[WIP] Nightbringer's Guide to the Fighter


Advice

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I'll be buying the PDf on Wednesday and will begin my review then. I have a ton of feat updates to add soon as well.


Good guide. Alot in there. I love playing fighters. They are too often maligned by so many on the boards. You've given me some good ideas and concepts to tpy around with.

That being said, there are a few areas I disagree with in your guide:
VMCs:
Barbarian is probably one of the best ones IMO. Rage, Uncanny dodge, DR, rage power and greater rage are all worth the feats- maybe not purple but certainly green and prob blue

Witch is alittle better than red- you get a familiar which will prob be a +2 will save or +4 init and the alertness feat not too mention any other familiar goodies, It also has access to evil eye feat which combined the hex strike feat gives your enemies a -2ac or -2 to hit for at least one round if you hit them and later bumps to -4 better if they fail their save but that'll prob be only on a 1- maybe useful for one of those unarmed fighter builds or a lore warden- again kind of a corner case but i think that there's a hidden gem w/ hex strike

Some fighter specific magic items to mention are band of stalwart warrior and sash of the war champion which each increase your bravery by 4 levels (essentially +1 each which equates to +1 will)

dirty trick master is prob blue or purple if you can go dazzle to dazed- a dazed opponent doesn't have standard action to remove the dirty trick as far as i understand it

keep going you've a good guide there- thanks for all the hard work


Moto Muck wrote:

dirty trick master is prob blue or purple if you can go dazzle to dazed- a dazed opponent doesn't have standard action to remove the dirty trick as far as i understand it

Also nauseated. Nothing like a good kick in the balls to make someone lose their (insert last meal here).


Just a multi-class note for Barbarian: I played a 2 handed weapon fighter/armoured hulk barbarian, and took 5 levels of armoured hulk barbarian with the 'additional rage' feat I gained enough rounds of rage and far better speed in heavy armour (45' with rage powers).

Rage also further boosted the 2 handed fighter's boosts to strength bonus damage - the character could get around a battle and kicked plenty of arse.The Barbarian's d12 hit dice meant on average I was not losing hit points and I gained some valuable class skills (PERCEPTION!) and skill points. Obviously BA does not suffer either.

Armoured Hulk as a multi-class addresses a heavily armoured fighter's 'need for speed' as it where, gives them some skill versitility and is far better than it would at first appear. Rage proportionally boosts damage, particularly for anyone with a 2h weapon and especially a 2h weapon fighter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just wanted to say: this is a great guide. Thanks for making it!

I especially appreciated the discussion of the stamina tricks. I'd always just ignored that component of the rules as a complicated morass. But now that I've read some of your discussion, I'm finding myself getting converted. I think I'm going to introduce the stamina rules into our game, and see how they go.

Can't wait to see your commentary on the options in the Armor Master's Handbook!


Advanced Armor Training options are in there (not sure if they are complete yet -- I don't have AMH myself to check), but the section doesn't have a Table of Contents entry yet (it is after Advanced Weapon Training).


Yep, I'm working on it a bit at a time. All AT options are in, started the reeval of archetypes.


Master Armorer does not open the door for Craft Wondrous Item, various threads will show how Master Craftsman is flawed in that regard. I think you can take it again with regular feats though, and take this option to have both which is something no other class can do.

And I would rate Armor Specialization a lot higher, since you can gain access to higher bonuses through a Sash of the War Champion, if not for the sake of the actual numerical bonus itself, then for the fact that it increases your effective level and allows you to select another option.


I'm assuming you pick up Craft Wondrous Item with a normal feat. Master Craftsman just lets you qualify for it. I'll clarify the statement though.

I'll take a second look at Armor Specialization. The AAT options all need further theory crafting.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Advanced Armor Training options are in there (not sure if they are complete yet -- I don't have AMH myself to check), but the section doesn't have a Table of Contents entry yet (it is after Advanced Weapon Training).

Ah, thanks! I hadn't noticed that update. Nothing on the new AMH feats or stamina tricks yet, though. *Especially* looking forward to that!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Master Craftsman is ALSO a general feat. So, you have to spend a general feat to qualify for making magic items, and then wait two more levels to get the second feat you actually need for the combination.

Extremely flawed. Master Craftsman should read more like: Pick an Item Creation feat. Instead of using spellcraft, you use the relevant skill for making the base item for your check to enchant the item.

This neatly gets rid of the fact you can't create Arms AND Armor, because they use different skills, and your Armorcrafting skill also doesn't let you create magical boots, bracers, helms, gauntlets, or the like, because they are wondrous items, if you use it for making magic armor.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
And I would rate Armor Specialization a lot higher, since you can gain access to higher bonuses through a Sash of the War Champion, if not for the sake of the actual numerical bonus itself, then for the fact that it increases your effective level and allows you to select another option.

