The Misdirection feat line is almost amazing, if only they didn't (1) require an immediate action and limit you to once per round, or (2) require fighting defensively, or (3) have such onerous feat and MAD requirements. Take away any one of these and it would be worth investing in, especially (1) or (2). As it is, kind of garbage.
The Misdirection feat line is almost amazing, if only they didn't (1) require an immediate action and limit you to once per round, or (2) require fighting defensively, or (3) have such onerous feat and MAD requirements. Take away any one of these and it would be worth investing in, especially (1) or (2). As it is, kind of garbage.
Especially weird is that it requires Combat Expertise, a feat whose benefits cannot be used with total defense.
If they switched it to work while using Combat Expertise I might take it on a Swashbuckler. If they let it trigger up to something like Dex bonus, like Combat Reflexes, I'd build a character concept (probably Phantom Thief or a Mesmerist) around it. If they toned down the prereqs I'd pick it up some times with martial flexibility.
But as is, it's just so sad.
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I'm not overly impressed with Brute either, but Grey Paladin does have the ability to smite neutral stuff, which isn't nothing, and the less restrictive code can be handy.
And Courtly Hunter loses out on their Bonus Feats, but can still grab a couple of essential Teamwork Feats by just having both them and the Animal Companion (who actually has Int, remember) purchase them. What do you really need on an Animal Companion, anyway? Iron Will and Power Attack? After that you can grab Outflank and Broken Wing Gambit like all the other Hunters.
You miss out on Pack Flanking (and thus Paired Oportunists), but that's not actually the end of the world. Those are certainly nice, but not the entirety of the Hunter's combat ability.
You still keep a fully leveled animal companion, and access to the Ranger list at lower levels, which are your other two advantages.
All of which is rather beside the point. Yeah, there are certainly Archetypes that aren't worth it mechanically (Majordomo and Brute leap to mind immediately), but there are also lots that are (all the other Vigilante Archetypes, Noble Fencer, several Rogue Archetypes, several Mesmerist archetypes, The Wit Bard, The Dandy Ranger, etc.)
Why are the rogue archetypes really strong to you?
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Why are the rogue archetypes really strong to you?
I didn't say 'really strong'. I said 'mechanically worth it'. And I said 'several', not all.
That said, Snoop and Phantom Thief are both actually good at skills in general (unlike base Rogue), and Snoop keeps its combat prowess while doing so, while Phantom Thief gets a variety of interesting tricks to compensate. Master of Disguise is definitely worth what it gives up. Sharper is maybe a little iffy but still both actually better at Saves, and actually good at certain skills...sure it gives up Rogue Talents for the most part (they get their first one at 12th), but Rogue Talents are only an okay class Feature in the first place.
Sharper is pretty great. The only thing that will make people pass it over is the fact it loses Trapfinding. It could also use atleast ONE rogue talent early in that way you could take extra rogue talent if you really wanted to.
Speaking of Brute, I was kind of amused to see that they can select Awesome Blow as a talent at level 8 when the same ability is a level 16 brawler class feature.
Heck at the same level Brawlers pick it up Brutes are removing the size restriction from it, which brawlers can't do until their capstone. Brawlers do it better once you get that capstone, but from my experience capstones don't usually end up being that relevant.
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Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
Why are the rogue archetypes really strong to you?I didn't say 'really strong'. I said 'mechanically worth it'. And I said 'several', not all.
That said, Snoop and Phantom Thief are both actually good at skills in general (unlike base Rogue), and Snoop keeps its combat prowess while doing so, while Phantom Thief gets a variety of interesting tricks to compensate. Master of Disguise is definitely worth what it gives up. Sharper is maybe a little iffy but still both actually better at Saves, and actually good at certain skills...sure it gives up Rogue Talents for the most part (they get their first one at 12th), but Rogue Talents are only an okay class Feature in the first place.
Ah, okay.
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Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.
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See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
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See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!
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Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Unless you only have one stressful situation in the whole adventure you're going to be making those checks constantly :3
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Well, aid another checks stack, so it's probably better to have the whole party working to calm you down if possible...Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
The Whole party.
Plus hope you don't roll a 1.
Or dump Wisdom.
Well, aid another checks stack, so it's probably better to have the whole party working to calm you down if possible...Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Shame you can't aid another on saves, and a nat.1 autofails anyway so the brute will be trying to kill teammates once a week even with godlike saves.
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Unless you only have one stressful situation in the whole adventure you're going to be making those checks constantly :3Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Good thing it is made for an Intrigue game! Mortal peril comes around a little less often.
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Shame you can't aid another on saves, and a nat.1 autofails anyway so the brute will be trying to kill teammates once a week even with godlike saves.
You can aid the Brute's Will save with Diplomacy or similar. A bad confusion will last longer and end in more misery. A Brute has to deal with it every fight, but it is easier to deal with.
