Misandrists in the setting?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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George Kastanza. Lashunta icon of beauty...


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

For the record, just because my post is getting quoted a lot there, I don't think matriarchal means misandrist inherently.

I think matriarchal + Evil generally does, though.

#notallevilcreatures

We kobolds don't have these silly gender divides. We support male kobolds' rights to be spiritual leaders and hatchling watchers should they so choose, as well as female kobolds' rights to be chieftains, warriors, and trapbuilders. Kobolds who don't identify as either gender are free to choose whichever duties they are best-suited for (kobolds don't have gendered pronouns—we pretty much just call everyone "Hey, you"). Perfect equality has been achieved by the glorious kobold culture for all good kobolds within it.

They all die at roughly the same rate.

Some die at more same rates than others.

Just like us Hobgoblins. We only pay attention to gender for purposes of reproduction, quite easy considering our lack of positive emotion. We only discriminate against incompetence. That normally means death but, much better than goblins and bugbears anyways, and technically more progressive than other places. #HobgoblinIsBestGoblin, and #LawfulEvilIsBestEvil


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Mavrickindigo wrote:

Also, that shortpacked comic made me think of this image in rebuttal to it

http://i.imgur.com/an49Sr9.jpg

I like this one, but then, I do like bizarre adventures.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Erastil was once seen as misogynist.

To be frank, it was an overblown misconception whose only basis it's proponents gave was his preferences for families based on marriage.

It's not much different than the dogged determination to impugn misandry because Golarion does not follow the Earth model of male-dominated societies.

Concerning Erastil, I believe there was some actual text in books that did clearly describe him as sexist bordering on misogynist. And the many arguments from the threads I read clearly came from the people who felt that a god holding this kind of viewpoint could not be Good.

I am not clear about what impugn means. I feel that I am missing an important nuance here. If you can elaborate on this point I would greatly appreciate it :-)

If you find that text, I'd be happy to see it. I haven't in any of the published entries about it. The ONLY text I've ever read where Erastil was described as being a misogynist, came from posters on this board, and the sole predication for that was his stated preference for male/female marriage as a foundation for building communities, which posters kept tending to map into present day extremist Christian Fundamentalist paradigms.

Impugn is not the best word I could have chosen. But because many people can only see a binary relationship between two people where one is primary, and the other subordinate, they can't relate to a vision of male/female equality. It's essentially why the Greeks invented the myth of the Amazon, for them if Men were not enslaving women, it would be women enslaving men. They were incapable of seeing male/female relationships in any other way. And the Greeks were not short of misogynist traditions. They're wonderfully lampshaded in the Graphic Novel, Epicurus the Sage.

"He kept her in a dark room sealed from all contact. What more can a father do for his daughter?"

The Greeks had no shortage of misogynist traditions. Women who attempted to compete in, or even attend the Olympics by disguising themselves as boys were thrown off cliffs if caught. They made an exception for one mother who forgetting herself, ran out to the field to hug her son, but that was because he had just won the decathalon. (They then solved that problem by requiring all atheletes to compete in the buff.)

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
If you find that text, I'd be happy to see it. I haven't in any of the published entries about it. The ONLY text I've ever read where Erastil was described as being a misogynist, came from posters on this board, and the sole predication for that was his stated preference for male/female marriage as a foundation for building communities, which posters kept tending to map into present day extremist Christian Fundamentalist paradigms.

This is the most likely passage:

Rivers Run Red, page 67 wrote:

He believes the strength of a man’s will makes

him the center of a household, and while women can be
strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,
as their role is to look after the house and raise strong
children (consequently, there are few female priests in
his church). Independent-minded women, he believes,
can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry
them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother
command their attention.

That's some... rather particular language, there. Misogyny seems like a pretty decent word for it.

That said, as a reminder to everyone, this is no longer canon. It's as dead as a jingasa granting a luck bonus.

Liberty's Edge

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SKR wrote that article mentioned above and commented on it on the boards

**********

Sean K Reynolds

**********
cappadocius wrote:
Because old fashioned gods of old-fashioned societies, such as those that rely on family farms and hunting, tend to reflect those societies, which are themselves male chauvinist? I personally object to Erastil's viewpoints on gender relations, but I don't see why one would object to his very existence, as there are plenty of religions, current and historical, that subscribe to such a view.

