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I, for one, am sick of Paizo Devs setting a seemingly arbitrary price on the life of my character. I mean who are they to determine how much my character's life is worth?! I mean at least if it were a price adjusted by level it wouldn't appear so arbitrary! Are we going to put up with this kind of blatant player abuse?! Fight the power!
Actually Paizo did not set the prices and definitely there aren't arbitrary. Remember that core rulebook came from 3.5 and in 3.5 there was spells with XP cost, what Paizo did with Pathfinder was eliminate XP cost, so they made a conversion of 5GP per 1XP to all those spells (The equivalency of 5GP = 1XP also came from 3.5)
A diamond worth 25k that is sold to you for 20k is still a diamond worth 25k.Things are only worth what a person pays for them.
If it had been "worth" 25K, someone would have paid 25K. Since they had to discount the item to get it to sell, it was actually only worth 20K.
Value is not an absolute inherent characteristic of an item. It is a fluid, flexible abstraction given to it by human opinion.
Actually in Pathfinder items has an inherent absolute value, it is in the books, and for purposes of Material Components those are the values that matters.
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Make whole has no "unattended" caveat. Cast it on the bread in someone's belly, fill them with wheat.
If I cut an ice cube in half, does make whole restore it? Even if I only have one half of the ice cube? Can I do this twice to double my amounts of water? Can I freeze a flask of acid and cut it in half?
Actually, I guess bread, water and acid all count as 'single-use'. Damn.
Wait, does diamond count as 'single-use'? What if I explicitly intend to use it for a spell? What if I break a 20,000 gp diamond in half...
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Yah... diamond cost is one of those things that are so far removed into abstraction as to be expected to be a non-issue. That is why PFS specifically says that you just spend your gold and get the correct diamond each time.
The rule is sort of silly, the 'intrinsic' value thing is silly. So, any way of trying to mess with the system will end up being silly.
This is really one part of the game that is best to ignore and allow it to function as is or change completely for home games.
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I, for one, am sick of Paizo Devs setting a seemingly arbitrary price on the life of my character. I mean who are they to determine how much my character's life is worth?! I mean at least if it were a price adjusted by level it wouldn't appear so arbitrary! Are we going to put up with this kind of blatant player abuse?! Fight the power!Actually Paizo did not set the prices and definitely there aren't arbitrary. Remember that core rulebook came from 3.5 and in 3.5 there was spells with XP cost, what Paizo did with Pathfinder was eliminate XP cost, so they made a conversion of 5GP per 1XP to all those spells (The equivalency of 5GP = 1XP also came from 3.5)
A lot of those Paizo Devs used to work for WotC and some of them T$R before that! Its a conspiracy, I tell you! They just want your money. Er.... your character's money, I mean!
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you can throw a diamond more then once if you can find it you cant throw a ball of water more then once. but you can find it every time. make whole would require most if not all the pieces to work. make whole can not double your profit. if used on bread in belly does that mean you get to be full twice?
what Paizo did with Pathfinder was eliminate XP cost, The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is raised, seems your comment is false. lvls are exp. if i am 5th lvl and i die and come back i am 3rd but i still have to get 6th lvl exp to get to 4th lvl.
Incorrect. Your PC is still 5th level, but with 2 permanent negative levels. Permanent negative levels can be removed with several spells, starting with Restoration and working up from there.
Energy Drain and Negative Levels
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Relevant text bolded.
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This is why we dropped accounting for spell components years ago. It does not add to the fun of the game.
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Imagine if the cost of a spell was "Copper worth 5000gp".
Somehow, I think this might actually be more thematically appropriate than running off to find diamond(s).
So..., the idiot fighter bites the dust again (probably because of the party rogue) and now the survivors need to scrounge up 500,000 copper pieces to pay the Charon for the return trip across the river Styx.
Could you imagine how long it would take the surrounding economies to recover from the near complete lack of ready cash?
It would take years for that economy to recover, and at least several months and the local underlords having to call in favors to the dukes and earls to try and make up the budgetary shortfalls out of tax revenues.
All of the land is going to feel bear the brunt of the ritual sacrifice necessary to bring back that fighter, all because of it requiring 500,000 copper.