I'd like to praise the attention given towards new and unique curse spells in this book. Conditional Curse is my favorite, but I also enjoyed Curse of the Outcast, Life of Crime, and Pox of Rumors.
Open Book is a nice try, but its hard to see it actually being useful to GMs or players.
Honorable mention to Phantasmal Affliction for illusory curses.
Could somebody please tell me what the point of the Criminal Reputation feat is, other than flavor? It appears to be strictly worse than Persuasive, and they don't stack. If there were other feats that required Criminal Reputation as a prerequisite, that would at least be an excuse, but there don't seem to be any yet.
Mark Seifter said in the Ultimate Intrigue Errata thread that they meant to give that feat some additional benefit but dropped the ball on doing that. It is a candidate for a FAQ/errata.
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Fun with true neutral alignment;
The Faith Hunter Inquisitor archetype abilities (i.e. Sworn Enemy, Enemy Revealed, and Hateful Bane) all require target(s) of 'opposite' alignment on the law/chaos or good/evil axis. So... as written, a true neutral character would gain no benefit at all from the archetype.
The Vigilante class grants social and vigilante identities. The Masked Performer Bard archetype grants social and masked identities. The vigilante and masked identities can be within one alignment step of the social identity on each axis. So... a Vigilante 1 / Masked Performer 1 with a true neutral social identity could have a lawful good masked identity and a chaotic evil vigilante identity. :]
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Well, the absolutely greatest thing that I have discovered in this book is that I can now create a frickin' manbearpig natural attack build!
Listen up: Vigilantes have the Wildsoul archetype, which lets them pick one of three animals to emulate: Arachnid, Falconine, or Ursine.
Well, the most logical thing is to be a Ragebred (Skinwalker wereboar-kin) Ursine Wildsoul, to be a pigman with bear-blood. An effective Manbearpig. That is positively amazing, and incidentially my next character.
Just got my book today, and my first impression: The cover binding seems really tight. Just opening it causes the spine to creak. I'm almost nervous to open it fully. Is it just my book or have others had the same experience?
I don't think there are enough focus powers for Psychometrist to be interesting.
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I don't think there are enough focus powers for Psychometrist to be interesting.
So...let's look at Batman. No, really, because I want to build Batman as a Vigilante and this is clearly how. Obviously, the actual Batman would have better stats, but this is the set of Focus Powers a Batman knockoff might grab.
At 2nd, he takes Transmutation as his Implement. That gives him one minute of +1 weapon enhancement several times daily, and thus regular access to Bane once he has a magic weapon. That's a super neat offensively and well worth one Talent.
At 6th, he gets a second Implement. We'll say Illusion (though divination would also be cool). That gives him Minor Figment, which is only okay, but he's building to something here. It also grants a second Transmutation power. We'll grab Sudden Speed for ridiculous mobility.
By this point, assuming an Int of 16, he has 6 points of Focus. He won't usually invest in Minor Figment, but will almost certainly invest one or two in Sudden Speed (a solid trick) and the rest in Legacy Weapon (still awesome).
He's only down two Talents at this point, bear in mind.
At 12th, he grabs Divination as his third Implement, and gets sudden Insight for a +6 to important rolls. That's pretty nice. He also gains an Illusion power and picks Unseen. Now he can be invisible. He also gets a Transmutation power and grabs Mind Over Gravity, for a 'gliding cape' effect.
At this point, assuming Int 18 with a headband, he's effectively a caster with 10 spell slots a day that may be allocated to the following spells at the beginning of the day:
-Swift Action +6 to almost any check
-Minor Figment (by far the least cool of these options)
-Quickened Expeditious Retreat
-Invisibility (costs extra to use on others)
-Fly
-The ability to enhance a weapon with +3 enhancement bonus in abilities (including Bane)
That's...not a big list, but with 10 points, you have more (and possibly better) spells per day than most 4 level casters. That's not a bad trade at all for 3 Talents. And it can be done as a Full BAB character, if you wish. This is actually thee only way I can think of to have targeted Bane on a Full BAB chassis.
And I'm pretty sure there are other good builds, too (admittedly, these builds necessitate Int and/or Extra Mental Focus, and most good builds will have Transmutation as their 2nd or 6th level pick), this is just the first one I thought of.
I don't think there are enough focus powers for Psychometrist to be interesting.
You have to specialize a bit more than a typical occultist, but (as shown) there are some nice abilities to pick up.
I'm actually developing an investigator (psychic detective) 2/stalker vigilante (psychometrist) 12 with conjuration (Servitor is pretty versatile as a base power, possibly Flesh Mend for hp recovery or Purge Corruption for dealing with diseases/poisons, and Side Step for movement regardless of terrain/placement of foes), Illusion (Minor Figment is somewhat useful as a base power for causing a distraction; Shadow Beast, especially when mixed in with Servitor, is pretty good; Unseen can also be extremely useful), and transmutation (already covered, although I'd say Quickness is better than Sudden Speed) implements. I'm still trying to decide the order of implement schools and which focus powers to keep (and if I want to take the Extra Focus Power feat).