FWIW, I'm with master marshmallow here. I'd be inclined to make armor specialization at least green.

At the very least, it seems it should be more highly rated than critical deflection. Critical deflection provides a scaling bonus up to +6 to AC for the purposes of seeing whether criticals are confirmed. Armor specialization provides a scaling bonus of up to +4 to AC for *all* purposes, criticals and non criticals alike. Given that, it's hard to see how armor specialization isn't better than critical deflection.


Update: Combat Feats through the letter "I" are complete, though I don't have feats from some of the latest books in there. Weapon Mastery feats added, I'm starting on Armor Mastery feats now.

I'm reevaluating all archetypes in light of the advanced armor training options, but frankly these aren't quite as game changing as many of the advanced weapon training options were. Additionally, the majority of archetypes trade away armor training so on the whole my rankings of the individual archetypes probably won't change much. What does change is that the general wisdom that a Fighter should always take an archetype or two is no longer valid. With AAT and AWT a "normal" Fighter will wind up being quite strong and versatile.

I'm adding a new note on each archetype, detailing which levels of Armor Training and Weapon Training get traded away. I figure that'll be helpful for everybody reading the guide.

Regarding the several notes on VMC Barbarian, I'm still not a huge fan. The benefits are quite front loaded, and if you want to make effective use of Rage you'll need to invest in Extra Rage feats as well. My major complaint though is that you don't get a Rage Power until level 11, and then you can only pick one that would be available to a level 5 Barbarian. Overall I rated it yellow (2 starts) as this option might work for certain builds or situations but it doesn't provide the Fighter with anything new or unique and will require additional feat investments to fully utilize.

I agree with Armor Specialization getting bumped up, the initial 2 star was on my gut reaction that you don't invest heavily in AC, but for the degree of boost that you gain it winds up being a pretty cheap investment. Full Plate is suddenly quite attractive, as it's now a +14 AC item. Make it Adamantine use Armored Juggernaut as well as Armor Material Mastery for scaling DR and a twice per day ability to convert half of the lethal damage you suffer from an attack into nonlethal.

Btw, Sash of the War Champion is quite good. I thought Bravery and Armor Training had caps on how high the bonuses could go, but after double checking I see that they don't. Technically you could gain a bonus AAT option through the item, and at an early level, though you'll have to talk to your GM about whether this option is locked after you pick it or not. The potential +1 to Will saves is just icing.


My first run at armor mastery feats is up. I'd appreciate your thoughts.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Javaed wrote:
My first run at armor mastery feats is up. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

I think the (pretty cool) stamina trick for Armor Material Mastery is missing?


Porridge wrote:
I think the (pretty cool) stamina trick for Armor Material Mastery is missing?

Thanks for the catch! It is a really good option. With AMM you'll have 4 uses per day baseline, Abundant Tactics gives you up to an additional 6 uses. With 10 per day I'd probably spend my Stamina on the ability to pick from any of the available options. Getting Frost or Flaming for free every combat while still having other defensive options open is pretty nice.


Checked, although I don't yet have access to Armor Master's Handbook material to check it against. Also looked at most of the Combat Feats you added (see below). One thing I noticed is that the text for your rating of Improved Unarmed Strike seems to be missing something at the end of the non-Stamina part.

I forgot how humongous the set of Feats and especially Combat Feats is -- this is part of the reason that the document is over 100 pages and still growing. Google Docs is starting to give my Firefox trouble fully displaying and scrolling through the document -- you might need to convert it into multiple documents (linked from the Table of Contents) each containing 1 section (or more than 1 for successive short sections). Also would be good to have a line at the top of each document that indicates when it was last updated.

I hadn't realized that this would become one of the most monumental guides. Who says Fighters are no-brainers?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A question: How attractive is the tower shield specialist archetype given the AMH feats like mobile bulwark style and the tower shield specialist feat? It kind of seems like a straight fighter can now get the benefits without losing weapon training.


I noticed that the Relic Master archetype from the WMH is missing, along the Item Mastery feats I guess.

Scarab Sages

Porridge wrote:
A question: How attractive is the tower shield specialist archetype given the AMH feats like mobile bulwark style and the tower shield specialist feat? It kind of seems like a straight fighter can now get the benefits without losing weapon training.

Tower Shield Specialist was not attractive in the first place. It's strictly worse now.


Actually, Tower Shield Specialist might be useful for one thing -- but only if the campaign you are in has a use for that one particular thing: Multiclass it with Sacred Shield (preferably also Warrior of the Holy Light) Paladin and potentially some other stuff to make a Tower Shieldadin.