Not only that, but could you imagine how much the reputation of the former adventurers of renown would be changed? Sure they routed that hobgoblin war band, and clipped the wings of that young adult red dragon, but now they've prevented an extended family of serfs from buying a plot of land and buying themselves out of slavery. - Think the populace will look at them the same way again? Think that this party is going to be paid by any of the local lords for troubleshooting ever again after a stunt like this? (EDIT: How long do you think it will be before this party squares up the balance scales with the those in authority?)
I'm also forgetting just how much copper 500,000 coins is, exactly. That calculates to something like 10,300 pounds worth, and would require at least 7 type IV bags of holding just to cart it around to the site where they plan to cast the spell. Somehow I doubt the party has more than one, meaning they'll have to go acquire 6 more somehow just to bring the spell components to the same spot.
Or..., maybe realizing that horrible costs associated with all of this they decide to break into the hoard of a copper dragon, hoping they can keep him busy long enough resurrect their friend because they all get melted from an acidic breath weapon.
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OK, OK, I know I'm being a little facetious by this point, but I still think it's an interesting thought.
Anyway, in all seriousness, value has always been and will always be a sliding scale.
The whole point of the list prices in the book is to provide a frame of reference for relative value within Golarion. You could be adventuring on the elemental plane of earth, and now that "5,000gp" diamond in relative value could be dinner stolen from the king of the Xorn. (EDIT: I envision that diamond to be the size of a Volkswagen and cut brilliantly enough to outshine even the most arrogant paladin of the sun god.)
Whether or not diamond needs to be singular or whole doesn't even matter in that light. The only real measure is how difficult is the spell supposed to be in order to pull of in your setting. - If your party can afford to equip themselves with a bunch of +1 and +2 equipment, then they ought to be able to get access to a resurrection spell equally easily. - If it took six years of game time for the party to acquire a single +1 weapon, which turns out to be an artifact in this magic starved world, then resurrection ought to take 500,000 copper along with all of the difficulties that entails.
A cut larger diamond could certainly be a product. And it is the same material as smaller diamonds. I see no reason why fabricate would not work.
Gemcutting requires a high degree of craftsmanship, and thus would require a Craft check. But there is no Craft that allows you to cut smaller items into one larger one, or to fuse them together.
Here's a question for GMs: If I grind up a diamond worth 5000gp into dust, what is the value of the dust?
That's a really good question. It should certainly be worth less than 5000gp, but how much less?
This sort of thing should never happen, of course. As someone mentioned upthread, diamond dust would be produced from the chips left over after cutting the raw stone into a faceted gem.
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Here's a question for GMs: If I grind up a diamond worth 5000gp into dust, what is the value of the dust?That's a really good question. It should certainly be worth less than 5000gp, but how much less?
This sort of thing should never happen, of course. As someone mentioned upthread, diamond dust would be produced from the chips left over after cutting the raw stone into a faceted gem.
The actual answer is... if you grind a 5000gp diamond you get 5000gp worth of diamond dust.
Gems are a commodity in Pathfinder, a trade good, and as such they sell and buy for their exact value. Unlike other sellables which sell for half, by the book. They are not modified by cut or manipulation. It is only volume of material. Your GM may change this, as it makes sense to do so given a real world. Wheat may cost more or less due to fluctuations in supply and demand in the real world, gems increase in value when cut correctly.. but Pathfinder assigns an intrinsic value to gems just as it does to things like saffron or silk.
This intrinsic value matters mechanically because spells rely on the intrinsic value of objects, such as cost of a focus, to determine if you can cast the spell.
When you allow the cost of an item to be more or less than the intrinsic value of said item, you are modifying the balance of spells that rely on that item. More and less so if you make the amount bought by the new intrinsic value. It would keep the gems you buy in check with the spells. But that would preclude finding gems, since those are 'free' and would have 0 intrinsic worth.
Thus it is best to not do so, or do so completely with full knowledge of what you are doing.
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Here's a question for GMs: If I grind up a diamond worth 5000gp into dust, what is the value of the dust?That's a really good question. It should certainly be worth less than 5000gp, but how much less?