My only issue with the Psychometrist is that you don't have a lot of abilities you can choose from. Conjuration is banned. You don't get resonant powers. You don't benefit from any of the powers that alter spellcasting and while you can take them, the powers that give will saves probably aren't the best idea since you probably aren't going to invest as much into int compared to a traditional occultist.
Powers that chew through focus like Evocation's blasts aren't that great either because of your reduced pool.
So I've found it pretty hard to make a psychometrist build that doesn't take Transmutation as their first implement and doesn't feel shortchanged because of it.
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I dunno, I think Abjuration and Divination can make solid first Implements in just about all ways. That gets you some really neat stuff by 6th in both cases. And Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy also have some pretty neat powers available (though those have weak initial powers, so you need to be willing to bite the bullet until 6th).
Really, I think almost any school can work as your first Implement (Evocation being the exception simply due to how expensive it is). You are pretty much required to take Transmutation as your 6th level Implement if it wasn't your 2nd level one, but that still leaves almost all the available schools as 2nd level picks, and several as 12th level picks, too.
Keep in mind, the only reason Transmutation is a must-have is how very very good Bane is. And that only becomes available once you have a +1 weapon, which isn't until at least 4th for most people, so waiting until 6th isn't exactly the end of the world.
Plus, frankly, one available power being so good it's a must-have isn't exactly a major hardship for a Class, y'know?
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I'm just gonna say something off the current discussion, thank you paizo for not giving the inquisitor more lazy archetypes that steal class features and just make a better version of that class. Kinda wish there were more that got rid of the medium armor and bane, especially on the sneakier ones, but one step at a time.
That's...not a big list, but with 10 points, you have more (and possibly better) spells per day than most 4 level casters. That's not a bad...
Deadmanwalking shows one example, but for generic purposes you have 3 abilities from one school, two from another, and 1 from a third. That's 6 powers for giving up 3 talents. Now sure the mental focus might be a little difficult to allocate, but still plenty of neat/useful tricks. And this ontop of full bab or sneak attack variant plus the specialization restricted powers. I think there's plenty to make a fun psychometrist vigilante. And I plan to at some point.
You have to specialize a bit more than a typical occultist, but (as shown) there are some nice abilities to pick up.
I think you've misunderstood what I meant by "there aren't enough focus powers". I don't mean "this specific archetype don't get enough focus powers", I mean "there aren't enough focus powers in the game".
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I think you've misunderstood what I meant by "there aren't enough focus powers". I don't mean "this specific archetype don't get enough focus powers", I mean "there aren't enough focus powers in the game".
Given the number the archetype gives you, I'm not sure how necessary more existing is. Though, obviously, more options are always better.
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I think his issue is similar with the kineticist issue. Yes there's enough options that you have something to pick each time, just everyone who makes one will look the same cause there's clearly a "best" route.
I think his issue is similar with the kineticist issue. Yes there's enough options that you have something to pick each time, just everyone who makes one will look the same cause there's clearly a "best" route.
Yeah. There are enough focus powers that the psychometrist will have enough for 20 levels, doesn't change the fact there aren't many options.
Shame you can't aid another on saves, and a nat.1 autofails anyway so the brute will be trying to kill teammates once a week even with godlike saves.Well, aid another checks stack, so it's probably better to have the whole party working to calm you down if possible...Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Actually, the Brute can benefit from aid another on Will saves to not kill people they don't mean to kill.
But yeah, I feel like the Brute really needs Iron Will and Improved Iron Will with a Defiant weapon...which is kind of problematic, but.
I am currently asking for opinions on how to not Hulk-Smash everyone in sight as the Brute. So far, here's what I have collected:
- A Vigilante's strong saves are Reflex and Will; you need to succeed a Will save to resist fighting his allies, but that save is increasing as you level up, from 20 to 30. Capitalize on increasing your Wisdom score and taking the Iron Will feats, maybe also taking a Cloak of Resistance to help you out.- Everyone can Aid Other for that specific Will save, so a group of 4 allies can grant a bonus totalling +8 to the Brute. Friendly NPCs that have part of the encounter can also assist to that save.
- Something I haven't thought yet: turn back to normal BEFORE finishing the last enemy of the encounter. No save will be required.
That's all I could get... but yeah, it's pretty dumb that you can "reason" when fighting enemies, but lose your mind as soon as no one threatens you. Kinda wish that you had the "Smart Hulk" option for the Brute.
I havent looked in-depth at all of them yet but from what I've seen so far, is that quite a few are really designed around a niche 'Intruige' style campaign.
"Thats the whole point!!"... I hear you cry... well yes and no.
Yes in terms of the idea but in terms of the delivery, if the balance is off (gains vs losses) then it sets bad precedents for future archetypes, irrespective of the setting.