********
I agree 100% with everything you said here. And I wrote the article you're talking about. The above was actually my intent. Erastil's old. He's conservative. He's set in his ways. You'll notice the seeds of this are in his Gods and Magic writeup, and you can see hints of it in his campaign setting writeup, too.

**********

So, not canon anymore, but you can easily see why that idea gained so much traction (though mostly from people who felt offended by it and opposed it)

Silver Crusade Contributor

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You may wish to link to the thread where those things were said, just to be sure. ^_^


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Alleran wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:

Also, that shortpacked comic made me think of this image in rebuttal to it

http://i.imgur.com/an49Sr9.jpg
I like this one, but then, I do like bizarre adventures.

I like the image swap out (Gio *is* hot), but I also remember waaay too much complaining about 'anime pretty boys' in my day for the last panel to fit.

Japanese media does do more to appeal to women than most US stuff, and there's a number of shows that are big successes specifically due to tapping both audiences (Macross was an early such success. Code Geass tapped a big shoujo manga group for the character designs. A lot of sports-series go for that tact and will have, like gratuitous male-taking-off-shirt scenes. Etc.).

Liberty's Edge

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Kalindlara wrote:
You may wish to link to the thread where those things were said, just to be sure. ^_^

Here it is

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l078?Why-is-Erastil-sexist#7

Sorry for not putting up a link. It is pretty hard to do so from my phone


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Kalindlara wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
If you find that text, I'd be happy to see it. I haven't in any of the published entries about it. The ONLY text I've ever read where Erastil was described as being a misogynist, came from posters on this board, and the sole predication for that was his stated preference for male/female marriage as a foundation for building communities, which posters kept tending to map into present day extremist Christian Fundamentalist paradigms.

This is the most likely passage:

Rivers Run Red, page 67 wrote:

He believes the strength of a man’s will makes

him the center of a household, and while women can be
strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,
as their role is to look after the house and raise strong
children (consequently, there are few female priests in
his church). Independent-minded women, he believes,
can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry
them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother
command their attention.

That's some... rather particular language, there. Misogyny seems like a pretty decent word for it.

That said, as a reminder to everyone, this is no longer canon. It's as dead as a jingasa granting a luck bonus.

As literally taken, it's definitely strongly Chauvinistic, which is not quite the same as misogynist which you can't conclude without further context. It's also considerably out of place in a frontier settlement, as women had to be ready to defend themselves and their children while their husbands were away.

My information on Erastil is based on his Inner Sea Gods text which has no sign of anything even close to it.


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xeose4 wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lashunta are the exact same deal—hot women because "sex sells", ugly men because nobody wants to see attractive men. This is why I don't take the "sex sells" defense super seriously—most of the time, it's a one-way street.
I agree. While I do appreciate the deliberateness in making the Lashunta men not... total garbage... I do really struggle with the fact that they turned out they way they did in the first place. In some ways I wish that the lashunta had no males, and the lashunta women could be dismissed as simply another male fantasy, rather than this half-step that sometimes seems to lampshade them instead of letting it get called out for what it is. I mean, in some ways it's better than the stereotypical fantasy races because the devs are therefore challenged to justify how it's NOT sexist... but I don't know. In many ways it feels like more of the same, except worse, because while I can pretend that my orc women are just as brutish as the men, or that my male halfling is super handsome, lashunta lore makes it pretty explicit that it's just not possible to have that sort of character. Not because of the stats, but because the sexual dimorphism is so extreme in the opposite directions.

Distant Worlds is among other things where Paizo was detetermined to get their ER Burroughs out. However, the Lashunta are definitely toned down in their sexual dimorphism compared to the original material. I've seen drawings of Lashunta males and I'm not seeing anything as extreme as the ape-men originals of Burroughs fame. Not to mention the fact that the text goes to lengths to show that the Lashunta males occupy important roles in their society.


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How is a god who prefers a traditional male/female procreation family life a bad thing, if the setting is chock full of sexually liberated deoties already? Its not like it is 3vil for an agrarian society to want a lot of farmhand children or anythibg right?

