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I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
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If you're in a homebrew game that's certainly a reasonable thing to ask your GM for, but RAW it is not possible.
I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
Yes, as long as you can consistently be it (meaning 1/day at least since feat/skills are assumed to be training going on).
Same as taking ranks in Fly once fly spell is available as a wizard. Because you aren't flying 24/7, but can consistently do it.
I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
Yes, as long as you can consistently be it (meaning 1/day at least since feat/skills are assumed to be training going on).
Same as taking ranks in Fly once fly spell is available as a wizard. Because you aren't flying 24/7, but can consistently do it.
This is a feat, not a skill. If you don't satisfy the prereqs, you can't take it. Do you have rules text showing otherwise?
This is a feat, not a skill. If you don't satisfy the prereqs, you can't take it. Do you have rules text showing otherwise?I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
Yes, as long as you can consistently be it (meaning 1/day at least since feat/skills are assumed to be training going on).
Same as taking ranks in Fly once fly spell is available as a wizard. Because you aren't flying 24/7, but can consistently do it.
He's saying he satisfies them SOMETIMES , which is what makes it a gray area.
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When selecting a feat such as Power Attack, it says that the prerequisite is 13 strength. Near the start of the feats section
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
The Important line here is
Your character must have the indicated ability score
An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.
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An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.
Now, this isn't always true. If a bonus is considered a permanent bonus, then it can be used to qualify for feat pre-requisites. However things like Mutagen or Rage aren't permanent bonuses, so they can't be used to qualify for the feat.
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Thanks guys for all your answers. After reading the discussion I may just go with the weapon finesse/piranha strike. It seems to make a little more sense for my character and the gnomes -2 to strength will not affect me as much. Natural weapons such as bite and claws are considered light weapons, correct?
An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.Now, this isn't always true. If a bonus is considered a permanent bonus, then it can be used to qualify for feat pre-requisites. However things like Mutagen or Rage aren't permanent bonuses, so they can't be used to qualify for the feat.
Yes but what bonuses become permanent? The only ones I can think of are inherent which can be gained in a few different ways. There is no way to shut these off and thus this makes a new permanent score.
Follow up later on with an Amulet of Mighty Fists - Agility, and have fun stacking up Dex! :)
Thanks guys for all your answers. After reading the discussion I may just go with the weapon finesse/piranha strike. It seems to make a little more sense for my character and the gnomes -2 to strength will not affect me as much. Natural weapons such as bite and claws are considered light weapons, correct?
All natural weapons are considered light weapons for weapon finesse yes
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Yes but what bonuses become permanent? The only ones I can think of are inherent which can be gained in a few different ways. There is no way to shut these off and thus this makes a new permanent score.An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.Now, this isn't always true. If a bonus is considered a permanent bonus, then it can be used to qualify for feat pre-requisites. However things like Mutagen or Rage aren't permanent bonuses, so they can't be used to qualify for the feat.
Belts/headbands are considered permanent after the first 24 hours. Of course, if you remove them, or the effects are suppressed you can lose the benefit of the feat.
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If it works with a permanent bonus, then it works with a temporary one.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
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If it works with a permanent bonus, then it works with a temporary one.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
Yes, but that doesn't mean that my aasimar can take Angelic Blood (preq: Con 13) with only a Con 10 just cause she can cast Bear's Endurance.
Plus, you are reading too much into the FAQ. It's talking about rolls, not feat perquisites.
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This has been talked to death.
To put it simply, the difference between a temporary ability and a permanent one is that it lasts for at least 24 hours.
Thus, if you can get 13 strength for longer than 24 hours you can take the feat. But, you can not use the feat during any time when you do not have 13 strength or when the bonus is temporary.
Meaning, if you qualify with a belt and you remove the belt you can not use the ability until you wear the belt for at least 24 hours.
This is true of any ability, form or enhancement.
This is true in cases like fly-by attack, where you need a flight longer than 24 hours to qualify.
Qualifying for feats is different from any other use of ability scores, in that it requires permanent scores over temporary. If you do enough searching the boards, you will see official posts that back this up.
Plus, you are reading too much into the FAQ. It's talking about rolls, not feat perquisites.
Feat perquisites aren't "relating to that ability score"?
