Because the dragon doesn't need to master the art of the backswing and rapidly moving his limbs back in forth in the span of 6 seconds.
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It can also slow down the table a lot. I had a primalist rageshaper bloodrager build and I only had 6 attacks--all naturally part of my build (well, the 6th was a bite attack that came with the skinwalker cloak that I had to have as a skinwalker). It's a lot of fun. But when you're rolling 7 attacks (haste) and each attack has between 2-5 damage dice, it quickly slows down the table.
My basic build was Abyssal Bloodrager, grab enlarge at 4, at 8 instead of bloodrager power get lesser and regular beast totem, at 12 get greater beast totem and boar charge (boar-kin skinwalker rage power to get a free crit if you charge and your gore hits). And I also made sure to have rhino charge by 12.
So at level 12 I could move and then ready a charge for "immediately" or "as soon as something is chargeable" or something like that. And then I'd hit for 6/7 natural attacks. I remember my claws were somewhere around 5d6 (3d6 due to their own advancement, size, and rageshaper, 1d6 acid from deliquescent gloves, 1d6 fire from themselves), plus another 1d6 from vinestrike usually.
Vinestrike when you have natural attacks is usually just an automatic success because it's very doubtful they're going to save against all of them.
Ok..Now that I've typed all that out..I'm just going to go ahead and post my feat progression because I'm looking at the character sheet now.
1) Extra Feature (extra skinwalker feature to always have gore and hooves) -- this means 5 nat attacks at level 1 from bloodrager claws
3) Improved Unarmed Strike (this started off as Multiattack but was later retrained so I could take Dragon Style - to charge through allies)
5) Arcane Strike (free damage)
6 Bonus Feat) Power Attack (didn't really use it much, but it's basically free damage as my str was 29 when large from raging and only a +2 str belt so to hit wasn't a problem any more)
7) Iron Will
9) Rhino Charge (can ready a charge)
11) Dragon Style (can charge through friends (and other stuff))
12) Toughness ('cause why not have an extra 12 hp when you've already got 174 (we rolled twice for health and took the better which results in above average hp))
So at level twelve when you get the greater beast totem you can ready a charge, charge through allies, charge through difficult terrain, and can pounce. For more fun, find a way to change into a monstrous humanoid with 4 arms so you can also use your beast totem claws in addition to your abyssal claws. Or just change into that big rhino dino thing with a huge gore attack so when you hit with it on a charge you get a crit. I went through a bunch of creatures (only stuff in the bestiaries, so none of that gargoyle nonsense) and picked out the best ones, but we only played one game at lvl 12 so I only temporarily had those notes. This was also before bestiary 5 so I'm curious if there's anything worthwhile in there for this..
1) Extra Feature (extra skinwalker feature to always have gore and hooves) -- this means 5 nat attacks at level 1 from bloodrager claws
3) Improved Unarmed Strike (this started off as Multiattack but was later retrained so I could take Dragon Style - to charge through allies)
5) Arcane Strike (free damage)
6 Bonus Feat) Power Attack (didn't really use it much, but it's basically free damage as my str was 29 when large from raging and only a +2 str belt so to hit wasn't a problem any more)
7) Iron Will
9) Rhino Charge (can ready a charge)
11) Dragon Style (can charge through friends (and other stuff))
12) Toughness ('cause why not have...
How do you get Rhino Charge without the pre-req Improved Bull Rush?
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How do you get Rhino Charge without the pre-req Improved Bull Rush?1) Extra Feature (extra skinwalker feature to always have gore and hooves) -- this means 5 nat attacks at level 1 from bloodrager claws
3) Improved Unarmed Strike (this started off as Multiattack but was later retrained so I could take Dragon Style - to charge through allies)
5) Arcane Strike (free damage)
6 Bonus Feat) Power Attack (didn't really use it much, but it's basically free damage as my str was 29 when large from raging and only a +2 str belt so to hit wasn't a problem any more)
7) Iron Will
9) Rhino Charge (can ready a charge)
11) Dragon Style (can charge through friends (and other stuff))
12) Toughness ('cause why not have...
Good question. Not that it should affect the build very much. He could just as easily not have taken dragon style, since charging through allies isn't as much of an issue with Rhino charge.
