into the 19th century most still were.
Realism aside, I just think people like the idea of having a sharp blade attached to their gun/crossbow because it looks cool and they want their character to be able to fight reasonably well with it. I do anyway. I do agree though, that for that to work you would need to be able to finesse bayonets somehow, in addition to them working like socket bayonets.
Anyway, I guess this whole subplot is a bit of a derail, apologies. I guess the point is there really is no viable reason for a crossbowyer or gunslinger to utilize a bayonet under the current rules. A socket one fixes the action economy problem, but still makes actually switch-hitting with a bayonet very burdensome and bad.
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It just seems crazy that we don't have socket bayonets in PF. I mean, is that seriously a thing that would break verisimilitude for people?
Of course, even the historical socket bayonets made reloading more difficult. That's why troops didn't go into battle with their bayonets already attached (or have them built into the gun for that matter) - they didn't want to rip up their hands while reloading. Generally they'd only attach them when they expected to get only one more shot before melee.
If you want to switch-hit with a gun, it's probably better to make sure that your gun is also a dagger, hammer, or battleaxe.
If you want to switch-hit with a gun, it's probably better to make sure that your gun is also a dagger, hammer, or battleaxe.
What about with a Hand Crossbow?
If you want to switch-hit with a gun, it's probably better to make sure that your gun is also a dagger, hammer, or battleaxe.What about with a Hand Crossbow?
I guess you could glue a fauchard to it or something.
Yes, a "plug" bayonet was a thing. One thing you need to remember is that precision engineering and interchangeable parts are pretty much a twentieth century thing. Back in in the fifteenth century, even something as simple as a table would have four individually carved legs and they'd all be different. Creating a socket that would fit firmly around an individually gunsmithed barrel while not blocking the muzzle, and then creating a knife to fit that socket was, to put it bluntly, challenging.
It was much easier to create a tapering bayonet that simply jammed into the muzzle like a cork into a bottle.
Yes, plug bayonets were a thing, just not for long.
Socket bayonets have been standard issue for militaries since early 18th century, and examples exist from the mid 17th century.
If you have the technology to build the gun, a socket bayonet will be no problem.
I know socket bayonets are from an AP, but really, it's not like they're actually a technologically advanced weapon. It's just a knife you can affix to a crossbow or firearm. I have no idea why the base "bayonet" doesn't just work like the socket bayonet, if I'm honest. Did that use to be a thing, historically, that you shoved a bayonet into the actual muzzle of a gun? I've never even heard of that.
Correct- and it sets the tech levels at a rather specific time period of very early adoption of firearms.
Because...well... as I said, the bayonets weren't going to be used much anyway. Might as well make them a flavor thing.
Seriously...I don't see this as a place to die in order to make a stand. The overlap of melee weapons and guns is extremely small, even if things were more convenient.