Hi, this is going to be my first PFS character. I have played a bunch outside of PFS, so I am excited to try how I hold up under the gun. My party that I am joining for the first session looks to have some glass cannons and a mage, so I pulled this design I had out of the vault. I need help flushing out the feats as I progress.
Stephen Manning
Medium CG Human Slayer 1
Str 12
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 9
Defenses:
AC: 19 (10 + 3 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 Shield)
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +0
Melee:
Rapier +4 (1d6+1 18-20x2)
Studied Target adds +1 to hit and damage as a move action.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Finesse
Skills: 7 ranks yet undecided
Traits: Adopted (Elven Reflexes: +2 Init), Shield-Trained (Heavy Shields are light weapons for me)
Gear: Rapier, Large Wooden Shield, Studded Leather Armor, 103 gold remaining (Probably get a longbow or upgrade to chain shirt)
Not the greatest at level 1, but I have the following progression planned. Note that I do not yet know how retraining works so I planned for it being easy:
Level 2 Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue
Retrain Weapon Finesse into Fencing Grace
Level 3 Two Weapon Fighting
Level 4 Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training
Retrain Fencing Grace into Improved Shield Bash
Retrain Weapon Focus into Fencing Grace
This is where things get fuzzy.
Level 5 Improved Initiative
Level 6 Slayer Talent Ranger Style Sword and Sword and Shield, Shield Master
Favored Class Bonus Rogue Talent Combat Trick Improved Two Weapon Fighting
I know down the line I want Bashing Finish and Improved Critical (Rapier)
Can you all suggest feats? Thanks.
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Is this just a theme character?
Because I don't see why you'd want to make a character like this. Seriously.
TWF'ing with the shield is going to be awful for you. You have NO bonus damage with it, and it's not a finesse weapon. There's not much synergy here at all.
Are you allowed to retrain a Rogue Talent into a non-Talent?
You don't need the 19 dex until you get ITWF, which is several levels away. IN the meantime, your damage is quite poor for a would-be frontliner.
But, I'm not an expert on builds.
Weapon Finesse is also penalized if you are using a shield. You could drop to a mithral buckler, but then you couldn't bash.
I'm just not seeing the sense of a dex S&B build.
==Aelryinth
If you are planning to go with a Dex build I'd recommend that you play an Unchained Rogue rather than a Slayer, at least for 4 levels. Slayers work better with STR builds because they can get TWF with bonus feats.
So - I'd suggest that you put Wis up to 12, Cha down to 8, Dex down to 14, and Str up to 18. Four Mirror armor & a heavy shield will give you a 20 AC at 1st level.
Then drop Weapon Finesse & Fencing Grace for Double Slice & Heavy Armor Proficiency so that you can eventually wear mithril full plate.
Shield-Trained makes a heavy shield into a Finesse weapon. You consider it light, and you can finesse with any light weapon. For a small gold increase, a Darkwood shield has no armor check penalty, thus negating the accuracy penalty as early as level 2. I don't retrain rogue talents into non-talents. I retrain base feats and use the rogue talents to shore up the pre-requisites.
As for not gaining bonus damage on the shield, Shield Master (normally a level 11 feat) is accessible at level 6. That applies defensive enhancements to combat.
That was the theory behind the character anyway. Since Heavy Shields are light weapons with shield-trained, you can TWF with them and a one-handed weapon without penalty, and still have the increased AC.
JamesTheDonkey wrote: Shield-Trained makes a heavy shield into a Finesse weapon. You consider it light, and you can finesse with any light weapon. I realize, but that still doesn't help damage. And a STR build would also get to take advantage of Shield Master in addition to getting STR damage.
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There is a lot of retraining going and since you don't have a handle on retraining in PFS, that's a bad thing. Don't assume you'll get 6PP per level (the assumed average is 4 per level) and it would cost 5PP per feat retrain AND gold...not only should your first purchase be 2PP for a wand of CLW, you should be banking towards 16PP for a raise dead. I would strongly suggest reworking your feat/ability progression to minimize retrains.
On top of the retraining reservations, your build pulls from a variety of resources--do you own all the books these abilities come from?
I can see the skeleton of the idea you're going for: High AC TWF skirmisher/frontliner, but honestly, you're just better off going STR and 2H a hvy-shield and at Level 6 you'll turn into beast with Shield Master as you're double dipping on the enhancement to AC & HIT/DAM. Less feat intensive, better +HIT & much better +DAM.
