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Casters, especially once they reveal themselves as one tend to get priority fire. At least from what I've seen. Hell, my weak as hell kineticist who kept having to drop her backpack to fight effectively (now has a handy haversack so that's over with) would get targeted quite often. Clerics, oracles, and whoever is doing the annoying/dangerous magic effects quickly draw more attention to the melee guys. At least till the barbarian cuts someone in half with one blow.
That said, 10 con isn't really "glass cannon" Still not great. But most casters will be prioritizing something other then con. Standard kineticists though... They're going to be freaking tanks. HP wise at least. But then Con IS their key stat. It's what their DC for abilities is based on. It's what their damage bonus is based on too.
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There's a lot to digest here, so just touching on a few things:
I agree that glass cannoning is fairly selfish a move. Often it's all about totalling the opposition immediately because the alternative is death. It's cumulative kinda deal really: If you do tons of damage, can perform magical shutdowns (some metamagiced ice spells come to mind), etc, but still can't quite win the fight, it's pretty likely you'll get the enemies' undivided attention next. Cue slippery slope to overkill and the rest of the party having nothing to do.
Take my archer, for instance. Shoots 5 arrows each dealing up to 2d6+15 damage, but has only 62 hp at 9th level. I've started to cast a buff spell or two on my first two turns instead of unloading on everything. Usually somebody else gets the enemies' attention and I don't hog the table spotlight either. By the time the unloading happens, I'm no longer in danger.
Anyway, 18 as a starting stat is pretty wasteful. I don't even dump stats anymore, to be honest. Sure it sees me build some characters pretty safe, no fiddly gnome monk/sorcs, but I manage. Can't blame anyone if they do dump though. Big stats ARE exciting! (got me a 32 Str bard).
As for enemy tactics, it depends. One current season boss with 4-5 attacks + poison + precision spike damage focuses on the weakest target first. 5 seasons earlier a certain infamous boss pounded on heavily armored targets. Some foes specifically go for healers, etc.
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An 18 starting casting stat (20 after racial) isn't hard while keeping the character reasonably survivable, though only primary casters should ever do it (bard probably doesn't qualify). Especially wizards & witches since they can just dump Cha for extra stat points. Even an elf wizard can still end up with a 12 Con - and then should probably put their FCB in HP.
Going glass cannon also forces the rest of the party to go high offense so that they can kill things before you die horribly.
As for who enemies target - I will say - my 18 Con dwarf monk with all high defenses wears a pointy hat & robe with stars/moons for a reason. :P
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Sometimes it's luck of the draw (or unluck of the dice). More often the encounter has a combat tactics script. But consider how quickly us players target enemy casters to remove them from the fight. Bad guys can and often do this too. So any caster or otherwise annoying character will need good HP, good AC, something to grant miss chance, or all of the above to survive. Also remember, Magic Missile isn't just auto-hit for players. And color spray is just as nasty in the hands of the enemy as it is in the hands of a good player.
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My Gunslinger has a 10 con, but he has d10 HD, FCB goes to HP, and a decent AC to avoid getting hit in the first place. Completely above and beyond these considerations though I bring my own wand which I ask those who can use it to split between me and my party members, and would would not expect anyone to burn their resources to revive me. In fact if someone offered to blow all their resources to revive me I would thank them, but politely decline. If I die that's on me, and I either have the resources to revive myself or else it was clearly that character's fate to die a gruesome death.
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10 Con is fine for a backline character if you're conservative. You'll still get hit with AE sometimes. Personally I'd go with 12 Con.
Higher caster stats often mean everything, especially at high tier. 5-10% is a lot when it's save or die.
A 12 Dex compared to 10 Dex is meaningless, especially at higher tiers.
If you have no front liners it's a real problem at low levels period, even if everyone has 16 Con.
Often dying in scenarios has nothing to do with your Con, it has to do with crits, bad luck, bad decisions, or a combination of the three.
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Not "Badwrongfun", but in Organized Play you shouldn't be planning on someone else always taking the hit for you. That means either more con, more AC, some other way to avoid being hit, or preferably all three. You don't know what the party composition will be. You don't know if someone is going to always have higher initiative then you and the bad guys (and the ability to anger them enough to ignore you). So you need to plan around NOT having someone else tanking every attack.
Heck, even with a static lodge you can't always know what people will play on a given week.
That said, even in homebrew games having con as your dump stat is a rather bad idea.
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Not "Badwrongfun", but in Organized Play you shouldn't be planning on someone else always taking the hit for you. That means either more con, more AC, some other way to avoid being hit, or preferably all three. You don't know what the party composition will be. You don't know if someone is going to always have higher initiative then you and the bad guys (and the ability to anger them enough to ignore you). So you need to plan around NOT having someone else tanking every attack.
