[PFS-Character Crafting] Bard needs Martial Class, badly!


Advice


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I've been looking at my Bard, and while the temptation is exceptionally strong to keep him on his course (he's currently at L5) the lack of 'martial prowess' has been an issue in a scenario or two.

I've seen 'bardbarian' builds in the past, but that's not really appropriate for the character in question, who is built heavily around 'buffing the party'. This is more to 'round out' the character than make him a front-liner.

Out of the ACG I've seen the Exemplar (Brawler Archetype) as a possibility, but does anyone have other suggestions for a potential class?

Whatever class/archetype it would be, it would need to have full BAB, a minimum of 4 skills before any modifiers (6-8 is better), and d10 hit die.

Character is Neutral good with the following stat array:

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 19

Given character is at 5th level, the stats are pretty set in stone, so changing those up is not an option.

Thank you very much for your time in advance!


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

How much of a "dip" are you looking to go for? One level? Two levels? The rest of your characters progression?

I personally have been liking my Bard/Slayer. I took the Vanguard archetype and he can handle himself until his beefier friends arrive.

Plus with the giving out of teamwork feats, sharing of studied target bonuses, and extra feats if you take some combat styles as your talents.

Grand Lodge

If you want to buff, give the best buff a teamwork feat. (Plus CHA to your saves). I give you the Holy Tactician Paladin

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

With those stats? I'm afraid the ship has sailed. You'll be much better off picking up a crossbow, staying full bard, and getting your full spell progression. Pick up UMD and a wand of Magic Missile or something if you want something else to do every round.

If you absolutely must take a dip into a martial class, I'd go with Swashbuckler, and pick up a Dex belt and an agile weapon ASAP. But even that is going to be middling at best (1d6+8 damage IF you pick up Arcane Strike).

Another option if you can go ranged is to take 1 or 2 levels of Divine Hunter paladin, for free Precise Shot, Charisma to saves, and a smite evil per day. Of course, archery is feat-intensive, so you may have to retrain feats or something to make it work.

Grand Lodge

RainyDayNinja wrote:


If you absolutely must take a dip into a martial class, I'd go with Swashbuckler, and pick up a Dex belt and an agile weapon ASAP. But even that is going to be middling at best (1d6+8 damage IF you pick up Arcane Strike).

Or you know, just pick up Inspired Blade at level 7 and get weapon focus, rapier finesse and fencing grace all at once. Plus 6 Panache points. But yeah, didn't look at the stats much. An archer would be better, but the feat investment may be too high to do it well at that point.

Grand Lodge

Freebooter Trapper Ranger is a pretty good bard dip. Maybe two levels to pick up Precise Shot without the Pre-req.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

With those physical stats, martial prowess will never be a thing for that character.

With Cha 19, casting is going to be your thing. What you may want to to is take a single level of crossblooded sorcerer. Take undead and impossible as your bloodlines. Now all your spells, even your bard spells will ignore those pesky immunities of undead and constructs. You can also use wands on the wiz/sorc list without a UMD check.

Stock up on wands, pages of spell knowledge and runestones of power and focus on arcane might.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

So I've been looking at my Bard, and while the temptation is exceptionally strong to keep him on his course (he's currently at L5) the lack of 'martial prowess' has been an issue in a scenario or two.

I've seen 'bardbarian' builds in the past, but that's not really appropriate for the character in question, who is built heavily around 'buffing the party'. This is more to 'round out' the character than make him a front-liner.

I bolded that particular statements for the purpose of my response.

If the purpose of your bard is heavily steered toward buffing and assisting the party, why change it just because you got tripped up one or two times? No character build can be truly prepared for everything. Yes, it's annoying to get caught with your pants down when bad guys sweep in to gang up on you. But that's no reason to divide the attention of your resources, class features, and action economy.

The bard being my favorite class, I can offer this advice: Stay the course. Keep buffing/assisting/healing. But instead of trying to focus on attacking the enemies, take defensive spells like mirror image and saving finale, or spend some of your cash and/or prestige on some defensive fun stuff from Ultimate Equipment. There's a literal treasure trove of great stuff that a buffing bard can take advantage of. And if you feel you need to take some offense, there are great offensive spells in the bard's repertoire like blistering invective, chord of shards, and sound burst (Which makes a fantastic wand, by the way).

The best way to stick to your task and keep your party buffed on your own power is to keep yourself alive; keep away from the mooks. I know it feels like you're "Not Contributing" because you're not bopping the bad guys, but when everyone has a better chance of hitting and damaging, it's just as effective as dealing the damage yourself.