Ah, sorry, that's the 9th level bloodline feat. I just forgot to write that in above.
So, to specifically answer your questions.. I "get Rhino Charge without the pre-req Improved Bull Rush" by actually having Improved Bull Rush and just forgetting to write it in..
No worries. It would be awkward to steal a build idea if I knew it was built illegally. ;-)
I have issues with natural attacks on many levels. How is it that 2 consecutive swings from a sword is more difficult than a bite, wing buffet & tail slap from a dragon with multiattack (ignoring that it has 2 claws as well)? The dragon would have to basically turn around to have any kind of real threat with its tail, but two thrusts / slashes with one arm in a row is more challenging....
Actually, thought. What if additional natural attacks took the same penalty as additional iterative attacks? With the exception of things like claws / talons being "pairs" that have the same bab? What if, on top of that, you could do iterative attacks with natural attacks provided you only used a single one? That would prevent the absurdity that is 6 attacks at full bab (or 4 at full and 2 at -5), but give natural attackers more options from iteratives (and make single NA monsters more threatening).
So if the dragon follows what I've encountered in most lore its tail is almost prehensile in dexterity, and incredibly long, though this is unrealistic as reptilian tails are notoriously stiff. And I think the difficulty question can be resolved by twf, as each hand has the same chance to hit, until used a second time, which I think has to do with either A: the attack being hurrried, and B: No attack has been made from that limb yet that round and so their attention is focused elsewhere. But that is simply my opinion
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So while we're on the subject, I have to ask...
Say I make a Ranger. Natural Attack style for claws at 2. After that, I take a hard right down Alchemist Junction for a double helping of Extra Arm. If my four armed manbeast then takes Feral Mutagen, does that grant me a total of four claws and a bite?
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So while we're on the subject, I have to ask...
Say I make a Ranger. Natural Attack style for claws at 2. After that, I take a hard right down Alchemist Junction for a double helping of Extra Arm. If my four armed manbeast then takes Feral Mutagen, does that grant me a total of four claws and a bite?
No. Vestigial Arms don't give you any extra attacks.
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own "hand" and "ring" magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
You could have claws on all four arms, but that text would mean you could only use two each round.
If you want to be the "Lord of Natural Attacks," play a synthesis.
Another good option would be an aasimar barbarian or beastmorph alchemist.
Pick up metallic wings at mid-level for an extra pair of secondary attacks.
Demonic implants can give you two secondary natural attacks (brazen hooves) and a gore attack (crown of horns).
Demon Talon gives a claw attack at +1 size.
bite + 2x claw + 2x wings + 2x hooves + gore = 8 attacks/round.
Tengu Warpriest.
20pt buy
Str (12) Dex (18) Con (14) Int (7) Wis (16) Cha (7)
Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (claws)
Lvl 3: Weapon Focus (beak)
Eventually get a mithril breastplate. Get weapon specialization for your attacks for +3 damage (including strength).
By level 12, you have 3 attacks all hitting at full BaB (using Dex to hit). Each attack does 2d6+5 damage. Of course get amulet of mighty fists and the acid gloves.
Could run him as a cult leader warpriest. Lose the free weapon focus, but get +2 skill points (end up with 2 per level instead of 1) and sneak attack damage.
If you want to be the "Lord of Natural Attacks," play a synthesis.
Another good option would be an aasimar barbarian or beastmorph alchemist.
Pick up metallic wings at mid-level for an extra pair of secondary attacks.
Aasimar, yes. Synthesist summoner, debatable.
The synthesist will start faster, but is technically still limited by the Max. Attacks column for their eidolon.
A "better" option at high level play is aasimar summoner 1/ranger 2/summoner +17: take both Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast) and Rending Claws (as the Combat Style feat) at summoner 1/ranger 2, then use Aspect at summoner 10 to take Limbs (Arms) for a second set of fully functional arms (can be used to make extra attacks and/or qualify for Multiweapon Fighting), complete the Angelic Blood/Angelic Flesh*/Angel Wings/Metalic Wings feat chain, and then use Greater Aspect at summoner 18 to take six tentacles (again, fully functional for extra attacks); equipment choices include helm of the mammoth lord, talons of Leng, and wyvern's cloak. Total number of natural attacks: 14 (4 claws, 1 gore, 1 sting, 6 tentacles, 2 wings).