Heck, even with a static lodge you can't always know what people will play on a given week.
That said, even in homebrew games having con as your dump stat is a rather bad idea.
10 isn't 'dump', though. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 -- where you get negative modifiers -- is 'dump', right? Or did the definition change?
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And how many people are going to *know* unless a person gets taken down what their CON is? It's not like it's tattooed on the character's forehead, is it?
No. We're saying that if you have a 10 or less con don't expect other people to pay for it.
"well it take 12 points of damage, and die...
"huh? How does that kill you? you were still standing and you didn't look orcish...
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"well it take 12 points of damage, and die..."huh? How does that kill you? you were still standing and you didn't look orcish...
Which is pretty meta, when you think about it. "You only took an axe blow from that frothing halfling. You should still be standing..." would fall into the same category, wouldn't it?
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10 isn't 'dump', though. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 -- where you get negative modifiers -- is 'dump', right? Or did the definition change?
10 isn't "dump stat", but then again neither is it something that will save your character's life in a crisis. It is Average. You are no more, nor less healthy then the barkeep. Or the farmer. Or the farmer's daughter. Or the cobbler. You get the idea. While 10 isn't a detriment, you are still at a disadvantage by having absolute base hit points.
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Which is pretty meta, when you think about it. "You only took an axe blow from that frothing halfling. You should still be standing..." would fall into the same category, wouldn't it?
Not really. You can tell how hard people are getting hit and whether they should be able to take it. The exact numbers are meta but the narrative is not: there's a difference between a knife in the butt (tough it out!) and a knife going through someone's chest and coming out the back so hard a disembodied voice yells "FINISH HIM"
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10 isn't "dump stat", but then again neither is it something that will save your character's life in a crisis. It is Average. You are no more, nor less healthy then the barkeep. Or the farmer. Or the farmer's daughter. Or the cobbler. You get the idea. While 10 isn't a detriment, you are still at a disadvantage by having absolute base hit points.
So I'm selfish because I want my bard's spells to have the best effectiveness allowed to support the party he's with better?
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Calling someone selfish for how they build their characters con is silly, and in my opinion badwrongfun.
Although I do think you are playing a risky game with 10 game, that is your choice to make. My 5 strength gnome can be just as much a liability, but I understand and accept that. Also I try to let the party know so we can prepare for the problems that it may create.
On the other hand I saw a DM convince people to dump con because "he will never kill players".
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A popular saying in WoW back when I played (and maybe still!) is "a dead rogue's DPS is zero." At any table, my expectation is that all of the players will contribute in some fashion towards the success of the scenario and, honestly, I keep that bar pretty low. Did you succeed at a knowledge check and tell something to the party? That counts. Preserve other allies in some fashion? Awesome. There are very few characters (or players) who fail to clear this hurdle and chances are that if I know who they are, so do at least 5 other people in the lodge.
Where I start drawing the line is when another character starts negatively impacting my ability to play. If I'm playing my archer and chasing you down to heal you with my wand in more than one combat while you seem pretty laissez-faire about the whole thing, that's pretty uncool. Suddenly, I'm no longer feeling like I'm contributing to our shared success. Don't get me wrong, though - I'm fine blowing wand charges to keep you alive. I've blown through a full set of First Aid Gloves in a scenario before and shrugged it off as the cost of doing business with a high DPS and usually very survivable Ranger.
With all that said, I don't mind a 10 CON character if the player still contributes and owns that 10 CON. That's a conscious choice. Just don't expect other people to foot the bill if something bad happens.
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There's very few ways to play that are actually "Badwrongfun". Having low con isn't really one of them. Hell, I've played a few fighters with 6 con over the years. But if you know you've got low hit points, you really should take that into account when working on the rest of your build. Twiggy the Stickman isn't going to charge that troll when he's only got 6 hit points. At least one would hope he isn't. If he does do so however, he'd dang well better be able to avoid being hit.
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My default is 14 con on any character. If I'm 12 or less I've dumped con. It's that simple.
It certainly isn't the expectation that someone else will pay for your death and you are hedging your bets on a 10 con buy.
Not knowing what kind of bard this is I'm sure something like an archer bard have the most demanding stats probably and even that is simple.
STR 7
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 7
CHR 19
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There's nothing wrong with a 10-con bard... as long as it stays far, far away from combat things are usually fine. And it takes a bit of luck to get through the first few levels without being ambushed. You carry a potion of Cure Light with you, tell your friends where it and the wand of CLW are, and then hope you don't get crit. I play lots of average-con characters and the only near-death I've had came from a character with 14 con. It's just a thing that happens sometimes.
