[Unchained Monk Guide] YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD


Advice

101 to 150 of 338 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>

I was just reading on Snake Style and now I remember why it's orange - because it prevents you from using your swifts/immediate.

Also, I didn't rate Vanara as yellow!!! I rated their FCBs as yellow.

I added a note about Ki Leech but I still think people should read the whole guide :P

Scarab Sages

Secret Wizard wrote:

I was just reading on Snake Style and now I remember why it's orange - because it prevents you from using your swifts/immediate.

Only if you take the second attack granted by snake fang, or if you use sense motive to AC. It gives you the full benefits of an AoO on a miss, piercing damage, and using sense motive to confirm a critical without any action use. It's solid, especially if you are multiclassing swashbuckler/daring champion.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Kree-tik-oll? Sorry, I play monks, never heard of the word.


It just occured to me that Weapon trick one handed weapon actually isn't all that bad for a Tanky monk. You have to be holding a manufactured weapon for this to work but you actually don't have to attack with it.

Stylish Riposte gives you a free AoO if a foe misses you by 5 or more and requires Combat Relexes (which you get for free anyhow).

Mindful Dodge isn't great for Monks but it might save your life from time to time and you have Dodge on your list of bonus feats (and most Monks will pick it up anyhow).


Very good points.


Somethig I just noticed this morning in the Build Examples section. All the sample builds list their saves as "Fortitude/Reflex/Wisdom" (s/b Will, natch).


Fixed!

Also, added uncommon feats to the Bonus Feat section, such as Ki Diversity or Wings of the Androsphinx.

Now I just have to wait until I get Legacy of Dragons to put my grubby paws on that juicy Scaled Fist...


The who with the what now...?


New splatbook, Legacy of Dragons.

Includes a CHA-based UnMonk archetype with draconic flavor.

Also some style feats that are worth considering for build use.


Yeah, I knew the book was coming out, but didn't know that was a thing that'll be in it. I am now crossing every spare finger hoping it doens't suck.


From the info I have, it really can't suck, it actually sounds pretty damn boss offensively:

- Modifies Bonus Feats to include Dragon Style chain, which sounds super awesome since it's one of the strongest Style lines.

- Can access to Shatter Defenses as a Bonus Feat, which means you get to abuse Medusa's Wrath! Enforcer builds should be delighted.

- Still Mind traded for draconic save bonuses. On par.

- 4th and 12th ki powers replaced for elemental damage on hit and breath weapon.

Sure, your Will saves will take a big hit, but you'll be much more useful out of combat with that high CHA and you can always pick up Steadfast Personality.


Egads, between that and the Fighter archetype I heard about, this book is sounding crazy good.


GUIDE UPDATED FOR THE SCALED FIST MONK


So the scaled fist monk doesn't stack with the sage counselor like you say it does.
They both touch the bonus feats class ability and thus can't stack.


Chess Pwn wrote:

So the scaled fist monk doesn't stack with the sage counselor like you say it does.

They both touch the bonus feats class ability and thus can't stack.

This is incorrect. It was specifically stated that removing increments doesn't count as removing the whole feature, and an altered feature still counts as itself.

Quote:
On the other hand, any alternate class features listed as altering an existing class feature otherwise works as that original class feature, and is considered to be that class feature for purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites, even if that feature is renamed to fit a new theme. For example, a class feature that alters the bard's bardic performance still counts a bardic performance for any prerequisite that requires that ability.
Quote:
If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.

Ergo, "if an archetype replaces an individual improvement of a class feature that has a series of improvement, but does not replace a whole class feature, the class feature does not replace the entire class feature."


Right, but you altering the list alters the entire bonus feat ability. Then trying to alter the bonus feat ability by not getting the lv2 feat conflicts because the ability was already altered.

"However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. "


That is overridden by the following paragraphs, which I cited.

Removing individual improvements does not count as replacing or altering; and altering means the feature still counts as itself for requisites, such as having improvements removed.

EDIT: Under your logic, you couldn't stack the Hex Channeler and Hedge Witch archetypes, which is a tried and true combination that no one argues against.


No, the hex channeler is swapping your lv2 hex and the hedge witch is swapping your lv4 and lv8. Nothing is touching the base, like by adding a new hex option that could be taken only by that archetype.

Quote:
On the other hand, any alternate class features listed as altering an existing class feature otherwise works as that original class feature, and is considered to be that class feature for purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites, even if that feature is renamed to fit a new theme. For example, a class feature that alters the bard's bardic performance still counts a bardic performance for any prerequisite that requires that ability.

This is saying that a bard that has the Battle Dance from the Dawnflower dervish which says This ability alters the standard bardic performance ability. Means that feats, prestige classes, spells that require bardic performance works with this ability. It does not mean that this ability is the same as the base for overlapping with other archetypes. Archetypes can't touch the same thing.