Project Manager

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Mavrickindigo wrote:
How is a god who prefers a traditional male/female procreation family life a bad thing, if the setting is chock full of sexually liberated deoties already? Its not like it is 3vil for an agrarian society to want a lot of farmhand children or anythibg right?

It's wrong to restrict what people can do and be in their life purely on the basis of their gender.

And yes, saying that men get to put themselves first and live lives of relative freedom and adventure while women must remain home and devote themselves to others is misogynist.

If Erastil were simply encouraging all of his worshippers to settle down and have kids, that'd be one thing (and that's the direction we went). But saying that the man is supposed to be the head of the household purely because he's male, and that men can be adventurers while women need to stay home and raise the kids is wrong.

Also, as we keep pointing out, the abuse and confinement of women based on their gender may be "traditional" in the real world, but it isn't in Golarion.

When Sean wrote up Erastil, he misrepresented what "traditional" means in Golarion. Erastil's approach to gender isn't any more traditional than Arshea's (and may be less so, given that angels and some other ancient outsiders who predate humanity don't have a gender).


While we're on the subject of the Lashunta, does anyone remember the Batrean Women/Men of Talislanta fame? Now there's major dimorphism for you.

Liberty's Edge

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Jessica Price wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:
How is a god who prefers a traditional male/female procreation family life a bad thing, if the setting is chock full of sexually liberated deoties already? Its not like it is 3vil for an agrarian society to want a lot of farmhand children or anythibg right?

It's wrong to restrict what people can do and be in their life purely on the basis of their gender.

And yes, saying that men get to put themselves first and live lives of relative freedom and adventure while women must remain home and devote themselves to others is misogynist.

If Erastil were simply encouraging all of his worshippers to settle down and have kids, that'd be one thing (and that's the direction we went). But saying that the man is supposed to be the head of the household purely because he's male, and that men can be adventurers while women need to stay home and raise the kids is wrong.

Also, as we keep pointing out, the abuse and confinement of women based on their gender may be "traditional" in the real world, but it isn't in Golarion.

When Sean wrote up Erastil, he misrepresented what "traditional" means in Golarion. Erastil's approach to gender isn't any more traditional than Arshea's (and may be less so, given that angels and some other ancient outsiders who predate humanity don't have a gender).

I think that depicting Erastil as old fashioned, traditional and very stubborn is a very interesting take on a LG deity. The problem was that the philosophy that was defended, being misogynist, was definitely not something a LG deity would adhere to

Project Manager

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The Raven Black wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:
How is a god who prefers a traditional male/female procreation family life a bad thing, if the setting is chock full of sexually liberated deoties already? Its not like it is 3vil for an agrarian society to want a lot of farmhand children or anythibg right?

It's wrong to restrict what people can do and be in their life purely on the basis of their gender.

And yes, saying that men get to put themselves first and live lives of relative freedom and adventure while women must remain home and devote themselves to others is misogynist.

If Erastil were simply encouraging all of his worshippers to settle down and have kids, that'd be one thing (and that's the direction we went). But saying that the man is supposed to be the head of the household purely because he's male, and that men can be adventurers while women need to stay home and raise the kids is wrong.

Also, as we keep pointing out, the abuse and confinement of women based on their gender may be "traditional" in the real world, but it isn't in Golarion.

When Sean wrote up Erastil, he misrepresented what "traditional" means in Golarion. Erastil's approach to gender isn't any more traditional than Arshea's (and may be less so, given that angels and some other ancient outsiders who predate humanity don't have a gender).

I think that depicting Erastil as old fashioned, traditional and very stubborn is a very interesting take on a LG deity. The problem was that the philosophy that was defended, being misogynist, was definitely not something a LG deity would adhere to

Absolutely. Nothing wrong with him being stubborn and old fashioned. But the fashions of old in Golarion and Earth aren't the same.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Mavrickindigo wrote:
How is a god who prefers a traditional male/female procreation family life a bad thing, if the setting is chock full of sexually liberated deoties already? Its not like it is 3vil for an agrarian society to want a lot of farmhand children or anythibg right?