Plus they have their eidolon and/or summoned monsters to help out. This progression works with the master summoner archetype!
*- player's choice of whether fire resistance 5 (brazen), +2 on some saves and having natural attacks count as silver vs. DR (silver), or +1 natural armor and having natural attacks count as cold iron vs. DR (steel) is most desirable.
Throw in Toothy (half-orc racial trait snagged with Adopted) or Mother's Maw and you've got six. To get six, you'll also need the Extra Feature feat to get both hooves and a gore.I have serious problems with that. Ignoring the whole balance issue of 'having as many attacks as a TWF full attack', it breaks down on several levels when you try to imagine how it would actually work.
First- how do you learn to be toothy by being adopted? This has irked me ever since the surge of catfolk barbarians years ago. How do you learn how to grow 3 inch tusks?
You ever been bitten by a cat? Terrible.
Second- isn't a boar's gore attack already based off of teeth? This isn't the child of a were bull here. The gore is from the mouth. Not a problem rules wise (I...think- I am still unsure of the official 'head as limb' thing; I've seen conflicting info on that), but it still has me asking questions
I mean, I think they are separate mostly due to being used in different capacities. But I agree that it's a LITTLE weird.
Tengu Warpriest.
20pt buy
Str (12) Dex (18) Con (14) Int (7) Wis (16) Cha (7)Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (claws)
Lvl 3: Weapon Focus (beak)
Eventually get a mithril breastplate. Get weapon specialization for your attacks for +3 damage (including strength).By level 12, you have 3 attacks all hitting at full BaB (using Dex to hit). Each attack does 2d6+5 damage. Of course get amulet of mighty fists and the acid gloves.
Could run him as a cult leader warpriest. Lose the free weapon focus, but get +2 skill points (end up with 2 per level instead of 1) and sneak attack damage.
This sounds awesome! Totally going to try it.
Why not skip Weapon Finesse altogether though and make it a Strength build from the start? You're sure to get more damage output that way at higher levels.
Unless you have some means of getting Dexterity to damage in mind? (And even if you, why is that worth investing the resources into, when you can do just as well with a strength-build and investing those resources elsewhere?)
Just because Tengu get +2 Dex.
I suppose you could go...
Tengu Cult Leader Warpriest
Str16 (10pts)
Dex16 (5pts)
Con12 (5pts)
Int9 (-1pt)
Wis16 (5pts)
Cha7 (-4)
Traits: Armor Expert (-1 ACP) and Fate's Favored (swift cast divine favor and get an extra +1 hit and damage. Can also get +2 to all saving throws with war blessing)
+3 hit and damage, +3 AC and Reflex, +3 Will.
Only get light armor, but a Mithral Breastplate will have 0 ACP letting you wear it. Can also get a Masterwork Buckler for 0ACP (though it is -1 to hit with one attack. Worth it when you get a cheap +1 on the buckler.
Eventually grab the helm of the mammoth lord for 4 primary attacks (claw, claw, bite, gore). Each one can apply sneak attack damage.
You'll have 3 skill points per level to play with. I'd advise Stealth (high Dex and +2 from class), Perception and Diplomacy (even with the -2. You can get a 200 gold Ioun stone to make it only a -1 penalty). At Lvl 4 get +1 Int for knowledge religion.
+1 Mithral Breastplate (+7 AC), +1 Buckler (+2 AC), 16 Dex (+3 AC), +1 Ring and +1 Amulet equals a respectable 24AC. Throw a load of sneak attacking primary natural attacks, each doing a base of 1d6+, and you'll be looking pretty good! The only downside is low HP. But at Lvl 5 grab toughness to help with that.
Grumbaki, how did you get 2d6 base damage by level 12 in your previous post?
Is there some item or feat that increases the sacred weapon damage progression or something?
I made a mistake. Misremembered. Should be 1d10, 2d6 comes later. My apologies.
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Thought you'd like to see the complete build that you've inspired. (Note though that my play group uses 25-point buy characters.)