This sort of thing should never happen, of course. As someone mentioned upthread, diamond dust would be produced from the chips left over after cutting the raw stone into a faceted gem.
Debatable. Cost is such an arbitrary concept anyway.
Does a 5k diamond mean that their is 5,000gp in the diamond material present in that diamond, or does it reflect the quality or size or rarity of that material? If cut into a gem, does it decrease its value as a diamond, even if it increases in value as a gem?
Rarity is an important one to consider, as any item's value goes up if it is a scarcity for the region. Since price is a combination of what people are willing to pay and what people are willing to sell a thing at, a diamond's price could be enormous if a shrewd businessman has the only one in the area.
The big issue here is that spellcaster doesn't care how pretty the diamond is, merely that it is diamond and has a certain value. And on top of that, when they cast the spell, diamond disappears, which affects the market value of future diamonds, as you create further scarcity on the market.
I honestly find it doubtful that most a diamond's increase in value due to gemcutting, would affect the diamond's value for spell components. Though I guess it depends what the 5k refers to specifically. I would also imagine that diamonds are much more rare in the pathfinder setting, as spells are consuming them permanently.
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Here's a question for GMs: If I grind up a diamond worth 5000gp into dust, what is the value of the dust?That's a really good question. It should certainly be worth less than 5000gp, but how much less?
This sort of thing should never happen, of course. As someone mentioned upthread, diamond dust would be produced from the chips left over after cutting the raw stone into a faceted gem.
Debatable. Cost is such an arbitrary concept anyway.
Does a 5k diamond mean that their is 5,000gp in the diamond material present in that diamond, or does it reflect the quality or size or rarity of that material? If cut into a gem, does it decrease its value as a diamond, even if it increases in value as a gem?
Rarity is an important one to consider, as any item's value goes up if it is a scarcity for the region. Since price is a combination of what people are willing to pay and what people are willing to sell a thing at, a diamond's price could be enormous if a shrewd businessman has the only one in the area.
The big issue here is that spellcaster doesn't care how pretty the diamond is, merely that it is diamond and has a certain value. And on top of that, when they cast the spell, diamond disappears, which affects the market value of future diamonds, as you create further scarcity on the market.
I honestly find it doubtful that most a diamond's increase in value due to gemcutting, would affect the diamond's value for spell components. Though I guess it depends what the 5k refers to specifically. I would also imagine that diamonds are much more rare in the pathfinder setting, as spells are consuming them permanently.
I'll only address the first few paragraphs of this quickly... Pathfinder assumes there is no market fluctuations. It bases some forms of mechanical balance on this assumption. It also assumes things 'cost what they cost'. Thus, a 5k diamond is always a 5k diamond. There are no rules for manipulation and they are treated as trade goods.
Now, on the the last paragraph. Diamonds are not rare on Golarion. (They are not even rare on earth, only very large diamonds are rare. And that is only on the surface where they are easy to obtain. If Earth had access to earth elementals... well diamonds for everyone!) While we can pretend that gems take as long to make inside Golarion as they do on Earth.. which is not necessarily so due to temporary/permanent planar connections to the plane of earth happening in thematic places.
But, it is also incredibly easy and safe to go to the plane of Earth and harvest any amount of gems or materials you need. Given 9th level casting. Using Astral Projection and Gate, along with summoning earth elementals... you are infinitely rich. And you can not be killed while on the Earth elemental plane, due to how astral projection works.
You could also do this using lesser spells, but that would allow more danger to the caster. But, since it is a standard action to escape back to the material plane(as most any spell or ability you would use to do so would be) it is not extremely dangerous.
As the elemental plane of earth is a large plane that includes creatures that eat metal and gems... you can assume that it has a heavy supply of both and perhaps even spontaneously generates them, if not quickly or through some unknown process.
Really interesting discussion. Always thought you should need more value per level of the deceased.
For the sake of that poor player we just pay cash value, though I guess a mini adventure to find a diamond worthy of resurrection of a king could be fun
Main conclusion is English language is bonkers and players, and reviewers, shouldn't obsess with it so much!!