We have a guy that is planning to make extensive use of UMD for kinda the Batman theme. Intelligent, special, unique magic items occur moderately frequently in our campaign.
1) Intelligent magic item Ego vs. PC
When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item’s Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for 1 day or until a critical situation occurs.
If the PC's will save is as high as the ego, he will never lose control (as long as nothing negatively affects his save bonus). Correct? Basically, does a 1 on the d20 constitute failure no matter what the total.
2) Can a PC use UMD to emulate not having a class feature or something else the item find objectionable (still DC=20)? Say it hates arcane casters, so the wielder want to emulate not being an arcane caster. Or it hates the wielder having other weapons, so emulate not having other weapons?
3) Say an intelligent item has a Special Purpose and the ability to Detect Special Purpose Foes within 60 feet. Can the PC emulate not being that foe? Same DC (seems like it should be harder)? Will that ability get past the various NonDetection spells and items?
4) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate an alignment (DC=30), he doesn't get the negative level. For how long? Forever, as long as actively wielding, until put down, a day, an hour, etc...
5) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. Wielder has alignment X. Also has another item that bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't Y. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate alignment Y, does that mean he now gets the negative level from the first item (since it would no longer 'think' he was X)?
6) To use an item, the PC would have to emulate both a race (DC=25) and a class feature (DC=20). Does he have to make 2 checks or just the higher check?
7) Item has extra powers if the wielder worships a certain deity. Can you use UMD to emulate worshiping that deity? Like a class feature (DC=20)?
8) Does emulating an evil alignment, to make use of an evil item, count as an evil action?
9) Obviously want the UMD as high as possible. Dangerously Curious trait (+1), Skill Focus UMD (+3/+6), Magical Aptitude (+2/+4), max ranks, and max ability score (headband). Any other rules legal way to raise UMD? Any other feats or spells that help, even temporarily? What about class or archtype features? He was thinking an investigator for the +d6, but not dead set on that.
I only know a couple of these, but since no-one else is answering....
1) Intelligent magic item Ego vs. PC
When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item’s Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for 1 day or until a critical situation occurs.If the PC's will save is as high as the ego, he will never lose control (as long as nothing negatively affects his save bonus). Correct? Basically, does a 1 on the d20 constitute failure no matter what the total.
A 1 on a saving throw (or attack roll) is always an automatic failure.
2) Can a PC use UMD to emulate not having a class feature or something else the item find objectionable (still DC=20)? Say it hates arcane casters, so the wielder want to emulate not being an arcane caster. Or it hates the wielder having other weapons, so emulate not having other weapons?
RAW this is not one of the uses of UMD, and it doesn't have a "you can also do similar things" line, so no. But it's clever and I'd allow it.
3) Say an intelligent item has a Special Purpose and the ability to Detect Special Purpose Foes within 60 feet. Can the PC emulate not being that foe? Same DC (seems like it should be harder)? Will that ability get past the various NonDetection spells and items?
4) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate an alignment (DC=30), he doesn't get the negative level. For how long? Forever, as long as actively wielding, until put down, a day, an hour, etc...
5) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. Wielder has alignment X. Also has another item that bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't Y. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate alignment Y, does that mean he now gets the negative level from the first item (since it would no longer 'think' he was X)?
Dunno :-(
6) To use an item, the PC would have to emulate both a race (DC=25) and a class feature (DC=20). Does he have to make 2 checks or just the higher check?...
Every emulation (race, class, ability score) you need to do needs its own check.
1, 2, and 6 are all answered correctly by Fuzzy-Wuzzy (by RAW, you can only use UMD "as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.").
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
...
Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.
Given that:
3) It sounds like you're being targeted by the intelligent item, not actually using it. UMD only lets you use items, it doesn't let you deceive items that you aren't using into believing you are something else. If you're talking about e.g. a "defeat/slay elves" special purpose and you are an elf wanting to wield the item, you can UMD to emulate that you are a dwarf instead, since emulating a different race is allowed by UMD. Whether or not that racial emulation would subsequently apply the "detect special purpose foes" dedicated power is not completely clear, and will likely see table variation (since the item is activating the power, it is not activated through any action on the wielder's part).
UMD only applies to the item you rolled the check for, it does not change your race, alignment, or class features. Therefore divination spells and the like are unaffected by it.
4) You must make a check once per hour to keep emulating that alignment as long as you are wielding that item.
5) No. Using UMD lets you use a magic item as if you were a different alignment. It does not change your alignment, it just allows you to use the specific magic item you rolled UMD for as if your alignment was different. Nothing outside of the item you rolled UMD for is impacted by your alignment choice.
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Using UMD to trick an Intelligent item doesn't sound very feasible.
Character: I'm an Elf
Item: No, you are not an Elf
Character: Yes I am
Item: If you were an Elf, you wouldn't sleep
Character: I don't sleep, I'm an Elf
Item: You were sleeping last night
Character: No, I was Meditating, I'm an Elf
Item: Dude, you were snoring.
Using UMD to trick an Intelligent item doesn't sound very feasible.