I'm going to have to take another look at Tower Shield Specialist as you do retain your normal Armor Training advantages. I think it'll remain a 2/5 option overall as you trade away a ton of offensive power when you lose Weapon Training.

Relic Master is up. I really don't like the archetype, but if I'm missing some trick that makes it amazing let me know. Also, has anybody done the leg work of determining useful items for activating the various Item Master feats. Overall I'm not all that impressed by them. Even a Kineticist isn't going to make much use of them since you only have a 3/4 BAB.


Since I'm emotionally invested in the Item Mastery feats (and Fighters) here is my list of items that activate them. I kept track of which items are the cheapest for each mastery and also if there are other items that you'd probably pick up regardless:

  • Hybridization Funnel (200gp), Requires Fabricate (Transmutation 5), Activates Flight and Telekinetic masteries
  • Bag of Holding, minor (1000gp), Requires Secret Chest (Conjuration 5), Activates Teleportation mastery
  • Traveler's Any Tool (250gp), Requires Major Creation (Conjuration 5), Activates Teleportation mastery
  • Gloves of Dueling (15000gp), Requires Greater Magic Weapon (Transmutation 4 if made by a cleric, otherwise 3), Activates Flight and/or Telekinetic masteries, plus you were gonna get it anyway
  • Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (5000 gp), Requires Divine Favor and Moment of Prescience (Evocation 1, Divination 8), Activates low level Energy mastery and Vision mastery
  • Ioun Torch (75gp), Requires Continual Flame (Evocation 3 if made by a cleric, otherwise 2), Cheap option for Energy mastery
  • Animated Portrait (500gp), Requires Major Image (Illusion 3), Very unwieldy, but activates Illusion mastery
  • Bookmark of Deception (1500gp), Requires Nondetection (Abjuration 3), Activates Dispel Mastery

For Necromancy and Enchantment I wasn't able to locate anything affordable... but there are probably items out there.
I agree with you on the Relic Master archetype. Seems like awful trades no matter what.


Thanks for the list! For Energy Mastery you could also use a magic weapon with one of the elemental damage enchantments, which a Fighter may actually make some use out of.

The Gloves of Dueling are great! A Fighter is going to want one anyway and the Flight feat is probably the best of the bunch. Telekinesis isn't bad either, especially since you can get extra uses via Abundant Tactics.

Scarab Sages

You are also going to get a STR or DEX stat belt at some point, and it's also good for flight mastery.


Riding a mount allows a fighter to benefit from the death from above feat so long as the mount is larger then your opponent, As such I don't think the feat is as situational as you claim.


Have you seen the new weapon training option in the Magical Tactics Toolbox? It seems to be essentially a limited arcane pool mechanic for fighters. It's looking like a very attractive option for any fighter that gets a particularly cool weapon in the early-mid levels that would otherwise lag behind as they go into mid-high levels.

I'm definitely planning to delay fighter's tactics so that I can take it at ninth level to keep Heartspit relevant as my primary weapon in our giantslayer campaign.


Quote:
Trained Throw (Ex) When the fighter makes a ranged attack with a thrown weapon and applies his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls,
Quote:

Thank you TiaC ​for reminding me about the Lesser Belt of Mighty Hurling. This magic belt allows you to use

your strength instead of dexterity for attack rolls with thrown weapons

You may want to hold that thank you off a bit. It's clear you have to apply the dex to hit and strength to damage.


ZanThrax wrote:

Have you seen the new weapon training option in the Magical Tactics Toolbox? It seems to be essentially a limited arcane pool mechanic for fighters. It's looking like a very attractive option for any fighter that gets a particularly cool weapon in the early-mid levels that would otherwise lag behind as they go into mid-high levels.

I'm definitely planning to delay fighter's tactics so that I can take it at ninth level to keep Heartspit relevant as my primary weapon in our giantslayer campaign.

Yeah, Warrior Spirit seems insane (and as a result it hasn't been approved as legal for PFS :< ). At 9th level with Gloves of Dueling, you're already getting +4/+4 atk/dmg with your weapon group, and now can add +4 enhancement bonus worth of abilities to your weapon on top of that. Plus, if you're VMC'd as a Magus, you have an Arcane pool that grants another +2 enhancement bonus worth of abilities.

Say you start with a normal +2 Greatsword:
At level 9 you can turn that into a +4 Holy Flaming Frost Greatsword in 4 or so separate fights each day. And thats just if you're focusing on damage. Warrior Spirit gives you access to any weapon ability, so you have incredible flexibility at your fingertips.