"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.": Note it does NOT limit it to simply rolls. Feats are one of the things under "all of the same stats". If you don't believe that, open up the Bestiary and see what's listed under the Stat Block in the Introduction. You should find "Feats: The creature's feats are listed here" listed there.
So you could qualify with that Bear's Endurance, but it'd be a suboptimal option as it'd only be active when it's cast. The same thing happens when you're stats once qualified but no longer do [for instance old age or template added].
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Perhaps there's a more recent ruling, but this post may still be relevant:
Here's the official word:
1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
5. I personally believe that differentiating between permanent and temporary scores in this fashion is needlessly complex and only hinders player choices in a metagaming way.
6. I personally believe that you could revise the feat prerequisite system so characters could select feats before they actually meet the prerequisites, but wouldn't be able to use the feat until they do, which would allow (for example) monks and rogues to take Weapon Focus at level 1 in anticipation of having the required BAB +1 at level 2.
7. Implementing points 5 and 6 as official game rules would require making revisions to language elsewhere in the game (such as qualifying for a prestige class), similar to how the discussion about revising the Stealth skill is a significant change that affects other parts of the rules (such as scent and hide in plain sight).
8. The design team hasn't discussed implementing 5 and 6 as official game rules.
Thanks for the google-fu, Byakko. This is one of the posts I was talking about.
I don't have a goblinoid in this fight, but is that SKR post from before or after the "forum posts are not official rulings" policy went into effect?
This is a feat, not a skill. If you don't satisfy the prereqs, you can't take it. Do you have rules text showing otherwise?There are two times when you have to meet the prerequisites - when you take the feat and when you want to use it. The latter is obviously covered, and by RAW nothing prevents you being in mutagen form when you level up which takes care of the former.
That implies a fascinating interpretation of the leveling-up process, namely that it happens over the course of a few minutes and is preceded by a warning tingle so characters can prepare for it. Somehow I don't think you're going to find a GM liberal enough to buy that but not liberal enough to just take SKR's suggestion (which I support 100%) of saying that you don't need the prereqs to take a feat, only to use it. For instance, I doubt it'll fly at any PFS table.
What it comes down to is this:
Would you allow a 9 strength character to gain the power attack feat if, at the time they leveled up, they cast bull's strength on themselves?
Also, let's look at what Mr. Reynolds said.
Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
Seems pretty clear cut to me.
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That implies a fascinating interpretation of the leveling-up process, namely that it happens over the course of a few minutes and is preceded by a warning tingle so characters can prepare for it. Somehow I don't think you're going to find a GM liberal enough to buy that but not liberal enough to just take SKR's suggestion (which I support 100%) of saying that you don't need the prereqs to take a feat, only to use it. For instance, I doubt it'll fly at any PFS table.This is a feat, not a skill. If you don't satisfy the prereqs, you can't take it. Do you have rules text showing otherwise?There are two times when you have to meet the prerequisites - when you take the feat and when you want to use it. The latter is obviously covered, and by RAW nothing prevents you being in mutagen form when you level up which takes care of the former.
This can work by your 'tingle' way of working things. But, it can also work via regular(real world style) training methods. You only train for the ability while you have the buff going.
I feel like statements had been made that said you could take a feat if you did not qualify for it at all times, but it would only apply during the time which you met the prerequisites.
Unfortunately I don't have any resources to back that up.
Under strict interpretation the answer appears to be no.
As a GM, I would probably allow you to qualify for it while using your mutagen. You be spending a feat slot on something that would only work part of the time.
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I feel like statements had been made that said you could take a feat if you did not qualify for it at all times, but it would only apply during the time which you met the prerequisites.
Unfortunately I don't have any resources to back that up.
Under strict interpretation the answer appears to be no.
As a GM, I would probably allow you to qualify for it while using your mutagen. You be spending a feat slot on something that would only work part of the time.
The SKR post removes need to use the word interpretation. Temporary bonuses do not allow you to qualify for feats, definitely.
But, permanent ones do. Meaning any ability score bonus lasting longer than 24 hours, as per the rules on the subject.
Yeah, I don't really see any reason why I wouldn't allow someone to be able to use their Power Attack feat (or other, ability score dependent feat) for 1 min./level (Bull's Strength) or 10 min./level (mutagen).
That's two resources spent (feat slot plus whatever you're using) to be able to use Power Attack, and that's good enough for me.