Lastly, there is no harm in buying a Masterwork Shortbow (Or a +1 Conserving shortbow) and a compliment of special-material arrows, or some sleep arrows. Pick at the bad guys a little bit for those times you're doing your buffing, but prefer to conserve your spells.

Shadow Lodge

I've played my fair share of battle bards and, from the looks of it, you don't have the right stat array; you're wayyy better off going straight bard. With the conditions you've laid down, there's nothing which gives you a greater benefit than going straight Bard (especially with your craptastic Str/Con.)

But, if you must dip a martial class, here are my suggestions, and anti-suggestions (ignoring some of your conditions, because they seriously gimp you.)

Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) - Everyone else has talked about why this is a good choice, so I'll just say it's probably the best 1-level dip in the game, and leave it at that.

Urban Bloodrager/Barbarian - Get Rage, some extra HP, and still be able to maintain your song while raging. Always a great dip if you want short-term martial power. However, your Con is terrible, so you'll only have 4 rounds of rage, wading into melee isn't going to end well with your subpar AC/Hp, and you don't have the stats to blitz down enemies while raging.

Paladin (Divine Hunter) - As mentioned, you don't want to go into melee. d8 HD and 10 con means any CR appropriate enemy will shred you, but archery requires a huge feat investment. Divine Hunter fixes that. For a one level dip you get martial weapon proficiency, Precise Shot, and Smite Evil (which is gonna be amazing due to your high Cha.), taking a second level gets you LoH (which'll help you stay on your feet longer) and Charisma to saves. You only lose out on a few skills (which a bard can easily spare).

Fighter - Avoid like the plague. There is nothing here which helps you.

Brawler (Exemplar) - Not great, imo. The first level ability is really situational (allies are flatfooted but you aren't), and it doesn't have anything which helps overcome your subpar bonus to hit/damage. Pass.

Cavalier - Not great in and of itself. Challenge is okay and having a mount would open up Spirited Charge and other paths. I only bring this up because it's required to get you into Battle Herald.

Prestige options - You asked for a one level dip, but now I'm going to offer you some options which allow you to maximize the impact of said dip.

Battle Herald (Cavalier) - A hybrid of bard and cavalier, which trades the Bard's spellcasting progression for the ability to apply a vast array of buffs to the party. Also gives some decent bonuses for teamwork feats. Has-full BaB, d10 HD, 4+int skill ranks, and strong Fort/Will. The downside is, you lose your casting progression and you *must* take a level of Cavalier in order to get in.

Eldritch Knight (All except Brawler) - A hybrid of Fighter and Wizard. Trade your bardic performance progression for some extra combat feats and full-BaB. The class pretty much speaks for itself, if you want to be a martial, but still retain all your casting, then Eldritch Knight is the best choice.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Hrmmm. 10 con suggests you want to stay in the back line. Multiclassing is probably not the greatest of ideas because you lose spellcasting, but... if you're sold on this martial thing, you have some options but they all basically require multiclassing. Since you're already providing bard song, and your stats are pretty well-set, the thing to do would seem to be to get as many attacks as possible so you can benefit from those bonuses as often as possible.

1. Relic-channeler medium. Focus on the Champion spirit for for +1 to hit, +3 damage--among other things like +1 Fort. At level 2, you can share some of that-- the +2 damage--with your fellows. Spirit Focus (Champion) increases each of those by 1 (for you only), so that's +2 to hit, +4 damage. This, at least, kinda works with your "buff the party" goal. Costs spellcasting since all you get is some lousy cantrips. It adds some small amount of flexibility elsewhere.

2. Arcane Strike--the obvious choice for bards. You're level 5, so that's +2 to hit and damage as a swift action.

3. Barbarian (probably Unchained?) or Urban Barbarian (Chained), Bloodrager, Investigator, or Slayer... each of these can provide some flat bonuses to hit and damage, but in different ways.

4. A better option might be to go Slayer and get the Two-Weapon Fighting feats for throwing, or a bonus archery feat for rapid shot.

5. You could go Paladin... smite evil would net you a pretty sizable bonus to hit and with your bard levels, you might be able to identify targets effectively enough so that you wouldn't waste your smite. Silver Smite Bracelet gets you an expensive extra smite/day and at second level your saves go up. Needs an alignment shift but you're NG so IF that's something you wanted to do, it's not as insane as it could be.