Your second quote and comment are correct, as per the witch example used. Bother are replacing specific improvements in a series of improvements.

FAQ

faq wrote:
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

The bolded part says. If an archetype alters the base, even if only adding additional bonus feats to the list of bonus feats, you can't take that archetype with an archetype that alters or REPLACES any of the sub features.

Meaning that if the Dragon monk ADDS or CHANGES the list of bonus feats you can select from it cannot be taken with the Sage Monk that REPLACES all bonus feats before level 10.


I disagree, because I think the section you bolded refers to two features that alter things.

You are not mentioning the fact that Sage Counselor does not replace the feature, it replaces improvements, which are dealt in another section of the archetype FAQ.

Again, under your logic, Hedge Witch and Hex Channeler would not stack because Hex Channeler allows you to give up hexes to increase the channel bonus, effectively "adding" options to the Hex pool.


Sage counselor replaces improvements. Yes. I have said so myself.

Dragon monk adds feat options to your list of bonus feats.

as per the FAQ, if an archetype alter something by adding to the list of options (which dragon monk is doing) it cannot be taking with an archetype that subs out any of those improvements(sub-features) (which the sage is doing).


By that token, Bladebound + Hexcrafter Magus don't stack because Bladebound replaces the 3rd level arcana and Hexcrafter adds Hexes to the list of arcana options.

Yet everyone considers it that they stack.


Alright, you win, Chess Pwn!

I considered what you say and I ended up agreeing with you. I started thinking of an archetype that could reduce the overall value of Bonus Feats (by removing options, for example) to increase the value in other parts of the kit, and I thought it'd be unfair for a player to be able to skirt that by taking an archetype that removes increments of Bonus Feats.

It's not this case, but it's how it goes.


cool :D


Now go pester Kurald Galain to change his guide from saying hexcrafter and bladebound stack :P


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Secret Wizard - I'm building a PFS character based on your Jabbing Striker example. But I'm thinking of giving him the Perfect Scholar archetype.

That really requires the Deific Obedience: Irori feat. At what level would you say is the best to pick up that feat? Would you swap something out or simply delay something?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, as a Human, you are looking at:

1. Jabbing Style, ???, Dodge

2. ???

3. Deific Obedience

5. Power Attack

6. Mobility

7. Jabbing Dancer

9. Jabbing Master

10. ???

11. ???

So you seem to have one regular free feat and one free bonus feat at level 2.

If you wanted to go with Finesse, I'd look at a stat array like:

S14 D16+2 C12 I12 W14 CH7

I'd pick up Honorable Fist of the Society and Mizu-Ki Hikari Rebel for traits.

With 12 INT as a Human, you get a good 6 skill ranks per level. Assigning one to Perception and one to Acrobatics every level, that's 4 extra ranks to place around, you could focus on 8 Knowledge skills (arcana, dungeoneering, engineering, history, nature, nobility, planes, religion, for example) by going 4 in one set and 4 in another set every level.

At level 12, with 6 ranks in those 8 Knowledge skills, 12 INT and Deific Obedience, we are looking at a +20 to every one of those Knowledge checks, after applying Bardic Knowledge.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Thanks.

That assumes you don't take the recommended Dual Talent Alternate Racial Trait, I see.

I think the straight Jabbing-style monk is clearly more combat-effective, but giving him Perfect Scholar might make him more useful in Society play overall.


I'm personally not sold as to Jabbing Style being better. The extra perks on Dragon Style are actually super useful - bonus to saves, intimidation and ignoring difficult terrain on charges have saved my ass several times. Plus, it requires less prerequisites and you only need two feats to master it.

And yeah, Perfect Scholar just gives you more party utility.

If you wanted to avoid the Finesse angle, you could go with Dual Talent and swap STR and DEX. I don't think that's a bad idea personally, but at that point I'd say Dragon Style is a better fit.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey, I'm just going by the style guide somebody wrote. :-)

I've never run a non-zen archer monk before. Thanks for the advice.


Is it possible to do some guided hand/cleric dip shenanigans on the unchained monk? Or is that better suited for a straight cleric? I'm thinking jabbing style would be cool.

Scarab Sages

Guided hand is nice, but you still need Str to damage and channel smite is a wasted prerequisite. A cleric dip isn't horrible for a weapon monk using crusaders flurry, but it's mostly unnecessary for an unchained monk as they are proficent in all monk weapons.


Woodoodoo wrote:
Is it possible to do some guided hand/cleric dip shenanigans on the unchained monk? Or is that better suited for a straight cleric? I'm thinking jabbing style would be cool.

As Imbi said, you still need STR for damage and for Power Attack to qualify for Jabbing Master.

The one build that I can think of that might use Guided Hand to great effect would be a Linnorm Style build, but then again, I'm still not sure how useful that style is. I prefer Snake Style.


Just a question how do you get the Jabbing Style so early in the build examples you have in your guide?