As to the whole training thing, seeing as how I have leveling take place immediately, and allow fighters to use bonus feats, casters to auto-prepare any new spells per day (including a new level of spells), and everyone to have their new BAB/saves/HP (proportionately for HP) in case they get in another fight before resting, I don't have a problem letting the alchemist/Bull's Strength guy use his enhanced score for prerequisites.
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Yeah, I don't really see any reason why I wouldn't allow someone to be able to use their Power Attack feat (or other, ability score dependent feat) for 1 min./level (Bull's Strength) or 10 min./level (mutagen).
That's two resources spent (feat slot plus whatever you're using) to be able to use Power Attack, and that's good enough for me.
As to the whole training thing, seeing as how I have leveling take place immediately, and allow fighters to use bonus feats, casters to auto-prepare any new spells per day (including a new level of spells), and everyone to have their new BAB/saves/HP (proportionately for HP) in case they get in another fight before resting, I don't have a problem letting the alchemist/Bull's Strength guy use his enhanced score for prerequisites.
If you want to do this in a home game, you may. At home, anything the GM wants goes. :) Honestly, I prefer to allow temporary bonuses count for qualifying.
But, in games for PFS we do not have a choice.
Oh, whoops!
Thought this was in the advice forum.
My bad!
Yeah, unfortunately for PFS players (or those with GMs that use PFS' rules), temporary bonuses don't count.
I'd like to piggyback my own scenario in this case, but perhaps a negative answer is all the same:
As a Druid, optimal or not, I would desire to be a front-line melee combatant. Being a standard bipedal humanoid with no natural weapons, I would not qualify for Multiattack, but in the future, will be using Wildshape forms that may have multiple natural attacks. Is there a legal way for this Druid to acquire the Multiattack feat?
Once a Druid can Wildshape three times/day at Level 8, technically they can be anything else but themselves the whole 24-hours in perpetuity, resting within that period to regenerate the ability for the next day's repetition.
I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
It would have to be a permanent change that's been in place for at least 24 hours.
And of course, you would loose access to that feat if you drop the form.
And if the feat depended on the type of creature, the polymorph spell effects still won't get you what you want.
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I am building a 3rd level Gnome Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and after rolling my ability scores I ended up with a strength score of 11. I was wanting to take Power Attack as a feat but do not necessarily qualify for it as is, but would actual qualify for the feat when using my mutagen. Would it be possible to take this feat, stating that I qualify for the feat as another form and it only be active when the mutagen is in affect or am out of luck?
Thanks in advance.
It would have to be a permanent change that's been in place for at least 24 hours.
And of course, you would loose access to that feat if you drop the form.
And if the feat depended on the type of creature, the polymorph spell effects still won't get you what you want.
If you take the stance that beast shape is extended upon recasting instead of being overlapped by the previous cast... then having longer than 24 hours as a druid using wildshape is not impossible, at the right level and possibly including the trait which increases it to 2 hours per level for medium and small forms. This would allow you time to sleep to refresh your casts and you would never have to be your original race again.
If at any time after gaining the feat you took due to being wildshaped you lost the ability that allowed you to get the feat due to changing shape or any other situation... then you must regain the ability and have it for 24 hours again to then requalify for the feat.
Comparing permanent attribute bonuses to other feat requirements is apples and horses. They aren't the same. Temporary attribute bonuses that last longer than 24 hours become permanent bonuses because the rules say so. The rules also say that if you have that permanent attribute bonuses may qualify you for feats.
The rules don't have similar language supporting the notion that a level 25 druid using wild shape qualifies for feats only applicable to the chosen wild shape form. (Though the size bonuses to attributes would be considered permanent for the last hour of the wild shape, and could thus be used to qualify for feats.)
So the GM really has two choices:
A) "You can't use a class feature with a finite duration, regardless of how long it lasts, to qualify for a feat you don't otherwise meet the prerequisites for."
or B) "Sure, this is a feat that your character can make use of that makes sense for your character to have based on their class features, so go ahead and take it. Besides, there is a precedent established by attribute bonuses lasting longer than 24 hours becoming considered permanent, so it seems reasonable to me to extrapolate that to other things."
Ultimately, GM's call.
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The SKR post is from January 2012. The FAQ on temporary vs. permanent ability scores is from October 2013.
