I find the idea of liquid blades incredibly cool. They'd make for great assassination weapons (easy to dispose of, and the fact that the blade evaporates into nothing means you'd have to know it's a liquid blade flask to realize it's a potential murder weapon), and the fact that they can have poisons added in as part of the process of making them means removing the step of applying poison to them during a battle (unless I have spare poison and I want to). I'm pretty sure it'd be more convenient to use a traditional ranged weapon to deliver poisons, but I love the image of someone just yanking a flask from his bandolier, uncorking it, and whipping the liquid out into a gnarly crystalline blade. And if he fails to deliver the poison in a blade, he can just toss it aside and draw a new one. AESTHETIC.
That being said, there's a few questions I have regarding them...
1 - Can one add enhancement bonuses to a liquid blade via craft magic arms and armor? It seems like having them unable to take weapon qualities would be one of the worse disadvantages to using them in lieu of traditional weaponry.
2 - How exactly do liquid blades interact with the quick draw feat? It allows weapons to be drawn as a free action (assuming they aren't hidden), but also states alchemical items can't be. A liquid blade is both, though. Which rule takes precedence here?
3 - I wanted to use this with a grippli, since they can have the ability to create their own poisons via the toxic skin racial trait. However, grippli poison goes inert after one hour. Does this mean if I use it to create a liquid blade, I need to use that blade within the hour, or does that duration only begin when I pop the blade open?
4 - Emptying the contents of a liquid blade tube is a move action. Would this be considered drawing it, or would this be its own action? Either way this kind of goes hand in hand with my second question (since this means it could be as little as a free action to use, or as much as two move actions).
5 - How would the swift poison and lasting poison rogue talents interact with adding a poison to a liquid blade? I don't mean adding it after it's been "unsheathed" but rather the act of mixing the poison into the liquid, which according to the liquid blade rules is a full-round action. My assumption is that, since it's a rule specific to liquid blades, that'd make it a full-round action still for swift poison, but since lasting poison states that it reduces full-round application of poison via the talent to a standard action, I'm again not sure which rule takes precedence.
6 - Speaking of lasting poison, would that even be usable with the liquid blade's special poison application?
7 - Lastly, this one's not so much about liquid blades as it is about lasting poison itself: the description states that the poison has a reduced effect and saves against the poison get a +2 circumstance bonus. What precisely is the "reduced effect" mentioned? Is that referring to the bonus to saves against it, or is it a different effect, and if the latter, what is that effect (if not something the DM is meant to decide)?
8 - I noticed as I was grabbing the links for this that there's a second version of lasting poison specific to unchained rogue. Can a slayer take this version of the talent, or would they be limited to the core rogue version?
I find the idea of liquid blades incredibly cool. They'd make for great assassination weapons (easy to dispose of, and the fact that the blade evaporates into nothing means you'd have to know it's a liquid blade flask to realize it's a potential murder weapon), and the fact that they can have poisons added in as part of the process of making them means removing the step of applying poison to them during a battle (unless I have spare poison and I want to). I'm pretty sure it'd be more convenient to use a traditional ranged weapon to deliver poisons, but I love the image of someone just yanking a flask from his bandolier, uncorking it, and whipping the liquid out into a gnarly crystalline blade. And if he fails to deliver the poison in a blade, he can just toss it aside and draw a new one. AESTHETIC.
That being said, there's a few questions I have regarding them...
1 - Can one add enhancement bonuses to a liquid blade via craft magic arms and armor? It seems like having them unable to take weapon qualities would be one of the worse disadvantages to using them in lieu of traditional weaponry.
2 - How exactly do liquid blades interact with the quick draw feat? It allows weapons to be drawn as a free action (assuming they aren't hidden), but also states alchemical items can't be. A liquid blade is both, though. Which rule takes precedence here?
3 - I wanted to use this with a grippli, since they can have the ability to create their own poisons via the toxic skin racial trait. However, grippli poison goes inert after one hour. Does this mean if I use it to create a liquid blade, I need to use that blade within the hour, or does that duration...
1) You can't add an enhancement bonus to the liquid blade because it isn't a weapon until used, only lasts for 10 minutes once used and isn't masterwork. A class feature that lets you add an enhancement bonus like the Divine Bond paladin feature could add an enhancement bonus.
2) For the 10 minutes the blade exists it works just like a short sword. You cannot quickdraw it before it is a weapon.
3) Yes, if you use it on the liquid blade you have 1 hour to use the liquid blade.
4 - Emptying the contents of a liquid blade tube is a move action. Would this be considered drawing it, or would this be its own action? Either way this kind of goes hand in hand with my second question (since this means it could be as little as a free action to use, or as much as two move actions).