It's wrong for all the ways Jessica listed above, but added to that it's wrong in that it goes against the original author/creator's intent for Erastil in the first place. Which would be me. Erastil was one of several deities I created decades ago for my homebrew setting, and who had PAGES of content written for him years before Paizo even existed. Had I the time, I would have loved to have been the one to write up his original deity article in Pathfinder AP, along with all the other deities I originally created (such as Desna, Sarenrae, Abadar, Urgathoa, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, Gorum, Gozreh, and many more), but as it turned out, working on the adventure parts of the Adventure Paths really left me with no time to take on an additional amount of articles.

So we hired Sean to write them, and I gave him my notes for each of the deities I'd created and he built them into full articles from there. And part of that was adding additional content to fill the articles up to work with Pathfinder and Golarion.

The vast majority of his additions improved the deities, and were logical outflows of my original design work and intent for the deities, but in a few cases, the results were way way way off-base.

Erastil was always intended from the start (by which I mean decades ago when I first created him) to be a GOOD deity of small-town community and hunting and family and agriculture, and as such he was always intended to show that goodness by being welcoming of all genders and sexualities and race and ethnicity and all that. He was never intended to go in the direction Sean took him, and unfortunately that direction slipped through the cracks (since I didn't at the time have the time to personally develop and fact-check every article that went into Pathfinder, including Sean's deity articles, which at that point I had not had any problems with whatsoever). The fact that he went away from my original vision and intent as the creator of many of these deities and as the Creative Director of the entire game was compounded by the fact that it happened back-to-back, with the Erastil article AND the Asmodeus article, both of which went through to print without me reading them in detail and approving them. By the time I'd heard what happened with the Asmodeus article, it was in print and the Erastil article was already at the printer, so it was too late to change anything even if I'd noticed.

As a result, I took a MUCH stronger look at the deity articles going forward, and provided Sean with much more advice and direction on the deities starting with Serpent's Skull.

But, just as if we'd published a version of the Toughness feat that accidentally said "You gain 30 hp at first level" when we'd intended to print "you gain 3 hp at first level," what happened with the Erastil article was nothing more than an error in content. It's no different from a rules error or a typo with a missing period on one level... but on another it's several orders of magnitude MORE frustrating and destructive as an error because it not only appeared in a product we would probably never reprint (and thus never have a chance to correct) but because it was an error in world content and flavor, which folks for some reason seem to think should never be changed. It's a weird double standard—the same group of people who yell at us for messing up a stat block's math also yell at us when we try to fix an actual error in flavor text. It's incredibly frustrating to have to deal with that double standard.

In any event, when we finally started work on Inner Sea Gods, that was the perfect (and only) chance for us to fix errors like this, and as such, what is written about Erastil in that book is the actual Erastil.


The Raven Black wrote:


I think that depicting Erastil as old fashioned, traditional and very stubborn is a very interesting take on a LG deity. The problem was that the philosophy that was defended, being misogynist, was definitely not something a LG deity would adhere to

Any lawful or even Chaotic deity is going to vary away from a perfect good somehow.

Iomadae's church is working with/tolerated by cheliax (and you know, slavery)

Desna's carelessness and thoughtlessness led her to release gulander

Calden Cayden's worship can lead to alchoholism and all the problems that go along with being black out drunk

Torag is.. lets say a little harsh on orcs and leave it at that.

No. Its not right to try to force people into a role that they, individually, do not want to take up, but its not any more messed up than what the other good gods are doing.

Project Manager

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


I think that depicting Erastil as old fashioned, traditional and very stubborn is a very interesting take on a LG deity. The problem was that the philosophy that was defended, being misogynist, was definitely not something a LG deity would adhere to

Any lawful or even Chaotic deity is going to vary away from a perfect good somehow.

Iomadae's church is working with/tolerated by cheliax (and you know, slavery)

Desna's carelessness and thoughtlessness led her to release gulander

Calden Cayden's worship can lead to alchoholism and all the problems that go along with being black out drunk

Torag is.. lets say a little harsh on orcs and leave it at that.

No. Its not right to try to force people into a role that they, individually, do not want to take up, but its not any more messed up than what the other good gods are doing.