The October FAQ functionally removes the distinction between temporary and permanent ability scores. (Actually, if you're brand new to the game, you might be completely unaware that any distinction ever existed in previous versions.)
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Comparing permanent attribute bonuses to other feat requirements is apples and horses. They aren't the same. Temporary attribute bonuses that last longer than 24 hours become permanent bonuses because the rules say so. The rules also say that if you have that permanent attribute bonuses may qualify you for feats.
The rules don't have similar language supporting the notion that a level 25 druid using wild shape qualifies for feats only applicable to the chosen wild shape form. (Though the size bonuses to attributes would be considered permanent for the last hour of the wild shape, and could thus be used to qualify for feats.)
So the GM really has two choices:
A) "You can't use a class feature with a finite duration, regardless of how long it lasts, to qualify for a feat you don't otherwise meet the prerequisites for."
or B) "Sure, this is a feat that your character can make use of that makes sense for your character to have based on their class features, so go ahead and take it. Besides, there is a precedent established by attribute bonuses lasting longer than 24 hours becoming considered permanent, so it seems reasonable to me to extrapolate that to other things."
Ultimately, GM's call.
This is not true. There is a post somewhere, which I can not remember now, where a Dev(I think it was Mike Brock, but I could be wrong) anyway... They used the example of flight and qualifying for fly-by attack. If you could gain flying, and it lasted longer than 24 hours, you count. If not, you do not.
This is not true. There is a post somewhere, which I can not remember now, where a Dev(I think it was Mike Brock, but I could be wrong) anyway... They used the example of flight and qualifying for fly-by attack. If you could gain flying, and it lasted longer than 24 hours, you count. If not, you do not.Comparing permanent attribute bonuses to other feat requirements is apples and horses. They aren't the same. Temporary attribute bonuses that last longer than 24 hours become permanent bonuses because the rules say so. The rules also say that if you have that permanent attribute bonuses may qualify you for feats.
The rules don't have similar language supporting the notion that a level 25 druid using wild shape qualifies for feats only applicable to the chosen wild shape form. (Though the size bonuses to attributes would be considered permanent for the last hour of the wild shape, and could thus be used to qualify for feats.)
So the GM really has two choices:
A) "You can't use a class feature with a finite duration, regardless of how long it lasts, to qualify for a feat you don't otherwise meet the prerequisites for."
or B) "Sure, this is a feat that your character can make use of that makes sense for your character to have based on their class features, so go ahead and take it. Besides, there is a precedent established by attribute bonuses lasting longer than 24 hours becoming considered permanent, so it seems reasonable to me to extrapolate that to other things."
Ultimately, GM's call.
Do you mean this, from 2012?
I just talked to Jason about this, and under the strictest interpretation of the current rules, unless you have a "reliable means of flying every day," you don't meet the prerequisite of "Fly speed" (which is what Flyby Attack and Hover have).
Jason is falling on the side of "unless you have it all the time, it's not 'reliable,' so it doesn't count." To which I reply, "that means if I'm a sor/wiz who learns and casts overland flight every day (1 hour/level), at level 16+ I'm able to fly every minute of the day that I'm normally awake, yet I still don't qualify for the feat." To which he replies, "yep, but otherwise a 5th-level wizard who knows fly can take Flyby Attack, which is really a 'shortcut feat' [in that its effect is much like Spring Attack without having to take all the prereqs] and is probably too good."
So, as written, if your flight is always on (like several 15th-level sorcerer bloodlines) you qualify for those feats. If your flight is periodic (like the fly spell, alchemist wing discovery, or 9th-level celestial sorcerer wings of heaven bloodline ability), you don't qualify.
Which, IMO, is needlessly complex...
EDIT: Ironically(?), this is the same thread as and just two posts later than Byakko's SKR quote (though that's not how I found it).
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This is not true. There is a post somewhere, which I can not remember now, where a Dev(I think it was Mike Brock, but I could be wrong) anyway... They used the example of flight and qualifying for fly-by attack. If you could gain flying, and it lasted longer than 24 hours, you count. If not, you do not.Comparing permanent attribute bonuses to other feat requirements is apples and horses. They aren't the same. Temporary attribute bonuses that last longer than 24 hours become permanent bonuses because the rules say so. The rules also say that if you have that permanent attribute bonuses may qualify you for feats.