5 - How would the swift poison and lasting poison rogue talents interact with adding a poison to a liquid blade? I don't mean adding it after it's been "unsheathed" but rather the act of mixing the poison into the liquid, which according to the liquid blade rules is a full-round action. My assumption is that, since it's a rule specific to liquid blades, that'd make it a full-round action still for swift poison, but since lasting poison states that it reduces full-round application of poison via the talent to a standard action, I'm again not sure which rule takes precedence.
6 - Speaking of lasting poison, would that even be usable with the liquid blade's special poison application?
7 - Lastly, this one's not so much about liquid blades as it is about lasting poison itself: the description states that the poison has a reduced effect and saves against the poison get a +2 circumstance bonus. What precisely is the "reduced effect" mentioned? Is that referring to the bonus to saves against it, or is it a different effect, and if the latter, what is that effect (if not something the DM is meant to decide)?
Oops missed some questions
4)No, it is a move action to retrieve a stored item, i.e. the tube, and then a move action to use the tube. If the tube is already in hand it is just a move action to use it and have the weapon ready to use. So quickdraw is of no use for liquid blades.
5)Swift poison and lasting poison have no effect on a liquid blade. They only apply to applying poison to weapons not making alchemical items that have poison in them.
6)Lasting poison only affects applying poison to a weapon not the construction of alchemical items with poison in them.
7)The referred bonus is the decreased effectiveness.
Alrighty. Most of that was pretty much what I was assuming. That means if I'm drawing/using a liquid blade, I'd need some means to draw items as a swift or free action and/or to reduce the activation to a swift or free action to be able to take it out and attack on the same turn (such as a tiefling's grasping tail, by just dumping all my liquid blades on the ground and utilizing kick up, using a vanara with the prehensile tail racial trait, or the 3pp feat organized inventory). Also, while I still like the idea of this being a grippli, it's nice to know toxic skin doesn't really give me that much of an edge over other races, meaning I could pick one with +Dex/+Int instead. It also means I can skip both swift and lasting poison.
It's pretty unfortunate that lasting poison doesn't work; I assumed that because pouring a poison into a liquid blade acts as applying poison to a weapon other than making it a full-round action, lasting poison should at least function with it. Does it being an alchemical item override this? And if so what was the point of them saying in the text that the action acts as adding poison to a weapon?
I do have a couple more non-rhetorical questions, though, that I forgot to ask before:
9 - Would a liquid blade work with splintering weapon? I'm guessing not since it's pretty safe to assume a weapon made via alchemy uses the opposite of primitive materials, but nothing is stated as to what reagents are used to compose a liquid blade, and if its material is considered to be glass or if one of the components is bone dust or crushed glass or something along those lines... anyway, it's a long shot, and the added damage probably isn't worth it, but if I intend to dispose of the weapon once its poison doses are expended, I may as well get something out of it if at all possible.
10 - Do the effects of instant alchemy and master alchemist stack? Since liquid blades cost 40 gp, they would normally take 400 points of progress. This drops to 40 progress via master alchemist though, meaning I'd need to roll a 3 on craft (alchemy) rather than a 27, making it very likely I'll have the item done in less than a day or two rather than nearly a full week even if I had no ranks in craft (alchemy) and guaranteeing success on anything more than a natural 1 if I have a rank and it's a class skill. Assuming it costs 20% more to craft a liquid blade via spontaneous alchemy, that's still only increasing its price to 48 gp, meaning I just need a 4 to finish it. Unfortunately I haven't seen anything indicating a specific recipe to craft a liquid blade, so spontaneous alchemy may not even be possible with it, in which case instant alchemy would be pointless anyway.
Alrighty. Most of that was pretty much what I was assuming. That means if I'm drawing/using a liquid blade, I'd need some means to draw items as a swift or free action and/or to reduce the activation to a swift or free action to be able to take it out and attack on the same turn (such as a tiefling's grasping tail, by just dumping all my liquid blades on the ground and utilizing kick up, using a vanara with the prehensile tail racial trait, or the 3pp feat organized inventory). Also, while I still like the idea of this being a grippli, it's nice to know toxic skin doesn't really give me that much of an edge over other races, meaning I could pick one with +Dex/+Int instead. It also means I can skip both swift and lasting poison.
It's pretty unfortunate that lasting poison doesn't work; I assumed that because pouring a poison into a liquid blade acts as applying poison to a weapon other than making it a full-round action, lasting poison should at least function with it. Does it being an alchemical item override this? And if so what was the point of them saying in the text that the action acts as adding poison to a weapon?