Or, you can just go with a ranged weapon. A +4 Holy Flaming Frost Longbow is incredibly scary @ level 9.


Yo, Jav, do you want help with this guide?

I could make some builds for the section. It will also help you to jot down the feats I use to maybe recommend them elsewhere.


They will likely errata gloves of dueling to only apply to weapon training only at this rate, and not have it apply to advanced stuff. Which is fine I'd still take that warriors spirit one.


A fighter with Mobile Bulwark Style can get some crazy defense with really good offense.

Negating ACP - Darkwood Tower Shield (-2) or Noqual (-3), Improved Shield Focus (-1), Tower Shield Specialist (-3, this leads to the following), Armor Training (-1...-4), Armor Expert (-1). Grab Shied Brace and you AC on all fronts is amazing. Combine this with a reach weapon, possibly lunge, and combat reflexes (And power attack, duh) with the weapon trick that makes your threatened two handed full round attack difficult terrain (?), you'll have a very happy blaster caster behind you, and you're too dangerous a combo to ignore.

Also, fun fact I think I've stumbled upon: Armor Master gets a scaling bonus to touch AC, but it isn't from the shield, it's gated by the shield's bonus. Mobile Fortress adds the bonus to touch from the shield itself. Just as well, the bonuses are untyped. As written, I think it stacks, leading up to +10 to touch ac. Basically, your Tower Shield acts against touch at that point.

That's all as written. It's a bit cheesy, I admit. :P


Cellion wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:

Have you seen the new weapon training option in the Magical Tactics Toolbox? It seems to be essentially a limited arcane pool mechanic for fighters. It's looking like a very attractive option for any fighter that gets a particularly cool weapon in the early-mid levels that would otherwise lag behind as they go into mid-high levels.

I'm definitely planning to delay fighter's tactics so that I can take it at ninth level to keep Heartspit relevant as my primary weapon in our giantslayer campaign.

Yeah, Warrior Spirit seems insane (and as a result it hasn't been approved as legal for PFS :< ). At 9th level with Gloves of Dueling, you're already getting +4/+4 atk/dmg with your weapon group, and now can add +4 enhancement bonus worth of abilities to your weapon on top of that. Plus, if you're VMC'd as a Magus, you have an Arcane pool that grants another +2 enhancement bonus worth of abilities.

Say you start with a normal +2 Greatsword:
At level 9 you can turn that into a +4 Holy Flaming Frost Greatsword in 4 or so separate fights each day. And thats just if you're focusing on damage. Warrior Spirit gives you access to any weapon ability, so you have incredible flexibility at your fingertips.

Or, you can just go with a ranged weapon. A +4 Holy Flaming Frost Longbow is incredibly scary @ level 9.

Considering that activating Warrior Spirit is 90% likely a standard action, it seems less insane to me. Still very good though.


Cavall wrote:
They will likely errata gloves of dueling to only apply to weapon training only at this rate, and not have it apply to advanced stuff. Which is fine I'd still take that warriors spirit one.

Don't give them any ideas. :<

Olaf the Holy wrote:
Considering that activating Warrior Spirit is 90% likely a standard action, it seems less insane to me. Still very good though.

Yep, its 100% a standard action unless you have a very lenient GM. If your party is not setting the pace of engagements (ie. you're getting ambushed quite often) its probably pretty underwhelming. Even then, sometimes you can use it to pick up such a strong ability that it's worth the loss of your attack that round. I can imagine spending a standard action to pick up the Cyclonic property in order to defeat an opponent's Windwall or Control Winds spell.


Melfice Belmont wrote:
I don't think leaping attack for the mobile fighter deserves a red rating it should at least be orange if not green. Yes, the mobile fighter does lose out on the advanced weapon training (man, miss that def wpn training) but it is otherwise just as good as weapon training. Almost every round a fighter needs to at least make a 5 ft step and most rounds that it doesn't need to it can. Then with the purchase of slippers of feather step, a priority item, the majority of situations where that movement is prevented is removed. Additionally it can be used with any weapon.

This is a very good point. Another thing to consider say the open endedness of the bonus. Let's at you make a Tengu Fighter with two claws and a bite, have taken the AAT for Steel Headbutt, and have Shield Gauntlet Style along with TWF. As long as you move 5 feet, you get a bonus to everything. That's an extreme case, but even just a Half-orc with a falchion, bite and headbutt will like the bonuses on the secondary attacks.