6. You could take a level of Zen Archer for longbow proficiency, "early access" to Rapid Shot, Perfect Strike 3/day, and +2 to all of your saves. It's completely hilariously not going to help with almost anything else, especially because of your wisdom, but if all you want is a way to get rapid shot it's not impossible. If you take two levels in it, you get yet another bonus feat as well as weapon focus in a bow. This would also require an alignment change, though. Wearing armor wouldn't cost you much besides the 10 feet of movement you probably don't care much about as an archer anyway.

So, my completely hackneyed recommendation (beware, Here Be Dragons, this is sort of insane):

X: Retrain a feat to Arcane Strike if you can.
6: 1 level in Chained Monk (Zen Archer archetype). Take bonus feat: Rapid Shot. Get a +2 strength from somewhere (belt? Ioun stone?). Get a composite longbow, strength +2.
7: 1 level in Medium (Relic Channeler archetype). Take feat: Spirit Focus (Champion). Grants +2 hit / +4 damage.
8: 1 level in Chained Monk (Zen Archer archetype). 2nd overall. Take bonus feat: Precise Shot. Gain weapon focus.
9: 1 level in Paladin. Gain Smite Evil. Buy silver smite bracelet for 2 smites/day. You have a feat here and you can use it on a bunch of different things if you want!
10: 1 level in Paladin. Gain charisma bonus to all saves.

Keep on progressing as Paladin until you're sick of shooting things with a bow. Right now you're looking at (not counting feats I don't know about, spells, or magic equipment:

5: +3 bab, +2 dex, +2 inspire courage, +2 arcane strike. +9 to hit, unknown damage.
6: +3 bab, +7/+7 to hit, 1d8+6 damage.
7: +3 bab, +9/+9 to hit, 1d8+10 damage.
8: +4 bab, +11/+11 to hit, 1d8+10 damage and you can shoot things in melee.
9: +5 bab, +12/+12 to hit, 1d8+10 damage and you can smite twice. Smite adds at least 4, probably 5 to your to-hit and +1 to damage. At this point you can be an acceptable secondary archer vs. evil enemies!
10: +6/+1 bab, +13/+13/+8 to hit, 1d8+10. Smite is +4 hit/+2 damage.

Bonuses to dexterity and magic weapons will increase those numbers. They're... actually pretty close to what my archaeologist bard is doing. You'll have much better saves than you would have otherwise had, but your spellcasting and skills will probably go into the tank.

Incidentally, your 10th level saves would be somewhere on the order of:
1/4/4 bard
3/3/3 monk
2/0/2 medium (including spirit bonus from Champion spirit)
3/0/3 medium
0/2/-1 stats
9/9/11 total (not including stat increases or magic)

Okay, I'm calling it quits on the multiclassing insanity for now.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Everyone keeps mentioning paladin archetypes, but the character is firmly Neutral Good.

Has something changed that allows non-lawful folks to be paladins?

Thank you to folks who have mentioned thus far options, I'd like to hear other ideas, please keep them coming!

Scarab Sages

How about just going into Dragon Disciple? As a Bard you qualify, and it will give you some solid ability score increases and natural armor.

Grand Lodge

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Everyone keeps mentioning paladin archetypes, but the character is firmly Neutral Good.

Has something changed that allows non-lawful folks to be paladins?

Thank you to folks who have mentioned thus far options, I'd like to hear other ideas, please keep them coming!

There's no restriction on changing alignment unless you've imposed it on yourself. NG to LG is only one step so it's definitely within the realms of roleplaying to do so. It's not like your character was CN before and now your LG. But even that isn't against the rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Continuing bard to 7 to get performance down to a move is a big boost, letting you start one and cast in the same round.

I'd put gold into expanding your caster side, rather than trying to go for a martial offshoot that your stats don't support. Pearls for extra slots, headband for more cha, item of spell knowledge for more access.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Everyone keeps mentioning paladin archetypes, but the character is firmly Neutral Good.

Has something changed that allows non-lawful folks to be paladins?

Thank you to folks who have mentioned thus far options, I'd like to hear other ideas, please keep them coming!

Nope. As I mentioned in my giant long DANGER WILL ROBINSON post, an alignment change would be necessary before you could take either levels in paladin or in monk.

When you say "lack of martial prowess", what type of martial prowess are you talking about, precisely? Is your to-hit with some existing tactic unfortunately low? Is your damage output too minimal?

Some other things that might help: what's the rest of the build look like? Feat selection? Spell selection? Any major magic item purchases?