As I am unfamiliar with PFS, the cost of retraining was definitely a concern with this build. Getting Dex to Damage at level 2 really taxes the retraining system to maintain viability through progression.
I could move a few more point into Str, and build to this point gradually. I can still be online by level 4 or 5. One of the main things I am unaware of is how quickly you can progress items, and how high the enemy attack bonuses are. Given WBL for level 5, this build is hovering just shy of 30 AC, with simple item acquisition. (+2 armor, +2 shield, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, shield focus [maybe, hence the asking for help on feats]). Also ticking up Dex at 4 to 20. 6 dex, 5 or 6 armor (depends on mithral being an option), 5 shield, deflection and natural armor puts 27 AC on the low end. I don't know where that lands in PFS stats.
The party I looked at appears to be a bunch of glass cannon builds, so I assume they can cover the DPS.
The Build without retraining (And without really flushing it out)
Str 15 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8
Level 1 TWF, Imp Shield Bash
Level 2 Weapon Finesse (+2 to hit)
Level 3 Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Level 4 Combat Trick for Fencing Grace
Level 5 Iron Will
Level 6 Shield Master, Shield Focus
Level 7 Improved TWF
Level 8 Weapon Focus Shield
Level 9 Improved Critical
Level 10 Bashing Finish
Level 11 Greater TWF
Does that look more sane?
I have a slayer sword and board, and this is how I pulled it off.
1) shield trained trait- heavy shields count as light shields for twf
2) stat array of 16 16 14 12 12 7
3)Increase dex to 17 at four, 18 at 8, use mithral breastplate.
4) get TWF as normal feats, and improved shield bash/shield master as your bonus feats
Also, I picked up a few PDFs in preparation. I made sure they covered what I laid out here for the first 6 levels. If I make it to there, I may buy more.
I wouldn't go Dex-based on a slayer either. They're just too great at Strength-based and get almost no help going Dex-based. In the meantime, Unchained Rogues go Dex-based for free.
Take a look at the Slayer Pregen at level 4 at 7. He uses Ranger Combat Styles to get 2WF without Dexterity prerequisites. As a result he's got a Strength 20 and four attacks per round at level 7 with one of the highest to-hit accuracies seen on any pregen. That's an example of how the Slayer does 2WF better than anyone else.
Consider taking 1 level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler before going Slayer. That gets you Weapon Focus (rapier) for free (and free Weapon Finesse for the rapier only; you'd still have to take the feat to use it with your shield). So you can pick up Fencing Grace at first level, and have 2 panache to boot even without changing your stats (and none of the 1st-level deeds are stopped by using a shield). It's a big boost in power with just a single level dip.
RainyDayNinja: Thanks, that's an interesting suggestion. I will consider it. I am worried that slowing down studied target and sneak attack will slow my mid-level ability too much.
Currently, I looked at Slayer pre-gren, and level 7 he has +13/+13/+8/+8 for 1d4+7 each, before class features. He also has about 19k in mostly basic gear. Lets see what I can generate with those and the PFS gear buying limitations.
Stats at level 7 with current model:
Str 12 Dex 19(20) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 9
Level 4 point into Dex.
+1 DW Spiked Heavy Shield, +1 Mith BP, +1 Rapier, Belt of Dex and Con, +1 Ring of Prot, +1 Amulet of Nat Armor, +1 Cloak of Res
HP: 67 (7d10+21)
AC: 28 (10 + 7 Armor + 4 Shield + 5 Dex + 1 Deflection + 1 Natural Armor)
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +12 Will +5
Combat
+1 Rapier +13 / +8 (1d6+7 18-20x2) +1 Spiked Heavy Shield +15/+10 (1d6+1 20x2)
Feats:
TWF, Imp Shield Bash, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Fencing Grace, Iron Will, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Imp TWF
Seems like I am taking a minor damage trade off for a large boost in AC. Also, I can save 3000g and keep my full movement if I use +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. It reduces my AC by 1 (5 of Armor, 6 off Dex), but, and I am unsure of the upgrade rules, but I could use that 3k on a +2 Shield. Increase hit, damage, and bring back up my AC.
So I toyed around with it, and 1 level in Swashbuckler. Not Inspired Blade, like RainyDayNinja suggested. It lets light and one-handed piercing weapons be used with Finesse at level 1, so I can use a spiked shield from the get go. It also accelerates Fencing Grace by one level, since my Slayer 2 talent can be Weapon Training Rogue Talent, making Grace available at level 3. It also frees up my Combat Trick Rogue Talent for later.
