Sniper Class homebrew: The shot you never saw coming


Homebrew and House Rules


Hi there! I'm generally new to pathfinder (Have been playing for about 6 months) But I fell in love with the game and have a cool idea for a homebrew class, still in edit, and heavily inspired by the Marksman D&D 3.5 class, but would love to hear some feedback from more experienced GM's and min-maxers alike! Thanks all!

Link to Class doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10fLxlJL5ZKbRO3jQzYLl7P0oZykcCCK7kVsmLMR nvvs/edit?usp=sharing

Would appreciate any advice.
-Trev


>Linkified<


Drejk wrote:
>Linkified<

Lol thx u can tell Im the best at this site xD


Early issues:

Hit Dice d6 for hit points is really low for a class that does not reshapes the universe with magic. Also, aside of a few exceptions (Barbarian, Draconic Disciple, etc), HD used is tied to BAB - d6 being linked to low BAB (1/2 BAB per level). With medium BAB d8 is expected.

Base Attack Bonus 2/3rd isn't a progression used in Pathfinder. Medium BAB progression is 3/4th (which also happens to be the one you included in the table).


I think my main issue is you haven't really made the class a sniper.

All you've done is make archery even better than it already was, and make full attacks with bows better than they already were.

Many of the weapon enhancements are too strong IMO.

Change the HD to d10 and make the class full BAB.

Give the class a special ability that allows the Sniper to combine all attacks granted by BAB to pool the damage into a single attack as a full round action. In this way you effectively still have a full attack action (though without Manyshot or Rapid Shot) and get the full damage from each arrow, but it would be only a single arrow.

I'm not sure exactly how it should be written, but the theme of being a sniper should definitely be 1 single deadly attack.

At the same time the ability should still have serious drawbacks like not compatible with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, the whole shot could be defeated by Deflect Arrows, etc.


Drejk wrote:

Early issues:

Hit Dice d6 for hit points is really low for a class that does not reshapes the universe with magic. Also, aside of a few exceptions (Barbarian, Draconic Disciple, etc), HD used is tied to BAB - d6 being linked to low BAB (1/2 BAB per level). With medium BAB d8 is expected.

Base Attack Bonus 2/3rd isn't a progression used in Pathfinder. Medium BAB progression is 3/4th (which also happens to be the one you included in the table).

Fixed BAB listing, my bad always thought that was 2/3, changed to 3/4, as for the Hit Dice I'm well aware of the usual assignments, but i thought it'd be fun to seek out a sort of "Glass cannon" Class, as in sneaking into the shadows and dunking on kids with archery, but if caught in melee is in serious trouble, so I thought hey, maybe a squishy character? although maybe he's too under-powered to justify a d6 nerf? As always open to criticism and ideas.


Claxon wrote:

I think my main issue is you haven't really made the class a sniper.

All you've done is make archery even better than it already was, and make full attacks with bows better than they already were.

Many of the weapon enhancements are too strong IMO.

Change the HD to d10 and make the class full BAB.

Give the class a special ability that allows the Sniper to combine all attacks granted by BAB to pool the damage into a single attack as a full round action. In this way you effectively still have a full attack action (though without Manyshot or Rapid Shot) and get the full damage from each arrow, but it would be only a single arrow.

I'm not sure exactly how it should be written, but the theme of being a sniper should definitely be 1 single deadly attack.

At the same time the ability should still have serious drawbacks like not compatible with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, the whole shot could be defeated by Deflect Arrows, etc.

Very True in hindsight, I feel similar and thought about something like that but then i go back to the thought of "What if they miss?" or "What if the enemy deflects the arrow?" then the entire class gets crapped on by any monk, so maybe, idk, a better system for Long, and I mean LONG range attacks? or like you said a turbo-shot that is a full round action, but give it an undeflectable bonus? or maybe that and a good way to get the class some damn good accuracy?


firefox2341 wrote:
Very True in hindsight, I feel similar and thought about something like that but then i go back to the thought of "What if they miss?" or "What if the enemy deflects the arrow?" then the entire class gets crapped on by any monk

Then there should instead be something about their shots that makes them incapable of being deflected, or maybe that deflection deals reduced damage rather than no damage. Or even some explosive shots that cannot be deflected at all.