Balderdash. These are all EFFECTS, not INTENT. Iomedae's church works with Cheliax. Desna's carelessness resulted in her releasing Ghlaunder. Cayden Cailean's worship CAN lead to alcoholism.

Good intent isn't magic, but that doesn't excuse bad intent.

Erastil, as Sean described him, STARTED OUT by intending to harm women, and the harm was there for all women over whom his followers had power. Not as an accident, not sometimes.


If that is the case, how would he ever have been Lawful Good to begin with?

Project Manager

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Icyshadow wrote:
If that is the case, how would he ever have been Lawful Good to begin with?

As described initially, he wasn't. As James just said, it was an error to describe a LG deity in that way.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with Crane Wing errata or Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I also know why, but it still amazes and frustrates me.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
As literally taken, it's definitely strongly Chauvinistic, which is not quite the same as misogynist which you can't conclude without further context.

Interesting. What is the relevant difference, and how does it redeem the quoted passage?

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
It's also considerably out of place in a frontier settlement, as women had to be ready to defend themselves and their children while their husbands were away.

Correct. That's why it got fixed.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
My information on Erastil is based on his Inner Sea Gods text which has no sign of anything even close to it.

Very good. This is as it should be.

However, you asked for a published source, and you got one. You claimed people made up the problem with Erastil out of nowhere, and I showed you the relevant passage. Also, for historical reference - most of the arguments about this predate Inner Sea Gods. So claiming that it should have changed peoples' opinion is kind of a hard sell.

Apologies to Mr. Jacobs. I know you hate seeing this come up. :/

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Jessica Price wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
If that is the case, how would he ever have been Lawful Good to begin with?
As described initially, he wasn't. As James just said, it was an error to describe a LG deity in that way.

This. Jessica just summed up my post perfectly in two sentences.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with Crane Wing errata or Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

This.

I hate even seeing the topic come up. :(


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Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

For starters, it would mean being in favour of the very institution of marriage. Unlike the other deities, who don't really care what form your relationship follows. Well, Asmodeus and Abadar kind of do, but all the not-Good reasons.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?


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James Jacobs wrote:
It's a weird double standard—the same group of people who yell at us for messing up a stat block's math also yell at us when we try to fix an actual error in flavor text. It's incredibly frustrating to have to deal with that double standard.

A typo in the math or something is very different from a full description of a deity. The first is a mistake the second one pretty much reflects the author takes on the deity.

You guys, of course, have the right to retcon anything you don't like, I just wanted to point out what there is no double standard from the fanbase.

Silver Crusade

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thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, as it is rather quite simple ^w^

They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.


Gorbacz wrote:


For starters, it would mean being in favour of the very institution of marriage. Unlike the other deities, who don't really care what form your relationship follows. Well, Asmodeus and Abadar kind of do, but all the not-Good reasons.

It isn't a very defining feature in a game where you have to explain to a player that most deities aren't like us, or medieval europe, or whatever, but this one kind of is.


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Rysky wrote:


They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

and their traditions are.....?

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:


They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

and their traditions are.....?

Read up on em, I hear Paizo makes a couple books about that world of theirs :3

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


For starters, it would mean being in favour of the very institution of marriage. Unlike the other deities, who don't really care what form your relationship follows. Well, Asmodeus and Abadar kind of do, but all the not-Good reasons.

It isn't a very defining feature in a game where you have to explain to a player that most deities aren't like us, or medieval europe, or whatever, but this one kind of is.

I don't know where you hail from, but over here in the Godless United Communist Ripubliks of Yurp, marriage is dying. So explaining Erastil as that odd guy who still thinks that wedding rings and white dresses matter makes perfect sense. He's the guy who mumbles about how all these informal ties and open relationships are not what the Founding Fathers would approve.


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Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, as it is rather quite simple ^w^

They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

Yeah, that doesn't really help. It's tautologically true, but why use the term then, it doesn't tell us anything. Describe the actual beliefs instead.


Gorbacz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


For starters, it would mean being in favour of the very institution of marriage. Unlike the other deities, who don't really care what form your relationship follows. Well, Asmodeus and Abadar kind of do, but all the not-Good reasons.

