Witch with scribe scroll


Rules Questions


Hi,

Could a witch with the scribe scroll feat and the read magic spell be able to read a spell from a wizard's spellbook, and write it on a scroll (provided it's on the witch spell list)?

The final goal being, of course, to feed that scroll to her familiar, and thus gaining access to casting that scroll herself.

Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.


Here's the feat text:

"You can create magic scrolls.

Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price."

Bolded the relevant part. You must know the spell, not just be copying it from another source.


Corvino wrote:

Here's the feat text:

"You can create magic scrolls.

Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price."

Bolded the relevant part. You must know the spell, not just be copying it from another source.

The crafting rules, though, have a slightly different take on it:

If you need another character to supply one of an item's requirements (such as if you're a wizard creating an item with a divine spell), both you and the other character must be present for the entire duration of the crafting process. If the GM is using the downtime system, both you and the other character must use downtime at the same time for this purpose. Only you make the skill check to complete the item — or, if there is a chance of creating a cursed item, the GM makes the check in secret.

If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character's spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC's spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.

Even with this, however, you need another caster to supply the spell; you could work with a sorcerer to scribe a spell she knows, but by RAW cannot learn from a wizard's spell book without another caster being present.


Slightly pedantic, but specific trumps general. The feat text says you need to know the spell. That's pretty specific.


Corvino wrote:
Slightly pedantic, but specific trumps general. The feat text says you need to know the spell. That's pretty specific.

And also very much a minority opinion. Forum consensus is that the "you" in that feat refers to the creator(s) in general.

But you're welcome to house rule it how you like, of course.

Liberty's Edge

@ Corvino

The rule has been clarified several times by SKR and other Devs, all the crafters count as the creator of the item and one of them can supply the spell and another the feat.
When making scrolls the one that know the spell should have it memorized or have it as one of his know spells if a spontaneous caster, but there is no need for him to be the one with the feat.


Diego Rossi wrote:

@ Corvino

The rule has been clarified several times by SKR and other Devs, all the crafters count as the creator of the item and one of them can supply the spell and another the feat.
When making scrolls the one that know the spell should have it memorized or have it as one of his know spells if a spontaneous caster, but there is no need for him to be the one with the feat.

I agree but the thing is if a wizard assist the witch, it will be a wizard spell scroll not a witch spell scroll, so no a witch can't use the scroll to put the spell on her spell list ;)

Liberty's Edge

Loengrin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

@ Corvino

The rule has been clarified several times by SKR and other Devs, all the crafters count as the creator of the item and one of them can supply the spell and another the feat.
When making scrolls the one that know the spell should have it memorized or have it as one of his know spells if a spontaneous caster, but there is no need for him to be the one with the feat.

I agree but the thing is if a wizard assist the witch, it will be a wizard spell scroll not a witch spell scroll, so no a witch can't use the scroll to put the spell on her spell list ;)

Not at all.

There isn't a "wizard scroll" vs. "sorcerer scroll" vs "witch scroll" vs "bard scroll" difference.
There is a "arcane scroll" vs "divine scroll" and a "in your spell list" vs. "not in your spell list" difference.

A witch don't even care if a scroll is arcane or divine, only if it is in her spell list or not. The rule is:

PRD wrote:

Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the

witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.

No mention or divine or arcane scroll. So the only thing that matter is if the specific spell is in the witch spell list.


There's no mention of cooperative crafting in the OP's post. The question was about a Witch with Scribe Scroll transcribing from a Wizard's Spellbook. You can buy or loot Spellbooks as well as borrow them.

But really, why cooperatively craft a scroll from a Wizard's Spellbook? Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at level 1, and only a couple of sub-par Archetypes trade that out. Or you're playing PFS in which case crafting is off the table anyway. If you're in a position to cooperative craft a scroll from their spellbook, said Wizard could just do it for you.


Just some nitpicking, then: can a witch scribe scrolls in the first place?

According to the scribe scroll feat, "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know." But the witch doesn't know any spells: her familiar does.

Wouldn't this imply that witches have no use for the scribe scroll feat, like barbarians or rogues?

Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.

Liberty's Edge

The descriptions of the alchemist, arcanist and magus classes specify that they can read a wizard's spellbook. The witch class description says nothing of the kind, so I would have to say that a witch cannot learn a spell from a wizard's spellbook.

@Krioisos
I think a witch can scribe a scroll. Having communed with her familiar, she knows the spell just as a wizard knows a spell after studying his spellbook.


Perhaps not a purely rhetorical question, then: what does it mean to know a spell, in general:
1. to have learned it (sorcerer), copied it into your spellbook (wizard), or have had your familiar learn it (witch), or
2. to have 'refreshed' it in the morning, thus enabling you to cast it that day?
Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.

Silver Crusade

You have to have it prepared to be able to craft it into a scroll, so option #2

Liberty's Edge

You need both options to craft a scroll, AFAIK.
A 7th level magus get the Knowledge Pool and can memorize any magus spells expending some arcane point, but he can't write them in his spellbook as he hasn't learned them.

You know a spell when it is one spell that you have learned as a spontaneous spellcaster, one that your familiar know if you are a witch, one for which you have successfully made the appropriate spellcraft check to learn it after encountering it and one that is now or was in the past written in your spellbok if you are a wizard, magus or similar class.
Verbose and complicated definition :P

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