And for all other such ranged attack hosers, like windwall or invisibility, there should be other contingiencies, like being able to angle the shot such that the windwall directs the shot into the target rather than deflecting it.

The focus should absolutely be on making the optimal strategy for this class be one shot per turn, if not one shot per several turns.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Welcome to the forums and to Pathfinder! I'm happy to see a new player feeling ambitious enough to create content for this game. I want to warn you that my critiques can be harsh. However, I do not mean to discourage you. After all, I became an alternate for RPG Superstar when I never played a game of Pathfinder!

1) BAB and HD are linked together. This is "hardcoded" into the game. Any creature type or class with a full BAB has a d10, a 3/4 BAB has d8, and a 1/2 BAB has a d6. There's a lot of good (though complicated) game design reasons why the game works like this.

2) Because of the above point, you have to use other methods to make a class more "squishy." This usually involves armor proficiencies and stat dependencies. Ranged characters are already typically squishy simply because they rely on maxing two ability scores for fighting, have a high Dex that incentivizes wearing light armor,

3) Getting proficiency in all two-handed ranged weapons feels too broad. Technically, there's no such thing as a "two-handed ranged weapon" and many ranged weapons that require two hands to wield can also be wielded one-handed with a penalty. It might be better to list specific types of weapons.

4) This sniping class does not have any ability that uses the sniping rules.

5) Giving them a Stealth bonus makes sense but adding Wisdom modifier to it is way too much.

6) Signature Weapon Mod is my favorite part of the class. However, many of the abilities are way too powerful (like the +2 damage) or unnecessary (like armor piercing because there's already an ability that boosts your attack rolls). It's also very vague how a sniper assigns his "signature weapon."

7) What's the Ambush skill?

8) Why do Sniper Bonus Feats require feats that involve only bows and crossbows? Especially since you gave them proficiency in tons of ranged weapons and the name of some abilities imply you wanted this class to work with firearms.

9) The class gets an unusual amount of defensive abilities, like evasion at 2nd level and the ability to create smoke clouds. I thought this class was supposed to be "squishy?" Shouldn't they have to rely on Stealth to protect themselves? They're a sniper -- force them to snipe to keep safe!

10) Critical Snipe should just give you Improved Critical. A class ability should not change a weapon's criticals unless the ability requires you to wield a very specific type of weapon.

11) Many of the ability DCs are not calculated correctly. The DC for an ability is usually 10 + 1/2 level + ability score modifier. When writing the DCs down, use the full term for the ability score modifier, not an abbreviation. For example, "dc 10+Wis" could be misinterpreted as "10 + Wisdom score."

12) The Shock and Awe line of abilities is pretty cool, but there's numerous issues with it. The biggest one is that it fails the bag of rats test, a common problem with abilities that trigger on an enemy's death/taking damage. You can basically snipe a bunch of very weak creatures like a dogs and then cause massive hysteria. You can pretty much auto-win every fight by having your party carry around bags of bunnies or kittens. Also, at this point in the game, the sniper will be highest damage-dealing character in the party. Does he really need an at-will AoE crowd control effect? It might be better and cooler to give him a once per day death attack that shakens nearby enemies.

13) The class overall feels very narrow and niche. This feels more like a character concept than an actual class. It might be better as an archetype to the rogue or slayer.

14) I want to end my critique by making something very clear: designing classes is hard. Really hard. So hard that even professional game designers can screw it up. That's why Pathfinder has many ways to build and design concepts without having to use a whole new class. Archetypes and alternate classes are a good example of this.


firefox2341 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think my main issue is you haven't really made the class a sniper.

All you've done is make archery even better than it already was, and make full attacks with bows better than they already were.