Taking an 18 in a primary stat is absolutely not a waste, though, and with a primary caster especially you should have enough points left over to let you up your Con as well.
In any event, I wouldn't count on your friends selling stuff on your behalf to keep your character alive--regardless of what his Con score was. They might be helpful--I sure have been--but it's not a responsibility. I don't think Con 10 or even Con 8 is asking for handouts by definition, though.
In my opinion (and this is only opinion) it's so trivially easy to kill most 1st and some 2nd-level characters that you should generally try not to be too lethal unless they're doing something pretty dumb. Once a character's into 3rd level or so they don't get babied any more and at 8th level the gloves are off. Of course circumstances may change that (sign up for bonekeep?) but if someone just registered for the Confirmation I'm not out for blood.
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And if you need high Int or Cha because it's your casting stat?
Okay, granted starting with 17 base (or 16 plus racial bonus) isn't a bad deal. And it can get you points to spend elsewhere. IMO Con isn't something you should skimp on if you can help it. 12 to 14 should IMO be standard. But that's not always an option.
Then again I've only rarely seen builds where having a 20 in one attribute to start with is a great idea. One of those times is with a kineticist. But then that's usually Con that has the 20. And it is giving you a plethora of benefits beyond simply having more health.
Plethora, I love that word. It just rolls of the tongue so well.
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There's nothing wrong with a 10-con bard... as long as it stays far, far away from combat. And it takes a bit of luck to get through the first few levels. You carry a potion of Cure Light with you, tell your friends where it and the wand of CLW are, and then hope you don't get crit.
Taking an 18 in a primary stat is absolutely not a waste, though, and with a primary caster especially you should have enough points left over to let you up your Con as well.
In any event, I wouldn't count on your friends selling stuff on your behalf to keep your character alive--regardless of what his Con score was. They might! But it's not a responsibility.
In my opinion (and this is only opinion) it's so trivially easy to kill most 1st and some 2nd-level characters that you should generally try not to be too lethal unless they're doing something pretty dumb. Once a character's into 3rd level or so they don't get babied any more and at 8th level the gloves are off. Of course circumstances may change that (sign up for bonekeep?) but if someone just registered for the Confirmation I'm not out for blood.
** spoiler omitted **
I do tend to be right up in the thick of things - though I do stay behind "the Beef". It's worked for 11 levels so far (one more game till retirement) - and I found the 12 DEX to be a greater hinderance than the 10 CON (I bought a DEX belt rather than a CON belt).
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And if you need high Int or Cha because it's your casting stat?
Okay, granted starting with 17 base (or 16 plus racial bonus) isn't a bad deal. And it can get you points to spend elsewhere. IMO Con isn't something you should skimp on if you can help it. 12 to 14 should IMO be standard. But that's not always an option.
Then again I've only rarely seen builds where having a 20 in one attribute to start with is a great idea. One of those times is with a kineticist. But then that's usually Con that has the 20. And it is giving you a plethora of benefits beyond simply having more health.
Plethora, I love that word. It just rolls of the tongue so well.
Most spell casters get an extra 1st level spell for that 20. And higher DCs. And the Stat bumping headband normally comes along about the time they get 2nd level spells - and the 22 nets them an extra 2nd level spell about then... SO many reasons to grab the 20 - for me anyway.
So, which would you put the 12 or 14 in? CON or DEX?
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Honestly, if I'm playing a caster I probably have 16 dex and 14 con. Maybe 12 to 14 Int if that's not my casting stat. Or an 18 Int if it is my casting stat.
Usually at least. I've done a high strength high dex sorcerer build which only had 14 Charisma to start. Then again, that sorcerer is crazy and at one point learned what troll tastes like... mid battle.
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Honestly, if I'm playing a caster I probably have 16 dex and 14 con. Maybe 12 to 14 Int if that's not my casting stat. Or an 18 Int if it is my casting stat.
Usually at least. I've done a high strength high dex sorcerer build which only had 14 Charisma to start. Then again, that sorcerer is crazy and at one point learned what troll tastes like... mid battle.
Stats would be what for a bard?
7, 16, 14, 13, 7, 18? Wow... How would you carry your armor let alone anything else? And that puts the WIS down to -2...My current bard started with 10, 16, 10, 10, 8, 20 - but then she's an Azata Blooded Aasimar.
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Sorcerer, actually. And you forget the human alternate racial trait that lets you get a +2 in two different attributes. So I actually buy 14 dex and 16 charisma. For final stats of
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 18
Depending on concept I may go lower con and Int to get higher strength. Or drop Charisma down to 17 total and raise Int more.