The rules don't have similar language supporting the notion that a level 25 druid using wild shape qualifies for feats only applicable to the chosen wild shape form. (Though the size bonuses to attributes would be considered permanent for the last hour of the wild shape, and could thus be used to qualify for feats.)
So the GM really has two choices:
A) "You can't use a class feature with a finite duration, regardless of how long it lasts, to qualify for a feat you don't otherwise meet the prerequisites for."
or B) "Sure, this is a feat that your character can make use of that makes sense for your character to have based on their class features, so go ahead and take it. Besides, there is a precedent established by attribute bonuses lasting longer than 24 hours becoming considered permanent, so it seems reasonable to me to extrapolate that to other things."
Ultimately, GM's call.
Do you mean this, from 2012?
...I just talked to Jason about this, and under the strictest interpretation of the current rules, unless you have a "reliable means of flying every day," you don't meet the prerequisite of "Fly speed" (which is what Flyby Attack and Hover have).
Jason is falling on the side of "unless you have it all the time,
Thank you. I'm just not doing any of my own googleing today.
Wildshape is weird because its a "temporary" bonus that you can have 36 hours a day
If the wizard bathes even on occasion he's wearing the headbant of intelligence less often than a druid wears their batsuit
This is not true. There is a post somewhere, which I can not remember now, where a Dev(I think it was Mike Brock, but I could be wrong) anyway... They used the example of flight and qualifying for fly-by attack. If you could gain flying, and it lasted longer than 24 hours, you count. If not, you do not.
You must not have reread the post. SKR makes no mention of a 24 hour breakpoint.
So, as written, if your flight is always on (like several 15th-level sorcerer bloodlines) you qualify for those feats. If your flight is periodic (like the fly spell, alchemist wing discovery, or 9th-level celestial sorcerer wings of heaven bloodline ability), you don't qualify.
Emphasis mine. Skimming the Sorc bloodlines reveals several that just grant a fly speed at level 15 with no duration, via wings or just because. Hence, always on. If wild shape has any finite duration at all, even if the duration is greater than a day, it is not permanent.The attribute bonuses wild shape grants become permanent after 24 hours, but that's because there is a specific rule that says so, and that rule only applies to attribute bonuses.
(I do not subscribe to the idea that multiple uses of wild shape can be stacked into the same instance to increase duration, and will not run it that way at my table. Even if you could, the duration would be practically unlimited, but still not permanent. Unless someone has an official, explicit rule that proves me wrong, that's how I will continue to play it.)
I do still think it's a GM call, because the rule seems arbitrary enough to justify an exception.
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Okay, here's a scenario for you...
An Aasimar with a Con of 10 has a ring of Bear's Endurance we'll say. Gives her +4 Con. So, she wears it for 24 hours so she can take the Angelic Blood feat. Then at level 11 she takes Angel Wings. What happens when she removes her ring? Does she LOSE the wings, or they just become worthless?
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(Finally found the discussion I was looking for.)
During the ACG playtest, there was a dev clarification that you can take feats that you qualify for in specific situations. You simply can't use the feat outside of those situations:
From Brawler's discussion:
"A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites)."
This was in answer to the question about the class ability that says a Brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only while flurrying:
Question and SKR's answer"2 Does the Brawler's flurry allow the Brawler to take two weapon fighting feats such as two weapon rend?"
SKR: "As written, the brawler is treated as having TWF when using brawler's flurry (this may change in later development). So, she could use it as a prereq... but would only be able to use feats from later in the chain when she was using brawler's flurry, as that's the only time she actually has the feat."
There's nothing in the discussion that says this only applies to brawlers, so most GMs in my area took it as a precedent that you can take feats even if you only meet the prerequisites part of the time. How temporary these can be is up to the individual GM, however.
As far as your angel wings go...
You certainly can't use them when your Con drops below the threshold. But I think it would up to your GM whether the wings actually disappear.
(Finally found the discussion I was looking for.)
During the ACG playtest, there was a dev clarification that you can take feats that you qualify for in specific situations. You simply can't use the feat outside of those situations:From Brawler's discussion:
"A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites)."This was in answer to the question about the class ability that says a Brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only while flurrying:
Question and SKR's answer"2 Does the Brawler's flurry allow the Brawler to take two weapon fighting feats such as two weapon rend?"