Also, I think I am switching Iron Will for Power Attack, by going to 13 Str and down to 8 Cha.
Thoughts?
Power Attack is rarely useful for TWF. It's only really worth getting for THF.
Okay, so are there any other low pre-req ways I can boost my damage? I have the feat at 5th level that is unclaimed. Iron Will and Power Attack are the main contenders.
How do I get Dex to Damage on my shield? Can I make it agile since I can finesse with it?
I think you're going have a problem keeping the monsters attention on you as I can't see you dealing no where near the damage your fellow party members are going to be doing.
I know Sword and board builds can be crazy good. Problem is, they're all very feat intensive and don't really become good till very high level. For PFS, these builds are usually made by someone applying a lot of GM credit to a character or by using retraining rules late in the characters life.
If you do decide to slowly work your way up through the feat chain. Be prepared to play a mediocre character the first 7-9 levels. I do know some people like this challenge and are knowledgeable enough about game tactics to carry it off and make it a fun challenge for them and the rest of the table. You just have to decide if you're one of these people to go through with it.
JamesTheDonkey wrote: How do I get Dex to Damage on my shield? Can I make it agile since I can finesse with it? Oops - my bad. Forget my last suggestion. Agile could work, but you can't combine it with Double Slice.
Agile also means you have to enchant it on a weapon and then add it on.
It's a unique ability of shields, but it means +8k to the cost, when all you really want is to max out the +Armor Enhancement as fast as possible.
An Uber Shield is a +5 Bashing Shield, +5 Defender/Guardian...using Shield Master for TH/DMg, and always using the weapon enhancement for AC or Save boosts. But...you're looking at 36k for +5 Bashing and 98k for +5 Defender Guardian.
For PFS, I'd stick with straight Str and getting that shield bonus as high as possible. You should have a +3 shield before others have a +2 weapon and +1 shield, meaning better th/dmg and AC all at the same time. What's not to love? It's one of the rare cases where you can have a +5 weapon before the nominal game ends at level 12.
==Aelryinth
Matt2VK, are there any good ways to ensure I can keep monster attention?
Aelryinth, I like the concept for your build, and plan to try it later. At the moment, I have this build in mind, and would appreciate help tuning it as is. Thanks for the new plan, though. I will start looking into that build shortly.
So are there any convenient feats, besides Power Attack, that allow me to boost my damage and help keep enemy attention?
Why not make a board and board slayer.
Woodoodoo,
Since I playing a dex-based build, I would have to spend 3 levels into unchained rogue for Dex-to-damage on my heavy shields. By wielding a rapier, my slayer and swashbuckler class features will get that on my rapier at level 3, only slowing my slayer progression by 1 level, instead of 3. Also I do not lose BAB this way.
I have a sword and board based fighter using the Viking archetype
-- it is off the fighter class
-- you give up weapon training for rage
-- you give up armor training for "shield training"
-- in "shield training" you increase the shield bonus
Souphin, do you find that giving up Weapon Training is worth it? Gloves of Dueling and the new Advanced Weapon Training options seem really good. Also rage induces an AC penalty, and I am trying to build a tank without suffering too much damage loss.
I modified my stats. Cut Int down to 8 to boost Str to 14.
14 19 14 8 11 8
I also am buying a morningstar with my starting money. The bump in Str will add damage throughout my character life and do a solid increase in my level 1 and 2 stats.
Level 1: Swashbuckler
Feats: TWF, Improved Shield Bash, Swashbuckler Finesse
AC: 18 (10 + 4 armor + 4 Dex) +1 if not 2-handing
Attack: Morningstar +4 (1d8+3 20x2)
or, if slashing is needed, Gladius +4 (1d6+2 19-20x2)
Gear: Chain Shirt, Gladius, Morningstar, buckler
Level 2: Slayer
Feats: Studied Target +1
AC 20 (10 + 4 armor + 2 shield + 4 dex)
Attack: Morningstar +5 (1d8+2 20x2) or Gladius +5 (1d6+2 19-20x2)
TWF: MS +4 (1d8+2) or G +4 (1d6+2) and Shield +4 (1d6+1)
Gear: Chain Shirt, Gladius, Morningstar, Spiked Darkwood Heavy Shield
That should improve my early game usefulness without hurting my late game results. The -1 skill point isn't a hude deal since I am getting 4 at level 1 and 6 at each subsequent level.
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