Many of the weapon enhancements are too strong IMO.

Change the HD to d10 and make the class full BAB.

Give the class a special ability that allows the Sniper to combine all attacks granted by BAB to pool the damage into a single attack as a full round action. In this way you effectively still have a full attack action (though without Manyshot or Rapid Shot) and get the full damage from each arrow, but it would be only a single arrow.

I'm not sure exactly how it should be written, but the theme of being a sniper should definitely be 1 single deadly attack.

At the same time the ability should still have serious drawbacks like not compatible with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, the whole shot could be defeated by Deflect Arrows, etc.

Very True in hindsight, I feel similar and thought about something like that but then i go back to the thought of "What if they miss?" or "What if the enemy deflects the arrow?" then the entire class gets crapped on by any monk, so maybe, idk, a better system for Long, and I mean LONG range attacks? or like you said a turbo-shot that is a full round action, but give it an undeflectable bonus? or maybe that and a good way to get the class some damn good accuracy?

No no no, you misunderstand. Having a great power should come with some serious drawbacks, even if they are rare. Most people don't have deflect arrows. Yes, a person with deflect arrows could easily defeat your Sniper with a single super attack. But everyone has weaknesses. And, nothing says you would have to use the ability to make a Super Shot. It's just the design to make a single powerful hit instead of multiple weaker hits.


Okay everyone who's opinions pointed out some crucial flaws, I decided after I slept on it to change the idea to a re-worked more in depth archetype for Unchaine Rogues, (Yes, archetypes are compatible with Uncahined as long as they do not replace any talent or ability not on the list of unchained talents, and if your wondering why I picked Unchained is because chained rogues are the least-effective class in all of PF, like me and my friends have long since ruled that Chained rogue doesn't exist, Unchained is the only way to go)

Anyways sheet has been updated, and anyone who views has commenting privileges! Looking for major feedback on balancing now and would love to hear feedback. I'm really happy in how this is turning out!
-Trev

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Unchained Rogue can have archetypes. Paizo's ruling simply explains how the class interacts with existing archetypes. And I see no fault in wanting to make new archetypes for unchained rogue!


Cyrad wrote:

Welcome to the forums and to Pathfinder! I'm happy to see a new player feeling ambitious enough to create content for this game. I want to warn you that my critiques can be harsh. However, I do not mean to discourage you. After all, I became an alternate for RPG Superstar when I never played a game of Pathfinder!

1) BAB and HD are linked together. This is "hardcoded" into the game. Any creature type or class with a full BAB has a d10, a 3/4 BAB has d8, and a 1/2 BAB has a d6. There's a lot of good (though complicated) game design reasons why the game works like this.

2) Because of the above point, you have to use other methods to make a class more "squishy." This usually involves armor proficiencies and stat dependencies. Ranged characters are already typically squishy simply because they rely on maxing two ability scores for fighting, have a high Dex that incentivizes wearing light armor,

3) Getting proficiency in all two-handed ranged weapons feels too broad. Technically, there's no such thing as a "two-handed ranged weapon" and many ranged weapons that require two hands to wield can also be wielded one-handed with a penalty. It might be better to list specific types of weapons.

4) This sniping class does not have any ability that uses the sniping rules.

5) Giving them a Stealth bonus makes sense but adding Wisdom modifier to it is way too much.

6) Signature Weapon Mod is my favorite part of the class. However, many of the abilities are way too powerful (like the +2 damage) or unnecessary (like armor piercing because there's already an ability that boosts your attack rolls). It's also very vague how a sniper assigns his "signature weapon."

7) What's the Ambush skill?

8) Why do Sniper Bonus Feats require feats that involve only bows and crossbows? Especially since you gave them proficiency in tons of ranged weapons and the name of some abilities imply you wanted this class to work with firearms.

9) The class gets an unusual amount of defensive abilities, like evasion at 2nd level...