Do you get any weapon proficiencies from race? (ex: half-orc, elf)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

And yes, in case it wasn't clear--with your current build, you seem to have gone all in on caster. Which is really good, but it makes going martial that much harder. That's why the rabbit hole of multiclassing I followed ended up in multiclass hell--if you want to contribute through weapon damage, you're not well set-up for it at all, and you have to do a lot to overcome that. You'll probably be much happier just sticking with Bard.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:


There's no restriction on changing alignment unless you've imposed it on yourself. NG to LG is only one step so it's definitely within the realms of roleplaying to do so.

It's very much what the character has imposed upon themselves.

They don't see themselves being one hundred (or even ninety) percent law-abiding doing some of the things that the Society requires them to do, but at the same time they're not sold on the near-anarchy that a chaotic mindset would entail.

There's enough crazy on most missions to not go *that* direction...

That aside, thank you for the breakdown on possibles Terminalmancer...

This is the character in question (not just the stats, so folks can see what my mind-set is, please no 'badwrongfun' pokes, he's been working pretty well)

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 19
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Flagbearer[ISWG], Lingering Performance[APG], Persuasive Performer
Traits ear for music, freedom fighter
Skills Disguise +12, Escape Artist +6, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +9 (+11 on checks that deal with the local art or music scene), Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Linguistics +7, Perception +3, Perform (percussion instruments) +14, Perform (sing) +13, Sleight of Hand +6 (+8 to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you regarding items in the sheath, +8 to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you regarding items in the sheath), Spellcraft +10, Stealth +3, Survival -1 (+1 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +12

SQ bardic knowledge +2, lore master 1/day, masterpieces (triple time[UM]), versatile performance (sing)

Special Attacks bardic performance 16 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, fascinate [DC 16], inspire competence +2, inspire courage +2)
Bard Spells Known (CL 5th; concentration +9)
2nd (3/day)—glitterdust (DC 16), mirror image, suggestion (DC 16)
1st (5/day)—expeditious retreat, glue seal[ACG], heightened awareness[ACG], liberating command[UC]
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, message, read magic, spark[APG] (DC 14)

Also, working towards eventually buying a particular sentient that is currently being held in 'storage Gulag' to liberate them.

Spoiler:
Gamin the Misforged

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That looks like a fun build! I'm not entirely sure how to mechanically help you with melee, though. Maybe the swashbuckler idea would work.

Combining haste, heroism/good hope, performance, and flag get you +6 to hit (and +3 to +5 to damage) but your DPS will merely be passable, and you've got both hands full assuming

Spoiler:
Gamin doesn't like spending quality time with his scabbard
which limits your ability to cast. It's not the greatest setup for combat maneuvers, either.

Arcane Strike at 7th level would get you a pretty decent boost to hit and damage. You could go Dirty Fighting instead and then get Improved Trip or Improved Disarm or something at 9th. A level in Swashbuckler could help that.

I think after your latest batch of information, I'm with Brigg the Bardmeister on this one. Have fun with the character as you designed them to be! Every character's going to have a couple scenarios (or more) where they just can't help a ton, and that's okay.


As others have already mentioned, your stat array is really not well set up to engage in melee at all. I would also recommend focusing on buffs and casting. You could consider retraining into Thunder Caller for some more in combat control.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Terminalmancer wrote:

That looks like a fun build! I'm not entirely sure how to mechanically help you with melee, though. Maybe the swashbuckler idea would work.

Combining haste, heroism/good hope, performance, and flag get you +6 to hit (and +3 to +5 to damage) but your DPS will merely be passable, and you've got both hands full assuming ** spoiler omitted ** which limits your ability to cast. It's not the greatest setup for combat maneuvers, either.

Arcane Strike at 7th level would get you a pretty decent boost to hit and damage. You could go Dirty Fighting instead and then get Improved Trip or Improved Disarm or something at 9th. A level in Swashbuckler could help that.

I think after your latest batch of information, I'm with Brigg the Bardmeister on this one. Have fun with the character as you designed them to be! Every character's going to have a couple scenarios (or more) where they just can't help a ton, and that's okay.

He really is a fun build.

I'm just getting worried after seeing the other thread where people were saying CON 10 just wouldn't cut it and it's not in the budget to buy a CONbelt that now he'll be targeted, and I was trying to think of some sort of defense for that on the 'cheap'.

But losing CL is, as has been pointed out, too expensive a price to pay.

Thank you all for the insight!

Grand Lodge

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


There's no restriction on changing alignment unless you've imposed it on yourself. NG to LG is only one step so it's definitely within the realms of roleplaying to do so.
It's very much what the character has imposed upon themselves.

That's fair. There's nothing wrong with having a character and sticking to it.

