Undead with Pounce


Rules Questions


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Quick question for all of you,

I am currently running a gestalted undead Lord Cleric/Inquisitor

I chose a Fast zombie leopard at Lv 6 as my corpse companion.

Does the Zombie leopard still have pounce?

The only reasoning I can see from it retaining it is the following:

Skeleton Megaraptor

Which is a Megaraptor that has been added with the skeleton template.
It lists Pounce as a special attack.

But both the zombie and skeleton template say that it looses any special attack,
"A skeleton/Zombie retains none of the base creature's special attacks."

however it keeps an Extraordinary abilities that aid with attacking?

" A skeleton/Zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains "any extraordinary special qualities" that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

Pounce is described as

"Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

It is also relevant to say that Most skeletal and Zombie versions of monsters still hold their "Grab" and "trip abilties" associated with their bites. And Grab is described as:

"Grab (Ex):If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking...etc"

I would really enjoy some input on this.
I have it written out as such:

Bast, The Fast Zombie Leopard

Sovereign Court

Isn't that module from the time when Paizo was a 3PP writing for D&D 3.5?

Not to say your reasoning is flawed, but the supporting evidence is a bit dated.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Isn't that module from the time when Paizo was a 3PP writing for D&D 3.5?

Not to say your reasoning is flawed, but the supporting evidence is a bit dated.

I had not taken that into account.

I wish there were more monsters with the zombie and skeletal templates to properly compare.


I know its silly but something about an undead with pounce ability just doesnt quite seem right!


Owlbear skeletons retain grab. Megaraptor skeletons retain pounce.

Yes, grab and pounce are retained when the creature is turned into a skeleton or zombie.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Owlbear skeletons retain grab. Megaraptor skeletons retain pounce.

Yes, grab and pounce are retained when the creature is turned into a skeleton or zombie.

As has been stated above, these are from 3.5 material.


Harleequin wrote:
I know its silly but something about an undead with pounce ability just doesnt quite seem right!

Usually zombies stagger around.

Fast zombies specifically get faster because they are created with haste.

Skeletons have bonuses to dex, and even have improved initiative because of their cunning.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Owlbear skeletons retain grab. Megaraptor skeletons retain pounce.

Yes, grab and pounce are retained when the creature is turned into a skeleton or zombie.

As has been stated above, these are from 3.5 material.

Well what about a 2014 source?

The zombie crocodile retains its grab ability

Zombie, Crocodile


The owlbear is from a Pathfinder source.


Also, the rules in D&D for this particular question are exactly the same, so there is no difference in this case.

Grand Lodge

Just look at the zombie template. It tells what it keeps and what it doesn't.

Paizo PRD zombie template

From that no, it doesn't keep pounce since pounce is a special attack, and Fast Zombie template doesn't add it back.

Skeleton is the same, they both do retain extraordinary special qualities that improve offense or defense (like grab)


I believe Kintrik is correct about Pounce. The only questionable part is whether or not the undead retains Grab. It is self-described as a Special Attack, but doesn't usually appear in that list on a monster's description. I suspect though, that the section isn't meant to be exhaustive, merely listing Special Attacks aren't automatically activated in a basic attack. I also think I've seen creatures where Grab *is* listed under Special Attacks.


Undead having pounce is not an issue, but something like a zombie or skeleton which may have certain things removed is a different story.


Given the complete lack of purposeful and formally defined distinction between "Special Attack" and "Special Quality", I think it goes straight to "does this make sense" judgment call.

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