He averages 195 damage per round with divine power and sneak attack if all of his attacks land. His final attack routine would look something like this:
bite +23 (1d10+5d6+15), gore +23 (1d10+5d6+15), and 3 claws +23 (1d10+6d6+15)
...And that's before buffs from other spells, class abilities, or allies!
You ever been bitten by a cat? Terrible.
Yes, actually.
The bite damage was less than negligible (even though the cat practically did a dive bomb while doing the bite), but it had a nice disease effect that required the local cleric (emergency room doctor) to cast cure disease (shot an antibiotic into my rear).
Unfortunately, they tried to raise the tithes later after the fact in the..parchm.... ok, my metaphor is collapsing. They tried to raise my bill after the fact. Which lead to a rather nasty phone call.
Warpriests make them really interesting since they bump the damage dice up.That's a whole lot of weapon focus you'll be taking
I am a bit late with the answer, but: Martial Versatility handles this. It was introduced for human fighters, but a (half-)human warpriest 6 can take it also, as a bonus feat.
How do you all Feat up your natural attack builds? Just a lot of weapon focus + power attack?
Ravingdork: Awesome! Hope it works out well for you. I'm sure your GM's monsters will be sweating bullets when they see those claws. And unlike most Martians, your GM can't even say "leave your weapons at the door."
I have a question on Natural Attacks.
I am playing a Mooncursed Barbarian who chose the Tiger form, and currently have a Bite, Claw, Claw, Gore attack. (Using Lesser Fiend Totem to pick up Gore). I was wondering if I selected the Lesser Abyssal Blood which grants a pair of claw attacks, would that give me 4 claws? I am assuming that the first 2 claws would be on my front paws (or hands at 5th level), and the 2 set of claws would be on my back paws (or feet).
I realize I may be stretching this, but I do not see anything that strictly states you can only have 2 claws.
Most GMs I know would rule against 4 claws even though, technically, it should work.
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This is the only ruling I know of on claws on feet. Basically, absolutely not for bipeds, yes for quadrapeds (or more), but generally you need a special ability to use all of them. It doesn't explicitly forbid it for quadrapeds though.
Which is weird given that eidolons are specifically stated to be able to have claws on their legs (though only one set of legs).
Yes, but you still have the needless +5 total enhancement cap, when everything else has a +10.Amulet of Mighty Fists is a limitation in high level play. It only has a +5 total enhancement ceiling, and it costs double the amount of an equivalent weapon. Basically you are paying twice as much to get something half as effective as a weapon user. It also means if you decide to add agile, you'll never be able to have a +5 weapon to overcome all dr.Sure AOMF costs twice as much as a magic weapon, but you break even if you have 2 natural attacks and come out ahead if you have 3 or more.
Buying a weapon past +5 is super expensive, what level do YOU play at?
You can only make one natural attack with any appendage.
Gore and bite obviously cannot be combined except by creatures with more than one head.
If that's the case - why are there multiple creatures in the bestiaries which have both?
1 example - Bukavac in the SRD
That's not the SRD. Thats a third party site.
That's not the SRD. Thats a third party site.You can only make one natural attack with any appendage.
Gore and bite obviously cannot be combined except by creatures with more than one head.
If that's the case - why are there multiple creatures in the bestiaries which have both?
1 example - Bukavac in the SRD
That is the SRD (System Reference Document), and it is a 3rd party site. The Paizo site is called the PRD (Pathfinder Reference Document).
While it's correct that the Bukavac is a third party monster, the Gargoyle has both bite and gore in its attack routine and is definitely not. That was also brought up on the previous page, too.
Also Wereboars in hybrid form (from Bestiary 2).
And the Catoblepas (also from Bestiary 2).
And Imperial Dragons (from Bestiary 3).
And I can't find any rule stating that you can only have one natural attack per appendage/limb. In fact, it seems that you get additional natural attacks from any weaponized body parts.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
So having a gore attack and a bite should grant you two natural attacks.
Keep reading.You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
I have read that. You need to read the first part of that sentence.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
That sentence prevents you from making both a weapon attack and a natural attack with the same limb. I was discussing the case where you are only making natural attacks, so that line isn't applicable. if you have body parts that let you make a bite attack and other body parts that let you make a gore attack, I can't see any rules that forbid you from ever using both in the same round.