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I've probably written this somewhere, but in general not taking into account that some classes really favor certain stats the system as a whole has a significant disparity in the power of certain stats.
Top tier -
Dex - powers AC, touch AC, CMD, and Reflex saves, ranged attack, Initiative, and 5 skills. Due to armor choices and other things never a reason to have less than 12 (IMO).
Wis - powers will saves and 5 skills. However, the importance of will saves and a couple of the most commonly used skills (Perception & Sense Motive) significantly increases the value.
Middle tier -
Con - powers HP and fort saves. Not really a dump stat for almost any build due to HP but uncommon to need more than 14. Powers no skills.
Int - determines skills per level and powers 14 skills. Borderline low tier in overall importance, especially since skills have a minimum 1 per level. Actually fairly easy to dump mechanically. Makes it back in to mid-tier since there are a lot of ways to get Int to do things outside it's original design
Bottom tier -
Str - determines melee attack, damage, CMB, Carrying capacity, and 2 (not super commonly used) skills. Just not that important unless you're a melee combatant. Can be dumped pretty consistently for non-melee combatants.
Cha - powers 7 skills. Some of those skills are really good/important, but also the most common dump stat for a reason.
As I said any class and build can play around with the importance of a stat though.
(As for nosig's question - I'd generally rather have the Dex, but would be more likely to go 13 Dex 12 Con, unless I had a reason to do otherwise. Of 14 characters I have 3 with 10 CON (alchemist, druid, and cleric - though he can shapechange and get 12), 2 with 16 CON (Oradin and Tank Warpriest), 2 with 14 CON (Swashbuckler and Sorcerer), and 7 with 12 CON )
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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All those words
Yet so little about what actually happened
Getting hit with what should have been an empowered shocking grasp at level 2 by the ultimate of banes in any edition of D&D. A spellcaster whose had time to prep. It was kind of why I was so blase about it because even with my characters who are built using his advice (Fighter HD, Favored class in HP, 14 constitution) death was still something really more likely than not. The better bit of advice in regards to actually not having a character killed. Don't forget your playing up.
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Stats would be what for a bard?
7, 16, 14, 13, 7, 18? Wow... How would you carry your armor let alone anything else? And that puts the WIS down to -2...My current bard started with 10, 16, 10, 10, 8, 20 - but then she's an Azata Blooded Aasimar.
I kept the CHR at 19 to prove only that the build posted in the OP sacrificed CON for no reason. My actual build would probably slightly drop CHR because I'm probably shooting things as an archer every round not casting DC spells.
As for wisdom.. I find most things don't do will saves and those that do have terrible DCs because PFS games are easy. Bard has good will save progression anyway.
I'm sure my actual build as an archer be closer to something such as:
11, 17, 14, 10, 7, 16 as a human
It might be changed depending on exactly what I wanted to do.
Muleback Cords could also easily solve carry capacity issues if it ever actually was a problem.
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There's several options for carrying more stuff for less weight. Masterwork backpacks give a boost to carrying capacity as if you're strength was a little higher. While not very impressive with really low strength, this can be a distinct improvement from 10 or 11 str. And an even larger boost with higher strength.
Handy havarsacks let you store 80 pounds of stuff and quickly access any given item. Yet they way only 5 pounds.
Bags of Holding are the old standby, bosting a static weight regardless of contents and giving a huge carrying capacity. Type 1 bags weight a flat 25 pounds but hold 250 pounds worth of gear. Better ones weigh more, but magnify your carrying capacity by a large degree.
Portable Holes are also an old standby for storage. Just make sure not to put one in a bag of holding, or put a bag of holding in a portable hole. These might have the lowest capacity of the options though.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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You're not breaking any rules by taking a Con 10, then again there's no rule saying other people have to contribute to your Raise Dead. They can voluntarily do so, which is much more likely if other people like the way you play and like your character.
I believe the assumption that 10 is enough if you stay away from the frontline is not a very safe one. Enemies sometimes attack from the back, focus fire on casters in the back, or just blanket everything with area spells.
You're not breaking any rules, but you are playing a risky game.
"But I need a 18/20 casting stat!" - No, you don't need that, you want that. You want it because you want more spells per day and higher DCs. Which are very nice to have, but the power of enemies isn't so that you need these things, they just turn you from good at your job to extremely good at your job.
But you might also be better at your job if you're not constantly in mortal peril; if you have low HP, you'll end up a lot more often in situation where you can either spend your entire turn evading enemies, or hope your spell drops them in one go, because if it doesn't you're dead. If you're a bit sturdier, you get a lot more freedom to operate.