Character: I'm an Elf
Item: No, you are not an Elf
Character: Yes I am
Item: If you were an Elf, you wouldn't sleep
Character: I don't sleep, I'm an Elf
Item: You were sleeping last night
Character: No, I was Meditating, I'm an Elf
Item: Dude, you were snoring.
It would depend on why the item cares about elves.
If the item just doesn't *want* to give bonuses out to non-elves, then you have a problem.
If the item was designed from the start in such a way that it would not interact favorably with non-elven creatures, then using UMD to trick your way past these is totally legit so long as the item's intelligence doesn't particularly care one way or another.
The rules are silent on this topic, but by RAW UMD works, so the second is probably the more reasonable one since it is consistent with the actual rules
I'm not sure I would even allow UMD on intelligent items. I treat intelligent items like another PC, or NPC, in the party. As in, an NPC that you care about (it's easy to use bluff to deceive a town guard, but probably not a good idea to deceive your cohort; not if you want him to continue being your cohort).
Intelligent items can see/hear what's going on around them. They observe and remember things. They THINK for themselves. For all these reasons, it seems impractical for something as banal as UMD to affect them.
Maybe, just maybe, I'd consider when first handling an intelligent item. UMD to convince it of something that isn't physically obvious (like faking an alignment rather than faking a race). But the very first time UMD fails on that, the item will figure it out, remember it (so it doesn't work ever again) and almost certainly be resentful that you lied to it. Not good for building a relationship with any NPC, even just an intelligent item.
Sorry, can you clearly answer to this part of number 3 question?
"Will that ability get past the various NonDetection spells and items?"
Thank you very much.
Based on what everyone is saying, I think not.
We have a guy that is planning to make extensive use of UMD for kinda the Batman theme. Intelligent, special, unique magic items occur moderately frequently in our campaign.
1) Intelligent magic item Ego vs. PC
When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item’s Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for 1 day or until a critical situation occurs.If the PC's will save is as high as the ego, he will never lose control (as long as nothing negatively affects his save bonus). Correct? Basically, does a 1 on the d20 constitute failure no matter what the total.
1 is an auto fail on a save.
2) Can a PC use UMD to emulate not having a class feature or something else the item find objectionable (still DC=20)? Say it hates arcane casters, so the wielder want to emulate not being an arcane caster. Or it hates the wielder having other weapons, so emulate not having other weapons?
Not a listed option.
UMD is about faking having something, not faking a lack.3) Say an intelligent item has a Special Purpose and the ability to Detect Special Purpose Foes within 60 feet. Can the PC emulate not being that foe? Same DC (seems like it should be harder)? Will that ability get past the various NonDetection spells and items?
The PC can use magic to avoid detection. May need bluff also.
UMD is not an option.4) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate an alignment (DC=30), he doesn't get the negative level. For how long? Forever, as long as actively wielding, until put down, a day, an hour, etc...
5) Certain magic item bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't X. Wielder has alignment X. Also has another item that bestows a negative level if the wielder's alignment isn't Y. If the wielder uses UMD to emulate alignment Y, does that mean he now gets the negative level from the first item (since it would no longer 'think' he was X)?
UMD check is good for one hour.
UMD does not change your alignment. It fakes having another.
Spells do not change your alignment. They fake having another or not having any.
The negative level is based on the item's alignment and your alignment.
UMD / Spells won't affect that.
Some bestow the level while wielding, others while holding / carrying, and others may work even from within an extradimensional space.
6) To use an item, the PC would have to emulate both a race (DC=25) and a class feature (DC=20). Does he have to make 2 checks or just the higher check?
Two checks.
7) Item has extra powers if the wielder worships a certain deity. Can you use UMD to emulate worshiping that deity? Like a class feature (DC=20)?
Not a listed option.
Bluff might work.8) Does emulating an evil alignment, to make use of an evil item, count as an evil action?
No more than emulating the ability to channel lets you channel.
Using the item, however, may be an evil act.9) Obviously want the UMD as high as possible. Dangerously Curious trait (+1), Skill Focus UMD (+3/+6), Magical Aptitude (+2/+4), max ranks, and max ability score (headband). Any other rules legal way to raise UMD? Any other feats or spells that help, even temporarily? What about class or archtype features? He was thinking an investigator for the +d6, but not dead set on that.
Feats:
Artifact HunterDivine Deception
Wretched Curator
Equipment:
Masterwork tool
Magic items
Altar of Nethys
Scimitar of the Spellthief
Wand Key Ring
Traits
Adaptive Magic
Arcane Archivist
Artifact Hunter
Bauble Fascination
Partial Protege
Secret Scrolls
Underlying Principles
/cevah
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9) Obviously want the UMD as high as possible. Dangerously Curious trait (+1), Skill Focus UMD (+3/+6), Magical Aptitude (+2/+4), max ranks, and max ability score (headband). Any other rules legal way to raise UMD? Any other feats or spells that help, even temporarily? What about class or archtype features? He was thinking an investigator for the +d6, but not dead set on that.