SKR: "As written, the brawler is treated as having TWF when using brawler's flurry (this may change in later development). So, she could use it as a prereq... but would only be able to use feats from later in the chain when she was using brawler's flurry, as that's the only time she actually has the feat."There's nothing in the discussion that says this only applies to brawlers, so most GMs in my area took it as a precedent that you can take feats even if you only meet the prerequisites part of the time. How temporary these can be is up to the individual GM, however.
As far as your angel wings go...
You certainly can't use them when your Con drops below the threshold. But I think it would up to your GM whether the wings actually disappear.
Great find! Happy to have been wrong about this one.
I vote the wings blacken, shrivel up, and fall off, just for dramatic effect.
(Finally found the discussion I was looking for.)
During the ACG playtest, there was a dev clarification that you can take feats that you qualify for in specific situations. You simply can't use the feat outside of those situations:From Brawler's discussion:
"A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites)."This was in answer to the question about the class ability that says a Brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only while flurrying:
Question and SKR's answer"2 Does the Brawler's flurry allow the Brawler to take two weapon fighting feats such as two weapon rend?"
SKR: "As written, the brawler is treated as having TWF when using brawler's flurry (this may change in later development). So, she could use it as a prereq... but would only be able to use feats from later in the chain when she was using brawler's flurry, as that's the only time she actually has the feat."There's nothing in the discussion that says this only applies to brawlers, so most GMs in my area took it as a precedent that you can take feats even if you only meet the prerequisites part of the time. How temporary these can be is up to the individual GM, however.
As far as your angel wings go...
You certainly can't use them when your Con drops below the threshold. But I think it would up to your GM whether the wings actually disappear.
I thought I remembered something to this effect, which is why I posted what I did earlier. Thanks for finding this to reinforce the position.
Okay, here's a scenario for you...
An Aasimar with a Con of 10 has a ring of Bear's Endurance we'll say. Gives her +4 Con. So, she wears it for 24 hours so she can take the Angelic Blood feat. Then at level 11 she takes Angel Wings. What happens when she removes her ring? Does she LOSE the wings, or they just become worthless?
The latter, you simply don't have the stamina to fly,so your wings simply become dead weight. I'd probably also impose a penalty on acrobatic checks, like a -2.
I strongly dislike how we have to come to rules conclusions based on tracking down "unofficial comments" in the forums. This thread is a perfect example of this.
You don't have to. In fact, you're not SUPPOSED to. The dev team has said repeatedly that forum posts by devs are NOT meant to be taken as proper rules clarifications. At best, they suggest RAI. They do not override FAQ or Errata, or even basic rules text.
A good example being the Titan Mauler Barbarian. The dev for that archetype said "Yeah they can wield weapons larger than their size would normally allow (like a Large/Huge/Gargantuan Greatsword)."
The archetype does not have this ability in print, and in fact specifically disallows it. Several FAQs contradict previous statements by devs as well. Flurrying with a single weapon is a good example there.
Is it really that hard to get a couple of these made into official FAQs each week?
It's not, no. Though apparently there's some sort of process that has to be followed (all PDT members have to be in the office and have time for a meeting being the biggest one).
That's why there's a FAQ every Friday (sometimes multiple), bar some off weeks due to various reasons, and has been for the past year or so.
Pathfinder Design Team profile (posts). Generally easiest to just keep an eye on that instead of regularly checking the FAQ page IME.
That's one of the major changes that came with SKR leaving and Mark Seifter taking his place.
It is far, far better for everyone's sanity and temper to simply disregard ALL posts made by Paizo staff in regards to rules, except where it may suggest a convenient houserule for you to use in your own game. It should never be taken as Word of God on some mechanic unless it becomes a FAQ or Errata.
I don't have a goblinoid in this fight, but is that SKR post from before or after the "forum posts are not official rulings" policy went into effect?
After, but even if it was before those ruling no longer are official. With that said as a person that helped design the game I would say he knows what he is talking about. With that aside permanent and temporary scores are not treated the same in all cases.
Temporary bonuses to ability points do not actually increase your score. Permanent ones do. <---This is in the book.
You need to actually have the score needed to qualify for a feat. Nothing in the book says you can take the feat without actually having the score.