It isn't a very defining feature in a game where you have to explain to a player that most deities aren't like us, or medieval europe, or whatever, but this one kind of is.
I don't know where you hail from, but over here in the Godless United Communist Ripubliks of Yurp, marriage is dying. So explaining Erastil as that odd guy who still thinks that wedding rings and white dresses matter makes perfect sense. He's the guy who mumbles about how all these informal ties and open relationships are not what the Founding Fathers would approve.

But is that actually a change that's going on in Golarion? In which parts of Golarion?

That change in the real world is tied deeply into changing gender roles, which aren't changing in Golarion.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mavrickindigo wrote:

From what I could tell, there are indeed sexualized males in Pathfinder products. Off the top of my head, there is the Veela from one of the Bestiaries, which shows a male version of the race instead of the female version. They also had the "Blacksmith's Son" in the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game to be an alternative to the "Shopkeeper's Daughter".

Also, that shortpacked comic made me think of this image in rebuttal to it
http://i.imgur.com/an49Sr9.jpg

Don't know how much this adds/detracts from the discussion, but I've always wanted to see someone point out the flaws in the argument.

You might want to read the whole article Jessica posted.

The romance covers posted actually are quite close to the examples of sexualized male characters listed in the article.

First, most of them are moderately muscular and well toned rather than "impossibly muscled hulks."

Second, you've got posing - the difference between this power-expressing image and this sexualized image or even better this one. The men on romance novel covers are generally not posed powerfully. Several of them are leaning back (displaying their chests) and/or submissively averting their gaze.

Finally, some of the mens' heads on the covers are cropped off. That's dismemberment, a form of objectification.

Silver Crusade

thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, as it is rather quite simple ^w^

They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

Yeah, that doesn't really help. It's tautologically true, but why use the term then, it doesn't tell us anything. Describe the actual beliefs instead.

How does it not?

Erastil is a LG God of Traditions from where they formed and stood, NOT a LG God of traditions from White-Eurocentric Earth.

The beliefs are different for each culture on Golarion.


Weirdo wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:

From what I could tell, there are indeed sexualized males in Pathfinder products. Off the top of my head, there is the Veela from one of the Bestiaries, which shows a male version of the race instead of the female version. They also had the "Blacksmith's Son" in the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game to be an alternative to the "Shopkeeper's Daughter".

Also, that shortpacked comic made me think of this image in rebuttal to it
http://i.imgur.com/an49Sr9.jpg

Don't know how much this adds/detracts from the discussion, but I've always wanted to see someone point out the flaws in the argument.

You might want to read the whole article Jessica posted.

The romance covers posted actually are quite close to the examples of sexualized male characters listed in the article.

First, most of them are moderately muscular and well toned rather than "impossibly muscled hulks."

Second, you've got posing - the difference between this power-expressing image and this sexualized image or even better this one. The men on romance novel covers are generally not posed powerfully. Several of them are leaning back (displaying their chests) and/or submissively averting their gaze.

And then, just for contrast, there's this.

Silver Crusade

Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:


They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

and their traditions are.....?

Read up on em, I hear Paizo makes a couple books about that world of theirs :3

Seeing as how my snarky vagueness was, well, vague, this is what I meant:

Erastil isn't a god governing one set of traditions in one specific country. He's a primordial deity spanning the universe and all the traditions therein. For Golarion they've produced numerous setting books about different countries detailing their traditions and culture, go there and read up on them if you want to know about specific traditions.


Rysky wrote:
How does it not?

Because as far as I know, we do not have a history of Golarion complete enough to include views of marriage 500, 1,000, or 10,000 years ago (or however long it would take for something to be traditional in a world with immortal deities and thousand year old elves)


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Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, as it is rather quite simple ^w^

They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

Yeah, that doesn't really help. It's tautologically true, but why use the term then, it doesn't tell us anything. Describe the actual beliefs instead.

How does it not?

Erastil is a LG God of Traditions from where they formed and stood, NOT a LG God of traditions from White-Eurocentric Earth.

The beliefs are different for each culture on Golarion.

So the actual beliefs are different everywhere? Erastil is actually in favor of whatever the old customs of whatever culture you happen to be from? Interesting, but seems very Chaotic to me, since the beliefs will shift radically from one place to the next. There isn't actually anything that Erastil stands for, except that the old ways were better. But if one culture adopts another's old ways, that's wrong for them.