I do have a couple more non-rhetorical questions, though, that I forgot to ask before:
9 - Would a liquid blade work with splintering weapon? I'm guessing not since it's pretty safe to assume a weapon made via alchemy uses the opposite of primitive materials, but nothing is stated as to what reagents are used to compose a liquid blade, and if its material is considered to be glass or if one of the components is bone dust or crushed glass or something along those...
I just reread liquid blade and you are right it does say that it works like applying the poison to a weapon. I had misread and thought that the poison was applied when the liquid blade was created. However, this doesn't change anything for swift poison or lasting poison because the item is already altering the length of time to perform the poison.
9)The only requirement for splintering weapon is that it have the fragile property so splintering weapon would work.
10) I am not familiar enough with those abilities to comment on that question.
To be fair I misworded it myself in the initial post; my intent was to add the poison as soon as the liquid blade is made, so I stated it as being part of the creation, even though it's actually two different processes. I'm going to take lasting poison regardless of whether it can function with adding poison to a liquid blade, since I could still apply poison after the liquid blade has been turned into a weapon, it'll just make doing so less convenient since I'd have to do so mid-fight. And no worries about the latter question; I decided for the sake of feat economy not to take instant alchemy, and I can just have the character make his liquid blades on days spent not adventuring.
As far as a swift draw goes (and to further build on the concept you have), you're looking for a spring-loaded wrist sheath.
With regards to enchanting it, I don't think you can do anything better than greater magic weapon.
Since you can infuse a poison into its creation, you could maybe *MAYBE* make an argument for infusing a potion of greater magic weapon into its construction (I'd be inclined to allow it since you wouldn't be getting the full duration and it's a significant gold investment.)
As far as a swift draw goes (and to further build on the concept you have), you're looking for a spring-loaded wrist sheath.
With regards to enchanting it, I don't think you can do anything better than greater magic weapon.
Since you can infuse a poison into its creation, you could maybe *MAYBE* make an argument for infusing a potion of greater magic weapon into its construction (I'd be inclined to allow it since you wouldn't be getting the full duration and it's a significant gold investment.)
A spring-loaded wrist sheath could be an option, although I've already decided on switching this guy to vanara to take advantage of the prehensile tail. Still, it's a viable option, and has the same level of "cool factor" I think. I'd probably go for a vanishing sheath when I can afford it too, assuming I could put an alchemical item into it as I could with a mundane spring-loaded wrist sheath.
I kinda figured spells would be my best chance of enhancing the blades. Unfortunately I'm using a stygian slayer for this, so while I could use some wands and scrolls, ones for greater magic weapon are gonna be tougher to use since stygian slayers only treat illusion spells as being in their spell list. And even then, they don't get spells per day or anything, they need equipment for it. I'd need to rely on an ally to cast spells on my weapons.
The last suggestion is good for a home-rules campaign, but absolutely not RAW from my understanding. As I mentioned, I kinda misspoke in regards to poisons being mixed in: they are still a separate action from creating the liquid blade, it's just that liquid blades allow you to add a dose of poison before they actually are turned into weapons. You can't mix a potion into one, since it specifies poison. Although I'll admit, I'd probably allow any potion containing a spell that affects a weapon if I was GM in regards to this kind of build. But then I'd also count flicking the blade out as drawing it.
I appreciate the suggestions, this'll help out a lot~
I was actually thinking about how liquid blades would work with a magus or warpriest, Zwords. Yeah, if anything, I'd probably have to do as Gulthor suggested and have the liquid blades enchanted via spells. Unfortunately I don't believe any of the classes with access to such abilities can use the poison use class feature.
Toxicant was something I was looking into, and alchemist was honestly the first class I thought of when I first wanted to make a liquid blade user. It seems like a decent idea too, and the poison one can make is pretty potent, and since no duration is listed for it before it goes inert like there is for grippli poison, it seems perfect for liquid blades. Definitely something to consider. However, I was looking to use a full BAB class for this, which is why I went with a slayer.
What you say about lasting poison is exactly what I was thinking: that it would apply the added duration, but leave the time it takes to mix the poison in untouched. That's part of why I was asking about using the unchained version of it too; it's pretty much the same as the alchemist's sticky poison discovery, just using Dex instead of Int, where the original version is a flat two uses no matter what.
Sadly a lot of this is gray GM area, because the game doesn’t support alchemical items well. But here are my thoughts, I’ve always been an poison alchemical item fanboy so over the years I’ve used them a lot and learned a lot about how they’re typically perceived. So take it with a grain of salt.
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Poison is pretty hard to just "dip" into using. Its generally going to end up vastly ineffective. But specializing in it can be fun, if done properly~
It is my favorite build
You may like the new Unchained poison rules, they fix some of the issues and makes poisons a little more viable for builds, and a little more realistic to use. Sadly still expensive without a free racial poison to use. But a definite improvement overall.