Also, Leaping attack has some nice synergy with Spring-Heeled Style. 10ft and you have +3 at minimum. Actually, the style seems to be made for a Mobile Fighter. At level 11, with rapid shot/twf, the +2 effectively negates the -2 penalty, and the style still has its uses for being able to basically double move past one target you're uninterested in, hitting it, and going after whatever else the hell you want (A potential 140ft move at higher levels with haste/boots of speed). I imagine it'd work well for a character with a double weapon. Half-orc with a orc double axe seems legit.


Just thought I'd point out that you can actually get any item mastery feat through both barroom brawler (helped by abundant tactics) and warrior spirit (getting the training property), as the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat is a combat feat.

This might actually be better, too, since the "item mastery" AWT option specifically states the chosen feat functions with any magic weapon you wield.


I made some builds for this guide, in case you are interested, Jar.

Owner - Grand Adventures Comics and Games

Javaed wrote:

Hello everybody,

A couple of weekends ago I began work on a comprehensive guide to the Fighter as it has been quite awhile since the last one was written. While Rogue Eidolon's insights are quite good (Paizo did hire him after all) his guide sadly is Core only and the additional guides are pretty specific to particular builds. So, I've undertaken the mammoth task of working through everything available to the fighter.

One thing to note, I'm combining the sections on Combat Tricks and Combat Feats for the sake of efficiency. I try to make sure I describe what each Combat Trick does along with the descriptions of their corresponding feats and provide some evaluation for them as well. This is going to take awhile to complete so for now consider all evaluations preliminary.

I appreciate all feedback but as I'm actively working on the document I have disabled comments for now.

Click Here for the Google Doc

Status:
I currently have all archetypes save the race-specific ones evaluated. Additionally I have provided thoughts on Alternate Weapon Training options (they're mostly awesome) and am working through every combat feat, though I'll probably miss a few here or there.

I was wondering if you could help me with a build based on your article here. I am building a Fighter and would like to do the overrun type of character but with all the options you have listed it seems to be pretty exhausting to choose over the best or optimal stuff. Our campaign will be the newer Hell's Vengeance using Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression and it will be Mythic as well as using all current materials including the Stamina stuff.


This guide is great. I wish you keep updating it, Javaed.


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Point that sorely needs to be made on Cleave and Great Cleave. I'd take these on most fighters that I want to be able to fight mass hordes, and might even push Great Cleave until after level 10. Here's why.

The commonly-made point on Cleave is that it's useless after level 6 when you get two attacks. Those two attacks are at +6/+1 BAB. In a particular situation, two enemies next to each other (happens fairly often in mass combat or even Xv2 combat), your attacks are then +6/+6 in exchange for a -2 penalty to AC. Great trade in my opinion.

Great Cleave has similar advantages, but against mass amounts of enemies. Imagine you're playing a Level 12 Melee Fighter, with BAB of +12/+7/+2, and you're typically the one in the middle of combat. How often are you going to have three enemies adjacent to each other? Uh, very often if your GM likes mass combat. In this case, your BAB jumps to +12/+12/+12. Yes, only one attack each, but assuming they're weak enough for you to take them out in one hit each, that's a win for you.

My point is that in campaigns where your GM likes to put you in front of multiple monsters at once, or sends high-level PCs against armies, then these feats are situationally much, much better that a high BAB alone, and it's not exactly a rare situation. Don't be afraid to take these for damage-based fighters who constantly get swarmed.

EDIT: As a reminder, diagonal counts as "adjacent".


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Note on Shield of Swings (since it hasn't been evaluated yet). This feat is an incredible defensive option levels 1-3 or so. In these early levels, half the damage of a greatsword is around the damage of a sword/board fighter, and given the low HP of most of the enemies you fight, this means that you're still 1-hit killing a lot of things, but now with an additional +20% miss chance (the mechanical result of +4 AC). I'd swap it out when you get Defensive Weapon Training, but it's still a good trick for early levels.


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Other weapon special abilities that you're forgetting: Keen and Speed. True, you can do Keen with Improved Critical and that option's stronger as a Fighter with ALL of the feats, but this is still an option, and a very good option. Speed is effectively a permanent Haste effect, but the best part of it. Saves the Wizard a spell, or just gives it to you if you don't have an arcane spellcaster or your caster's pretty blast-happy instead of buff-happy.

EDIT: Also, Speed as a dual-wielder. Flurry of Blows, Fighter Edition.

EDIT: Anarchic/Axiomatic/Holy/Unholy are also decent options. Stronger than the elemental versions, in my opinion, but they should be for being a +2 ability.


Sorry to necro this post but is this guide still being worked on at all? There is still some stuff missing that was said would be added such as the race specific section etc.


When wondering about questions like these I find it useful to click on the OP's name or icon and see the date of their last post. In this case 2016 suggests the answer to you is probably no.

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