What if your particular traditions aren't actually Lawful Good?

I don't think that's the intent. I certainly agree that he's not the God of traditions from White-Eurocentric Earth, but that leaves the question open of what he actually supports.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
How does it not?

Because as far as I know, we do not have a history of Golarion complete enough to include views of marriage 500, 1,000, or 10,000 years ago (or however long it would take for something to be traditional in a world with immortal deities and thousand year old elves)

No, but you have numerous setting books that do a very good job summarizing it.


Rysky wrote:


Erastil isn't a god governing one set of traditions in one specific country. He's a primordial deity spanning the universe and all the traditions therein.

Unlikely since surely there aretradition about marriage that are not LG, like for example a place where is "cool" for a husband to punish his woman.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how people learned to live with the Crane Wing errata or the Paladin smite team evil nerf but are on a fundamental level unable to process the Erastil fix.

No, hold on. I know why.

I really don't know what to give him as a personality without it.

What does a traditional view of marriage look like on Golarion, which has been more advanced on the issue than we are for millennium?

Does he still do the men go out into the woods to be eaten while the women stay at home to rear kids thing?

It is something of a hard question. What is "traditional" in a world where people and cultures are so very much not like our own past?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, as it is rather quite simple ^w^

They're traditional in that they follow THEIR traditions, not ours.

Yeah, that doesn't really help. It's tautologically true, but why use the term then, it doesn't tell us anything. Describe the actual beliefs instead.

How does it not?

Erastil is a LG God of Traditions from where they formed and stood, NOT a LG God of traditions from White-Eurocentric Earth.

The beliefs are different for each culture on Golarion.

So the actual beliefs are different everywhere? Erastil is actually in favor of whatever the old customs of whatever culture you happen to be from? Interesting, but seems very Chaotic to me, since the beliefs will shift radically from one place to the next. There isn't actually anything that Erastil stands for, except that the old ways were better. But if one culture adopts another's old ways, that's wrong for them.

What if your particular traditions aren't actually Lawful Good?

I don't think that's the intent. I certainly agree that he's not the God of traditions from White-Eurocentric Earth, but that leaves the question open of what he actually supports.

He's a God of Stability, which is why he's Lawful. Everyone changing their traditions he probably wouldn't like due to the upheaval such changes bring, but if they bring peace and happiness then he'd be okay with them.

He's not a God of "the old ways are better", he's the God of "the current harmonious ways are best". For instance he would certainly be against Evil traditions and is probably hoping for Evil countries to either go back to, or move forward into calm and safe times.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:


Erastil isn't a god governing one set of traditions in one specific country. He's a primordial deity spanning the universe and all the traditions therein.
Unlikely since surely there aretradition about marriage that are not LG, like for example a place where is "cool" for a husband to punish his woman.

Only supporting non-evil traditions was, I thought, a given.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:


I don't know where you hail from,

The part of the US where you can get decent pizza. :)


Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:


Erastil isn't a god governing one set of traditions in one specific country. He's a primordial deity spanning the universe and all the traditions therein.
Unlikely since surely there aretradition about marriage that are not LG, like for example a place where is "cool" for a husband to punish his woman.

If she was acting in an evil way and his punishment was in accordance with the laws and traditions of his society, why wouldn't that be LG behavior on the husband's part? It's just delegation of just punishment to the lowest possible level.

Project Manager

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Slithery D wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:


Erastil isn't a god governing one set of traditions in one specific country. He's a primordial deity spanning the universe and all the traditions therein.
Unlikely since surely there aretradition about marriage that are not LG, like for example a place where is "cool" for a husband to punish his woman.
If she was acting in an evil way and his punishment was in accordance with the laws and traditions of his society, why wouldn't that be LG behavior on the husband's part? It's just delegation of just punishment to the lowest possible level.

Because a society in which he has authority to punish her simply because he's the male partner in the marriage doesn't have a G in its alignment.

I know you guys really want to come up with a way in which restrictive gender roles/marriage inequality based on gender isn't evil, but you're not going to convince anyone who actually makes the game of that, so I'm not sure why you keep trying.

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