Arcane Strike is a handy low level feat that applies to ALL weapons used in a round. Swift action: weapon held becomes magical, does +1 attack, +1 Damage, requires ability to use ANY arcane spells. Cantrips count.
[Poison + Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)]+ [Second attack Poison+2 Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)] is a hell of a combo.
Can't Grippli get a prehensile tongue? And if you apply the poison later instead of on creation, you could use toxic skin without worrying about it expiring.
Sadly a lot of this is gray GM area, because the game doesn’t support alchemical items well. But here are my thoughts, I’ve always been an poison alchemical item fanboy so over the years I’ve used them a lot and learned a lot about how they’re typically perceived. So take it with a grain of salt.
...
Poison is pretty hard to just "dip" into using. Its generally going to end up vastly ineffective. But specializing in it can be fun, if done properly~
It is my favorite build
You may like the new Unchained poison rules, they fix some of the issues and makes poisons a little more viable for builds, and a little more realistic to use. Sadly still expensive without a free racial poison to use. But a definite improvement overall.
Arcane Strike is a handy low level feat that applies to ALL weapons used in a round. Swift action: weapon held becomes magical, does +1 attack, +1 Damage, requires ability to use ANY arcane spells. Cantrips count.
[Poison + Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)]+ [Second attack Poison+2 Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)] is a hell of a combo.
I was actually considering Arcane Strike, but I don't know if I could qualify as a stygian slayer, since they only count as knowing arcane magic for the purpose of activating spell trigger/completion items. I'm also unsure if alchemists' extracts count as arcane magic. However, it's easy enough to pick up a cantrip via traits and feats.
Now that I look at it, an alchemist may be just as good as a slayer. I get less out of powerful poisoning, but if I go with a vivisectionist I can replace it with treacherous toxin. As has already been pointed out, toxicant is a great match for this if I'm not worried about PFS compliance, and if I am, I could go grippli or ratfolk and take their unique alchemist archetypes (although I'm not sure if the plague bringer's disease can be used with the liquid blade's version of poison application; it's worth looking into, though).
Can't Grippli get a prehensile tongue? And if you apply the poison later instead of on creation, you could use toxic skin without worrying about it expiring.
They do get a tongue, but it's more designed to increase their reach. It can grab lightweight object up to 10 feet away, make melee touch attacks, and perform sleight of hand checks, steal, and disarm. While that's pretty nice, it doesn't do what I need it to, which is to reduce the time it takes to withdraw an item. Since activating a liquid blade is a move action, I need getting the item to be swift, immediate, or free, and the only ways to get that to happen are the vanara racial prehensile tail, or the tiefling feat that does the same. Also, my understanding of grippli poison is that the 1-hour duration starts when it's first created, not whenever it's applied to an item.
how would you keep up your supply of liquid blades. from how i understand crafting the creation of one alchemical item takes 8 hours. if you want a water sword you can summon at will and banished when ever you want take a few lvls of water Kineticist and focus on Kinetic Blade (it can be any element)
I plan to create any liquid blades during the downtime between campaigns, assuming the DM allows it. Since each blade lasts 10 minutes, I don't see myself using up more than one or two each combat, so as long as I have at least 10 on hand at any one time I feel like I should be fine.
I was actually considering Arcane Strike, but I don't know if I could qualify as a stygian slayer, since they only count as knowing arcane magic for the purpose of activating spell trigger/completion items. I'm also unsure if alchemists' extracts count as arcane magic. However, it's easy enough to pick up a cantrip via traits and feats.Sadly a lot of this is gray GM area, because the game doesn’t support alchemical items well. But here are my thoughts, I’ve always been an poison alchemical item fanboy so over the years I’ve used them a lot and learned a lot about how they’re typically perceived. So take it with a grain of salt.
...
Poison is pretty hard to just "dip" into using. Its generally going to end up vastly ineffective. But specializing in it can be fun, if done properly~
It is my favorite buildYou may like the new Unchained poison rules, they fix some of the issues and makes poisons a little more viable for builds, and a little more realistic to use. Sadly still expensive without a free racial poison to use. But a definite improvement overall.
Arcane Strike is a handy low level feat that applies to ALL weapons used in a round. Swift action: weapon held becomes magical, does +1 attack, +1 Damage, requires ability to use ANY arcane spells. Cantrips count.
[Poison + Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)]+ [Second attack Poison+2 Sneak + Shatter (Bleed)] is a hell of a combo.
The cantrips gained through traits and feats are SLA's so you can't use them to get or advance Arcane Strike. Stygian Slayers don't qualify either. As you suspected, Alchemists don't qualify as arcane casters. However the Spell Knowledge Discovery lets them cast a single spell, and that does let them take and advance Arcane Strike.