Play an Occultist. For the love of all that is good and holy, if you want UMD you want an Occultist with the Pragmatic Activator trait. Plus you get to use your OWN gadgets if everything else goes kaput.
If you get the chance, maybe take a few levels in Scavenger Investigator. More gadgets for yourself, and that lovely 1d6 of Inspiration. In addition, at second level you can use one of your prepared gadgets to make UMD easier on a mechanics-based Magic Device.
Play an Occultist. For the love of all that is good and holy, if you want UMD you want an Occultist with the Pragmatic Activator trait. Plus you get to use your OWN gadgets if everything else goes kaput.
If you get the chance, maybe take a few levels in Scavenger Investigator. More gadgets for yourself, and that lovely 1d6 of Inspiration. In addition, at second level you can use one of your prepared gadgets to make UMD easier on a mechanics-based Magic Device.
An Occultist gets 4+Int skills per level, and is an Int caster. You need that trait to change UMD to Int.
The Oracle has the same skills per level, and is a Cha caster. No trait needed, so you can get a trait that does something for you rather than for swapping the modifier.
If you really want the psychic classes, the Mesmerist gets 6+Int skills per level and is a Cha caster, so no trait needed.
I think the Ninja is best as Cha controls ki, so is already a power stat. And you get 8+Int skills per level. Again no trait needed. Also, as a rogue, he is already in the go-to batman class, thematically.
At 14th level, my ninja has a 26 mod for UMD. [Would be 3 higher, but I needed the skill ranks elsewhere.] At this level, he can automatically cast from a CL 7 scroll, decipher a CL 2 scroll in a minute or up to a CL 21 scroll eventually. He can emulate a stat of 12 every time, and has a good chance to emulate better. With his 18 Int and 20 Cha, stat emulation is not really needed. [No 9th level int spells encountered yet.] I was going for CL 13 scroll so I could do Simulacrum, but we are not there yet.
/cevah
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Play an Occultist. For the love of all that is good and holy, if you want UMD you want an Occultist with the Pragmatic Activator trait. Plus you get to use your OWN gadgets if everything else goes kaput.
If you get the chance, maybe take a few levels in Scavenger Investigator. More gadgets for yourself, and that lovely 1d6 of Inspiration. In addition, at second level you can use one of your prepared gadgets to make UMD easier on a mechanics-based Magic Device.
An Occultist gets 4+Int skills per level, and is an Int caster. You need that trait to change UMD to Int.
The Oracle has the same skills per level, and is a Cha caster. No trait needed, so you can get a trait that does something for you rather than for swapping the modifier.
If you really want the psychic classes, the Mesmerist gets 6+Int skills per level and is a Cha caster, so no trait needed.
I think the Ninja is best as Cha controls ki, so is already a power stat. And you get 8+Int skills per level. Again no trait needed. Also, as a rogue, he is already in the go-to batman class, thematically.
At 14th level, my ninja has a 26 mod for UMD. [Would be 3 higher, but I needed the skill ranks elsewhere.] At this level, he can automatically cast from a CL 7 scroll, decipher a CL 2 scroll in a minute or up to a CL 21 scroll eventually. He can emulate a stat of 12 every time, and has a good chance to emulate better. With his 18 Int and 20 Cha, stat emulation is not really needed. [No 9th level int spells encountered yet.] I was going for CL 13 scroll so I could do Simulacrum, but we are not there yet.
/cevah
I truly am sorry, Cevah, but you're missing my point entirely. The Occultist is 4+Int, yes, but Int is also its highest or second-highest stat, it has the two "best" saves, gets to use its own gadgets for the Batman theme, makes for the second-best detective in the game with Object Reading and, above all, and I cannot overstate this enough, it gets half its level added to all Use Magic Device checks. It completely demolishes UMD checks and can tell the properties of any magic object with stupendous ease, no Spellcraft required.
Enchanter Occultists make really good faces anyway, so you might not even need that trait, and you'll get a decent bonus to all Cha-based checks which would then include UMD. Without the trait, you won't be as streamlined but you'll still be pumping out the numbers.
DM_Blake is completely correct in this. This is not just his opinion this is actually in the rules for intelligent items.
Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence.
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.
Since UMD does not work on a character it will not work on an intelligent magic item. But disguise may work.
I truly am sorry, Cevah, but you're missing my point entirely. The Occultist is 4+Int, yes, but Int is also its highest or second-highest stat, it has the two "best" saves, gets to use its own gadgets for the Batman theme, makes for the second-best detective in the game with Object Reading and, above all, and I cannot overstate this enough, it gets half its level added to all Use Magic Device checks. It completely demolishes UMD checks and can tell the properties of any magic object with stupendous ease, no Spellcraft required.
Enchanter Occultists make really good faces anyway, so you might not even need that trait, and you'll get a decent bonus to all Cha-based checks which would then include UMD. Without the trait, you won't be as streamlined but you'll still be pumping out the numbers.
I was unaware of the object reading and of the 1/2 level bonus.
With those, it does pull out ahead.
/cevah