Alchemist's fire and web and swarms?

[Gronka]

So in a PFS game I played, we ran in to a swarm of fine creatures. someone cast web in the area where the swarm was. I was like, ok, I'll throw some alchemist's fire at it. The GM said that it would only deal the splash damage (1 point) against the swarm. That sounded wrong to me, but whatever. I pointed out that the swarm was in a web, so according to the rules for the spell, the square that the fire hit would catch fire and deal 2d4 damage. The GM then said that the fire from the web would not deal any damage to the swarm, either. Basically the whole group just had to sit around for like 4 turns doing nothing b/c according to this GM there was no way we could harm it.

Is there something I am missing here? Or is this just a really bad reading of the rules?
His interpretation seems to be that the alchemist's fire could only target one individual creature in the swarm, and the swarm is not really "in" the web so the web burning wouldn't affect it.

Here is the relevant text I could find (emphasis mine)
From Web:
Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away one 5-foot square in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.

From Alchemist's Fire:
You can throw a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 feet.

A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. If desired, the target can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage.

Swarm:
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures... A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

[Nefreet]

Hi, Gronka.

Sorry to hear about your experience. Not everyone's perfect, and with so many rules and rules interpretations out there you'll inevitably encounter something that doesn't run smoothly.

The best course of action would be to handle this locally, either with the GM themself or with whoever's in charge of your area. Nobody in this forum was there, and none of us would be able to help you address the issue personally.

There are people out there that believe swarms only ever take 1 point of damage from splash weapons. It's not an interpretation I believe in, but there is a vocal population that holds that view. Adding webs to the mix just adds more room for interpretation.

I'd suggest finding your local Venture Officer (or your GM, if you feel comfortable doing that) and reapproaching the ruling. It's always best if you can handle these sorts of occurrences ASAP, and locally.

Best of luck =)

[Kobold Catgirl]

Hnnnnnnn. There it is again.

Basically, I'll side with Nefreet on this one in the interests of avoiding another huge argument: There have been a lot of discussions, and there is a vocal minority that follows a certain reading for RAW. It's generally not claimed to be RAI, mind you—they just say that, hypothetically, if we followed a super-strict reading, this is what it would mean.

Basically, there's an exception under swarms that names "splash weapons" as harming swarms normally. Some have interpreted this to mean not "splash weapons" but "splash damage".

Like I said, it's a vocal minority, but RAW debates are basically a "lose or lose" fight. Talk to your Venture Officer. And if you want to make a case, examine this thread for pointers.

I am currently crossing my fingers that nobody decides we need another iteration of the same pointless argument. I am so done with this argument.

[Starglim]

Both alchemist's fire (if you hit the swarm's touch AC, which is rather high) and burning webs should have done full damage + 50% to the swarm.

[Kobold Catgirl]

By the way, Paizo has had a few years to give one of these many threads an FAQ. Now, surprise-surprise, it's surfacing in the one type of game that is entirely subject to the perils of RAW: Pathfinder Society. Can we please finally resolve it with an FAQ?

If you agree, just pop over to the thread I linked and tag the OP.

[Gronka]

Thanks for the responses, and the link.

Oh, also, the swarm was crawling creatures, not flying. So he wasn't trying to say that they were flying above the web; just that the web they were crawling on that was burning wouldn't affect them.

[Wheldrake]

Gronka wrote:

Thanks for the responses, and the link.

Oh, also, the swarm was crawling creatures, not flying. So he wasn't trying to say that they were flying above the web; just that the web they were crawling on that was burning wouldn't affect them.

For the burning web, this interpretation is ridiculous, both conceptually and from a RAW point of view, since it is not single target damage but area effect damage.

For the initial hit, I agree with the above posters that there is some degree of controversy surrounding the question. I personally believe that you should be able to target the swarm with thrown vials of alchemist's fire and the like, and that they should do full damage +50%.

But there are differing interpretations of the RAW on this point, and have been for years. In any event, you did the right thing in accepting the DM's ruling on the spot. Afterwards, a few polite questions up the PFS food chain couldn't hurt, since the question of how to damage swarms appears to come up with some frequency.

[Ridiculon]

not trying to start up the debate again, but can someone put a link to a thread where it already happened? i'd like to see the logic for both sides

[MeanMutton]

Ridiculon wrote:

not trying to start up the debate again, but can someone put a link to a thread where it already happened? i'd like to see the logic for both sides

I'll summarize it for you:

Swarm Subtype wrote:

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

You have individuals who argue that the full damage of the splash weapon counts as an "effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and only the splash damage is the "effects that affect an area".

On the other side, you have individuals who argue that "such as splash weapons" mean that the entire value of the damage of the splash weapon counts as "effects that affect an area".

There's no need to really have any argument between the two sides because it all comes down to that, really.

[Ridiculon]

ah, well now if i respond with my opinion it will start the debate again here... link pls

[Kobold Catgirl]

I already did. See my first post.

There is more to the debate, but we aren't doing this again.

[Ridiculon]

oh, ty. yeah thats why i didn't want to respond here