So, just invited someone new to the party, who said they wanted to play an artificer. I know that an official paizo artificer is as hard to find as a unicorn, so I show her some third party stuff I like, like the machinesmith, and things that come close to the artificer. We eventually went with this one, apparently based off of the 3.5 Eberron artificer.
There are a lot of things I didn't fully trust with this class... D8 hit die, medium armor with no spell failure chance, and a third level spell that after one round of preparation, at level eight can deal 8d8 points of damage with a ranged touch, and can be held onto for up to 80 minutes in advance.
All of that might be fine on it's own, but the one thing I'm almost certain is a problem, both mechanically and thematically, is that she gains access to her class' entire spell list as spontanous-casted spells.
Sure, her spells per day aren't all that exciting, but in one session she pulled out a solution to most every problem that arose. "Bad guys chasing us and we have to run? let me just look at my massive spell list... yeah, I just so conveniently have this thick wall of steel to block the doorway with."
Rest assured though, I'm placing none of the blame on the player. I probably wouldn't have as big a problem with it if the resource didn't try so hard to convince me it was totally fine to have spontaneous, infinite spells as long as the class' spell list was small, and sure it was small, but still, no other class has access to that many spells at any level (unless a wizard goes absolutely crazy studying everything there is to study.)
Is * this * class overpowered because it can cast * any spell it wants to * without preparation?
Should I give the class a limitation of spells known like the wizard, or preparation like a cleric? Or both?
Sorry for my rambling, and thanks in advance for any advice!
The original artificer had a more limited list of spells than this one, which is probably a big part of the problem. Only 5 spells on the original artificer's 5th level list, for example, compared to 12 on this one. I think with the greatly expanded list in this conversion, it should probably also get bard level spells known in order to make an attempt at staying semi-balanced.
Oh, I didn't even consider bard... I originally wanted something with a spellbook to fit with the theme, but considering how little room there is for exploration, she can just craft for any extra spells she needs.
Thanks!
Have you looked into the Occultist from Occult Adventures? Considering the class's dependence on a multitude of implements, the otherwise similar chassis to the Artificer (decent HD, armor, skills, no arcane failure chance, and so on), and the fact that it's a Paizo class and therefore will probably get as much official support as any other class, I'd see how it fares.
Have you looked into the Occultist from Occult Adventures? Considering the class's dependence on a multitude of implements, the otherwise similar chassis to the Artificer (decent HD, armor, skills, no arcane failure chance, and so on), and the fact that it's a Paizo class and therefore will probably get as much official support as any other class, I'd see how it fares.
Ooh, the occultist does look nice... I'd rather not go through character creation again, but this is really good to compare to. thanks!
Honestly looking over the list of infusions I am not seeing a big problem. While the list is larger than most spells know for spontaneous casters the list is really not that good. Blade Barrier seems to be the best offensive infusion which they get at 16th level. The oracle picked up this spell at 12th level. At the same level the artificer is picking up Blade Barrier the bard is picking up Mass Charm Person or Project Image.
There are a lot of things I didn't fully trust with this class... D8 hit die, medium armor with no spell failure chance, and a third level spell that after one round of preparation, at level eight can deal 8d8 points of damage with a ranged touch, and can be held onto for up to 80 minutes in advance.
Honestly, that all seems pretty much right in line with other classes. Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Bard, Cleric and Oracle all have pretty similar things.
All of that might be fine on it's own, but the one thing I'm almost certain is a problem, both mechanically and thematically, is that she gains access to her class' entire spell list as spontanous-casted spells.
Sure, her spells per day aren't all that exciting, but in one session she pulled out a solution to most every problem that arose. "Bad guys chasing us and we have to run? let me just look at my massive spell list... yeah, I just so conveniently have this thick wall of steel to block the doorway with."
It is possible that the list has too much stuff in it, but what you are describing is not a lot of power, but quite a bit of versatility and unique problem solving. That sounds pretty good to me and exactly what I would thematically want an artificer to be. You haven't described anything that seems like a real balance issue to me.
In any event, you aren't very clear on what the problem is. Are the other players not having fun? Are you not having fun because the character is spoiling you plan? Depending on what the actual problem is the solution may be different.
Honestly looking over the list of infusions I am not seeing a big problem. While the list is larger than most spells know for spontaneous casters the list is really not that good. Blade Barrier seems to be the best offensive infusion which they get at 16th level. The oracle picked up this spell at 12th level. At the same level the artificer is picking up Blade Barrier the bard is picking up Mass Charm Person or Project Image.
"Blast rod," unless I'm reading it wrong, allows you to prepare a metal rod with 1d8/lvl force damage and release up to 10d8 (if you have that many) as a ray that deals force damage. At level eight, she did 8d8 damage on a ranged touch. Does the fact that that's only a few times per day balance out the amount of damage? Or am I looking at it wrong, and that's not too much damage at all for a third level spell?