New to the UC Monk trying to learn.


Jabbing Style requires IUS and 1 of the three, bab 6, flurry of blows, brawler's flurry. as a brawler he gets brawlers flurry at lv2 and IUS at lv1, so he qualifies at lv2.

A normal monk would qualify at lv1.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

Introducing...

YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD
A Guide to the Unchained Monk

Discuss.

Where can I find the Mostly Human alternate racial? What racial is it replacing? Thanks!!


brodels wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Introducing...

YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD
A Guide to the Unchained Monk

Discuss.

Where can I find the Mostly Human alternate racial? What racial is it replacing? Thanks!!

That's a typo, it should be Pass for Human:

PFS Legal Pass for Human
Source Inner Sea Races pg. 217
Discrimination against tieflings with horrifically fiendish features is so intense that even tieflings look up to those precious few of their kind who can pass as human. These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed). Such a tiefling doesn’t need to succeed at a Disguise check to appear to be human and count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells like charm person or enlarge person). The tiefling does not automatically gain his associated outsider language (but may select it as a bonus language if his Intelligence score is high enough), and he may not select other racial traits that would grant him obviously fiendish features (such as the fiendish sprinter, maw or claw, prehensile tail, scaled skin, or vestigial wings alternate racial traits listed in the Advanced Race Guide). This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I was looking at the Stone Dragon build you have though, and in that case it's an Oread. This isn't listed as an Oread alternate racial though and that's one of the 2 or 3 books I'm missing. Can you still use this as an Oread? The PC who wants to use it is 4'10" 180lbs and 89 years old, lol, can that really pass for human?


Oh, for the Oread!

Yeah, that's also from ISR:

PFS Legal Mostly Human
Source Inner Sea Races pg. 215
A few ifrits, oreads, sulis, sylphs, and undines have appearances much closer to those of their human ancestors; in fact, they may not even realize their true race. Such geniekin appear to be human, save perhaps minor features like unusual eye color, and they count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells such as charm person or enlarge person). These geniekin do not automatically gain their associated elemental language (but may select it as a bonus language if their Intelligence is high enough). This ability alters the geniekin’s type, subtype, and languages.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Oh sweet! Thanks =D


Sorry for the necro but I have a question about the Perfect scholar. The learn from failure power works only 1 time/day against the same enemy? or they mean that you can't have more than one bonus like that against the same enemy?


Hi, a suggestion for the traits section: for scaled fists, the irrepressible trait (Cha mod instead of Wis mod on saves vs charm and compulsion effects) strikes me as very solid. You get a big part of the bonuses of the Steadfast Personality feat for the cost of a trait, and you do not suffer a penalty for a low wisdom score.


Pyro165 wrote:
Sorry for the necro but I have a question about the Perfect scholar. The learn from failure power works only 1 time/day against the same enemy? or they mean that you can't have more than one bonus like that against the same enemy?

I believe it's once per enemy, refreshing each day.


On the Deathstrike Mantis build what does Accomplished Sneak Attack do for you? Do you get Sneak Attack somehow I am not seeing?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Poison Dusk wrote:
On the Deathstrike Mantis build what does Accomplished Sneak Attack do for you? Do you get Sneak Attack somehow I am not seeing?

Monk of the Mantis archetype (Dirty Tactics Toolbox) gets sneak attack (when flurrying) at level 2.


mantis archetype gets sneak attack starting lv2 that only works on a flurry.


The Shaman wrote:
Hi, a suggestion for the traits section: for scaled fists, the irrepressible trait (Cha mod instead of Wis mod on saves vs charm and compulsion effects) strikes me as very solid. You get a big part of the bonuses of the Steadfast Personality feat for the cost of a trait, and you do not suffer a penalty for a low wisdom score.

It's pretty good, but it doesn't cover the rest of the mind-affecting spectrum such as fear, emotion, some illusions, etc. Better spend the feat and not die due to Phantasmal Killer or get locked down by Color Spray.


Excellent guide. Not sure I 100% agree with everything but it's very well done. The Fist of the Northstar title is a nice touch as are a few of the jokes. Poor Paladins! ;)


Lemartes wrote:
Excellent guide. Not sure I 100% agree with everything but it's very well done. The Fist of the Northstar title is a nice touch as are a few of the jokes. Poor Paladins! ;)

Do state what you disagree on! The more opinions the better.


Is there a way to reduce the penalties for fighting defensively with the unchained monk other than crane style? I was considering a scaled fist using osyluth guile, but that -4 to attack is a pain in the neck. I was hoping to be able to use this combination with a different combat style without losing too much accuracy in the process.

I know there are traits that boost AC from fighting defensively and that reduce the penalty from combat expertise, and the 7th level ability of the Aldori Swordlord fighter.


No use for a monk but the Madu is essentially Crane style on a stick.

101 to 150 of 338 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / [Unchained Monk Guide] YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.