It's something to weigh for yourself. Me, I like going with the 14 Con. I've gone 12 on my first few characters (indeed, glass cannons) and I didn't really like it.
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Personally, I prefer to have a Con of 12 or 14 on my PCs; 10 makes me quite nervous.
That said, if other people want to live dangerously, I won't try to stop them.
Having said that, I would like to point out that you can have a casting stat of 20, and a Con of 14, without utterly gimping you character...
...Say, for example, a Sorceror...
Str 7
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 20
...or a Wizard...
Str 7
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 12
Cha 10
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I was playing last night, and another player was playing Kyra. She apparently has a 14 Charisma. He wanted to deselect while channeling, and could only do 2 people.
GM: Dang! I thought she was better built than that.
Me: What?!
Yeah, this was a secondary or tertiary ability in a 20-point buy, and she was getting slammed for only having a 14. Probably one of the best pregens.
Point is, let people play what they want. There are many ways to pull their weight without needing HP or AC. I gauge whether I want to help get someone raised more on how they interact with the other players and whether they are a very selfish player or not, rather than how they choose to build their characters.
It just so happens, that a lot of selfish players are drawn to play glass cannon type characters. But we shouldn't condemn the build based on that alone. In most cases, its never the build that's the problem, but rather the player.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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A friend in a home campaign was a Life Oracle with 8 CON. His reasoning was that as long as there were allies between him and the enemies, he was fine, as he could cure all wounds. That's fine in theory, but what happened in practice was that enemies saw that he was curing them and rushed to get him first, or that he had to move in close to cure, and then he was on the frontline. He kept complaining to me that he kept going down, but I couldn't help it. Enemies were smart enough to see threats and react to them, and it was always him who was going down first, despite the fact that he wasn't designed for that. When we looked at his character sheet, we noticed the Arcanist had more HP than him.
Conversely, a fellow PFS player did the exact opposite. He thought he was going to get hit anyway, so he tanks DEX on every character and has a CON of 16 or 18. He's going to get hit, but at least he has the HP to survive, is his reasoning. I've tried to convince him it doesn't work that way, as a failed Reflex save deals a lot more damage than his CON can soak, but he hasn't changed his ways yet.
At some point, I feel having high DEX or AC isn't enough anymore. At level 7-ish or so to-hit will outstrip your ability to deflect hits with armour alone. At that point, I feel, it's more important to have an HP buffer, or have spells to help negate attacks (Blur, Mirror Image, Stoneskin). and, at low-level, there's always the stray chance of getting critted to death, or people unfairly ganging up on you. CON isn't all-important, but it's nice to have some so you can fall below 0 without immediately fearing for you life.
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My view is play what you want. I will continue to not make a single character with less than 14 con (barring a -con race, which I don't find as appealing anymore).
I used to make characters with 12 con, but 14 is now the minimum. 12 con is just not enough to me.
But, if you make that 11 con or less character, don't be surprised when your character dies. That's all I'm saying. When I'm GMing, I don't check each person's con. If you get targeted and die because you had bad con, that's not my fault.
Being a caster or archer is not really an excuse. Anyone can get ambushed and anyone can get fireballed.
Again, play what you want, but I'm just telling from my experience that higher Con characters tend to survive more often. In the Pathfinder system, it's an important stat to everyone. Just the way of the system.
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My view is play what you want. I will continue to not make a single character with less than 14 con (barring a -con race, which I don't find as appealing anymore).
I used to make characters with 12 con, but 14 is now the minimum. 12 con is just not enough to me.
But, if you make that 11 con or less character, don't be surprised when your character dies. That's all I'm saying. When I'm GMing, I don't check each person's con. If you get targeted and die because you had bad con, that's not my fault.
Being a caster or archer is not really an excuse. Anyone can get ambushed and anyone can get fireballed.
Again, play what you want, but I'm just telling from my experience that higher Con characters tend to survive more often. In the Pathfinder system, it's an important stat to everyone. Just the way of the system.
It is always worth remembering as you go up that encounters can and do get more...interesting. From a 10-12 module that I GM'd:
Lich casts Maximized Fireball, hitting most of the party.
Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.
Sure, he got better, but that fight had 3 gloves worth of First Aid Gloves utilized for BoL.
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It is always worth remembering as you go up that encounters can and do get more...interesting. From a 10-12 module that I GM'd:
Lich casts Maximized Fireball, hitting most of the party.
Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.Sure, he got better, but that fight had 3 gloves worth of First Aid Gloves utilized for BoL.
Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.
I had completely forgotten that the last time I ran.