Why not have them "cast" like an alchemist?
Like prepare them ahead of time? Or have a book of formulas? I'm still considering that option, and it might be a good choice.
There are a lot of things I didn't fully trust with this class [...]Honestly, that all seems pretty much right in line with other classes. Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Bard, Cleric and Oracle all have pretty similar things.
All of that might be fine on it's own, but the one thing I'm almost certain is a problem, both mechanically and thematically, is that she gains access to her class' entire spell list as spontanous-casted spells.In any event, you aren't very clear on what the problem is. Are the other players not having fun? Are you not having fun because the character is spoiling you plan? Depending on what the actual problem is the solution may be different.
My problem with the hit die and armor was I was comparing it to a wizard or sorcerer, sort of a glass cannon, but seeing it as a more support-based class it makes sense it should have fair survivability.
As far as the problem with spells, it just seemed like a scary idea from the get-go to have such versatility, along with fair survivability and damage.In one case, she cast "concurrent Infusions," a third level spell which let her cast three first level spells at once. She raised two walls with move earth, and Glue-sealed a door... looking at the spell again, she shouldn't really be able to do that, as the spells all have to affect one target.
Aside from that, her 8d8 damage kind of ruined our previous striker's mood, (though not by much, as we barely stick to party roles as it is) even though it took two rounds to cast.
Perhaps I am being too hasty though? should I give it another session, and if more problems arise, then do something?
8d8 averages 36 points of damage. At 8th level if your main striker doesn't blow that out of the water then you have a very unusual party.
That would be for a single round of effort, let alone 2.
In addition, if you and the player don't know how the various spells work, that can of course skew thing heavily.
For example with concurrant infusions the 3 first level all have to effect the same target (i.e. you could cast gravity bow, longshot and magic weapon on a bow but you couldn't cast gravity bow on one bow, lead blades on a sword and expeditious retreat.) The 3 the bow might seem powerful, but actually it is pretty much in line with what other 3rd level spells can do, such as Greater Magic Weapon.
It is higher then baseline blaster damage should be for spell lists of the same level, and it can be prepared ahead of time.
So, yeah, it's a mite overpowered. Especially if you start adding metamagic infusions...starts blowing actual casters out of the water.
Artificers with wands made VERY effective blasters in 3e.
==Aelryinth
If you're looking for a houserule solution, you might like the Tinkerer alchemist archetype I put together.
Honestly looking over the list of infusions I am not seeing a big problem. While the list is larger than most spells know for spontaneous casters the list is really not that good. Blade Barrier seems to be the best offensive infusion which they get at 16th level. The oracle picked up this spell at 12th level. At the same level the artificer is picking up Blade Barrier the bard is picking up Mass Charm Person or Project Image."Blast rod," unless I'm reading it wrong, allows you to prepare a metal rod with 1d8/lvl force damage and release up to 10d8 (if you have that many) as a ray that deals force damage. At level eight, she did 8d8 damage on a ranged touch. Does the fact that that's only a few times per day balance out the amount of damage? Or am I looking at it wrong, and that's not too much damage at all for a third level spell?
At the level the artificer gets this the wizard is getting things like Enervation, Ice Storm, and Phantasmal Killer. I don’t know about you but I would rather take 8d8 points of damage than gain 1d4 negative levels. While Ice Storm does not do as much vs a single target it does hit multiple targets without having to roll to hit, and gets No saving throw, and it also gives penalties to perception and movement.
Blast rod also has a maximum range of 60 feet and requires a ranged touch attack. At 8th level it does twice the damage of a Magic Missile and has 1/3 the range. Considering Blat Rod is a 3rd level infusion being compared to a 1st level spell it looks to be pretty bad.
Seriously the Infusion list is not that good. Also consider that spontaneous casters have ways to increase their spells know. Rings of spell knowledge, mnemonic vestments and pages of spell knowledge can significantly increase the spells know of a spontaneous caster. The human favored class bonus can also increase spells known.
Bad counter example.
at 9th level the wizard is getting cone of cold, which is still doing only d6's of damage and allows a reflex save, but only has a range/AoE of 45 feet.
So, eh. Note that the Rod is also significantly better then the Scorching Ray at that level , 7d6, although the range is lower. Also, the Rod is precast, meaning you can't interrupt it, nor does it trigger an AoO.
You should just stick with the normal d6 by CL effects. As a force effect, it's already better then normal attack dmg spells.
==Aelryinth
Currently running a game of Eberron, where I ruled that artificers own a schematics book similar to an alchemist's formula book, and their daily spell progression is identical to an alchemist's. However, instead of assigning infusions to slots, they prepare their daily "infusions known" using the bard spells known progression, and cast spontaneously from their prepared infusions.
I feel like giving them prepared + spontaneous casting in the Arcanist style would probably fit both thematically, and stay close enough to the original mechanically. I have yet to experience any problems.