Unless you've got a great plan on why you want to have a second class (other than wanting to just be more efficient in melee), I'd focus on what you're good at. Up your charisma skills. Make sure your, uh, performance to to other skills bard class ability are well picked. Get the head/face/whatever ( sorry, I really can't remember specifics..) item that gives you a +3 on all of your charisma-based checks (it even helps on things like spell resistance checks).

My wife feels pretty much the same way with her bard as you do about yours (as in she lacks a vital combat presence). But her social skills are through the roof. We played one of the specials and the GM informed us that her lvl 5 diplomacy check blew the pants off of the tier 10-11 DC. After you get a couple more levels you'll be loving your combat buffs. And pages of spell knowledge are really useful for getting more low level spells on your spell list.

The Exchange

Retrain into the Thundercaller archetype. You suddenly can do a bit of damage and have amazing crowd control.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:


That's fair. There's nothing wrong with having a character and sticking to it.

Unless you've got a great plan on why you want to have a second class (other than wanting to just be more efficient in melee), I'd focus on what you're good at. Up your charisma skills. Make sure your, uh, performance to to other skills bard class ability are well picked. Get the head/face/whatever ( sorry, I really can't remember specifics..) item that gives you a +3 on all of your charisma-based checks (it even helps on things like spell resistance checks).

My wife feels pretty much the same way with her bard as you do about yours (as in she lacks a vital combat presence). But her social skills are through the roof. We played one of the specials and the GM informed us that her lvl 5 diplomacy check blew the pants off of the tier 10-11 DC. After you get a couple more levels you'll be loving your combat buffs. And pages of spell knowledge are really useful for getting more low level spells on your spell list.

It's not so much the 'vital combat presence'. He'd LOVE to be able to hold back and do his thing, but paranoia has settled in after the rogues nearly ganked him.

The fiendish wolverine he stumbled into was more of a fluke of positioning (and player avoiding the meta of cheating the blinded effect)

What are pages of spell knowledge? Is that a feat/gear/equipment/on a chronicle?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
What are pages of spell knowledge? Is that a feat/gear/equipment/on a chronicle?

They are slotless wondrous items from Ultimate Equipment. Each one holds a specific spell and allows a spontaneous caster to treat it as a spell he knows, so long as it is on his class's spell list.

Grand Lodge

Given that, as a Bard you are already proficient with whips, it might be an idea to take a dip into Lore Warden Fighter, and go for the Whip Mastery feats, with an idea for weapon finesse. and the trip/disarm feats. With Improved Whip Mastery, you can trip on AoOs before they can get adjacent to you, and it uses your slightly better Dex for CMB instead of Str.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

It's not so much the 'vital combat presence'. He'd LOVE to be able to hold back and do his thing, but paranoia has settled in after the rogues nearly ganked him.

The fiendish wolverine he stumbled into was more of a fluke of positioning (and player avoiding the meta of cheating the blinded effect)

What are pages of spell knowledge? Is that a feat/gear/equipment/on a chronicle?

Aha! Some other options...

  • Three ranks in Acrobatics mean that you get a +3 bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of a +2 bonus, and a +6 bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of a +4 bonus... all bonuses are Dodge of course.

  • Improved initiative feats/traits can keep you going early, not just to set up buffs but also keep you out of harm's way (or casting Mirror Image early, if that's your wont)

  • If you regularly play with a particular group you could talk some of them into taking the Lookout feat with you to help everyone go in the surprise round...

  • Mirror image, of course, and similar spells and effects

  • The dodge and mobility feats... mobility in particular is a very good "I just don't want to be here!" tool.

  • Combat Casting feat... mostly so you can cast defensively without worrying about it. When you get to level 4 spells, take Dimension Door and hide behind the beef. Or the wizard...

  • Grand Lodge

    Looking at the problem you've descibed, it looks like your problem is more with suddenly being the target of fire from the badguys.

    A martial dip won't do much for your defense, but some other steps can. Consider dropping 3 ranks in acrobatics when you hit level 7. Also, grab yourself a +1 mithral buckler to strap to your flag bearer arm (doesn't use the hand). pickup the usual amulet of natural armour/ring of protection. If you get flanked/ambushed, you can then start your song as a move action, standard action total defense and five foot step towards friends. AC total would be:

    2 (Dex) + 5 (+1 chain shirt) + 2 (+1 Buckler) + 1 (Amulet) + 1 (Ring) + 6 (full defense with 3 ranks acrobatics) = 27

    total item cost: around 6k

    Should help you hold out for a turn whilst still buffing allies.

    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / [PFS-Character Crafting] Bard needs Martial Class, badly! All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.
    Recent threads in Advice