THANK YOU SO MUCH, srsly this was a huge help in taking a step back and re-evaluating the class, and teaching me about more in-depth PF rules (Never even knew about sniping rules)

I Made this into an archetype for UC Rogue, if youd like you can have a better look, now i think all I need is balancing and fine-tuning! Much love, -Trev


You might consider the Expert Sniper and Master Sniper feats as free feats.

Proficiencies could be: All simple weapons, plus all martial and exotic ranged weapons. Proficient only with light armor. This replaces Finesse Training.

It wouldn't hurt too much to let the player pick up Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot on their own.

The snipe sneak attack seems somewhat wonky, perhaps in the way it's worded.


I'm not sure how you are going to consistantly get sneak attack damage with this.


hiiamtom wrote:
I'm not sure how you are going to consistantly get sneak attack damage with this.

Which is why I changed how sneak attack works, instead its either a: someone who didnt notice you yet, or B: someone who you haven't damaged yet, that way your tactics as a sniper are: Sneaky sneak: start using full draw and other feats and abilities to pick off the enemy.


Looks like you've already made some alterations to your document. I'll comment anyway.

Keep hit die and BAB unchanged from what the rogue gets.

Leave the skill list unaltered. One thing that you could utilize is lowering the number of skill points from 8 to 6, but that's only if you decide the sniper is less of a skill monkey and makes up for it with some other talents.

Dump your new weapon proficiency list. You could probably leave the rogue list as is. Simple weapons already includes crossbows and daggers. The rogue get hand crossbow and short bow, which also fit in. A longbow could be good, but I don't really see a sniper using one. Keep simple weapons, but change around the other weapons it gets. Or just leave it alone.

Off-Guard Ambush is really, really open to interpretation. "hitting an enemy that has not spotted him" isn't exactly a thing, but an enemy being unaware is. Awareness is something that is determined before beginning a surprise round. You could probably reword to utilize that. Also, dealing extra damage to an enemy that is undanaged feels like lazy design. It could lead to some dumb situations where someone who has knocked his finger with a knife becomes immune to a sniper's extra damage. Leaving sneak attack unmodified would actually do the job just fine. If you take away all incentive to use melee weapons, the sniper just won't use melee weapons. You would need to increase the range through. Maybe that can replace some talents or uncanny dodge.


My Self wrote:

You might consider the Expert Sniper and Master Sniper feats as free feats.

Proficiencies could be: All simple weapons, plus all martial and exotic ranged weapons. Proficient only with light armor. This replaces Finesse Training.

It wouldn't hurt too much to let the player pick up Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot on their own.

The snipe sneak attack seems somewhat wonky, perhaps in the way it's worded.

Although those do look very tasty, I like the flavor of a sniper being a "One shot one kill" Class, or well, in PF: "One turbo full round action shot, then hide again and hope that killed them" class.,

As for Ambush, Mayhaps I need to work on the wording, my idea is that they get their sneak attacks on ranged attacks against people who don't actively think about to be shot in the face, so either when they pop one from a bush in stealth (The ideal situation), or the less flavor-tastic but more practical approach (Same as how normal rogues get "Sneak" attack while in broad daylight while flanking), which would be that they get their bonus damage on anyone who hasn't yet been damaged by them, so RP-wise they haven't thought to guard against them, yet.


But either of those last for exactly 1 arrow and then your are just a bad archer, and sneak attack had a 30ft range limit... You should be doing DEX to damage and figure out how to get consistant sneak attack damage. Just using stealth is really, really, really weak with the way the rules work.

Maybe allow a sniper to use cover or concealment to better effect, or allow sniping when a teammate is threatening a target, or something to get consistant damage so the sniper doesn't fall way behind.

If you want the "one shot, one kill" feel then maybe give an assassinate ability at higher levels or against targets that are disabled in some fashion. Maybe give vital strike that adds sneak attack damage for every iterative attack that vital strike adds weapon damage for.

There just needs to be something more here to boost the performance in combat for a combat themed archetype.

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