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Warning long explanation below:
Some of you may be familiar with my Myths and Legends game, which is currently on hold, at least here on the boards. (Yes, I plan to re-open it, hopefully soon).
For those who aren't, my brother came up with the idea for a table top game where all the players can take turns running a campaign arc for a high powered, mythic, epic level, gestalt game set on Golarion.
Right now, we're level 26, gestalt, with two tiers of mythic. My brother is currently running his arc, involving a dimensional breach on the planet Triaxus that could doom the galaxy if not sealed.
My arc will involve the Spawn of Rovagug, but as I've been reading Occult Mysteries, I decided that I wanted to use the Veiled Masters as the super secret big bads.
And that's where I'm asking for you all to help:
I need at least six(possibly seven, maybe at the very max nine) powerful, badass, epic beings to use as my villains.
Here's the 'catch': Because these are hidden, deep dark villains, buried under webs of lies, millennia of deceit, and are master manipulators of master manipulators, its entirely possible the PCs(myself included) will never actually uncover the Veiled Masters.
Thus, they may not even be needed in game.
I mention this because, while I know there's plenty of people on the boards who enjoy making characters just to make em, I want to be 100% up front that I may, possibly, maybe not end up needing the stats people come up with.
And I just as very well could end up needing all of them. Depending on how the game goes, the heroes could in fact learn and reveal one or more Veiled Masters, and decide to do battle with them.
If that's the case, I will absolutely need the stats, and the player to take the fight to my PCs.
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With all that being said, if this gets some positive responses, I will give character creation details later.
Thank you all who even bothered to read this, let alone any(hopefully) who agree to assist me!
I might be able to help. just let me know what you need.
Oh, this sounds very interesting.
If you accept the idea of an evil, super powerful goblin. I can help.
In case any of your players read these, would you like them sent directly to you instead of put here?
Sounds like a fun time! I'm definitely interested.
I will be posting the rules later tonight as there seems to be plenty of interest.
Yeah, that sounds cool!
I'm in. I'll give you a concept for now since you said it might not be used.
Core Barbarian (Totem Warrior) - Superstitious
RAMP UP STR AND CON
Beast Totem
Dragon Totem
Power Attack
Raging Brutality
Reckless Rage
Spell Sunder
What you get:
A flying, 360 Degree Charging POUNCING madman who has massive saves and sunders the buffs off his enemies.
You realize that Totem Warrior doesn't actually allow you to pick more than one totem?
You are still limited to only one totem line.
Also, posting interest.
Wondering if we're creating Veiled Masters or the Spawns.
While I'm not real interested in building a named Master, I'd totally be up for creating the next Spawn to be spit out of the Pit.
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Some clarification first:
MY Veiled Masters are not super aboleths. That's boring and simple. Or rather, not just aboleths.
Level 35 Gestalt
Prestige Classes are allowed, but must be on a side that qualifies for it.
Race Any, including monsters and custom. CR takes up one half of your gestalt. (I believe that's the norm, lol)
HOWEVER, the creature in question MUST either have some form of innate ability to change shape(the special quality, a SLA, or a spell known) that is at least equivalent to Alter Self. OR it must be have class levels that allow it to cast Alter Self or a more powerful spell.
If you are going to build a custom race you may either:
A) Take an existing race, and upgrade it to 50 total Race Points(Ie an Aasimar is 15 RP. You could spend up to 35 additional RP to upgrade it) or
B) Make a brand new race with 50 race points.
If you choose to make a brand new creation, you MUST include some sort of societal history if its a full on race, or a really good backstory if its a one-shot experiment type creation.
Ability Scores Base 12, 30 point buy, 1 to 1 ratio.
Mythic 5 tiers of mythic.
Sources Any Paizo. Dreamscarred Press psionics. Beyond that, minor things like feats, traits, spells, etc from 3pp is fine, but must be approved by me first.
No other 3pp classes aside from DSP psionics allowed, even other DSP stuff.
Legendary Games Mythic Mania stuff, auto accepted as well.
Templates Yes, but I will be posting an approved list later you can choose ONE from for free(aka no level hit). Otherwise, no.
Wealth/Gear Automatic Bonus Progression with a slight adjustment:
Armor/shields and weapons are bought as normal.
If some mathematically awesome person could do me a favor and determine how much gold a 35th level character should have based on the WBL chart, I would greatly appreciate it. Same for the legendary gifts used by ABP.
Also, you get a signature item, that is the roughly a minor artifact in terms of uniqueness and power for free. Make it awesome lads and lasses, lol.
Leadership You get this feat for free. We heroes did as well, cuz even at 25th gestalt, you're freakin famous enough to auto get this. Use this chart Epic Leadership to determine cohort and followers. Also, you get a +5 to your score in addition to what you feel you should get via Vile Leadership
Favored Minion Another cool bonus we heroes have is we each have a favored minion that's an outsider of some sort that we call/summon.
Feel free to create one as well, choosing from any of the various outsider races, adding an additional 15 gestalt levels to its racial HD.
Special Powers/Unique Abilities Villains, especially epic, ultra uber badasses, need some stuff to set them apart from the not just the heroes, but also more common evil.
Create 3-5 unique powers or abilities that fit your villain. Feel free to go a little nuts, but please keep yourselves in check. No auto wins or unbeatables, please.
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I'll be posting some more rules/guidelines later, but this should be plenty to get you started.
There's no true deadline, but obviously don't take months to get me a submission.
Finally, while optimization is welcome(and even encouraged), please no making something that can't possibly be beat.
You realize that Totem Warrior doesn't actually allow you to pick more than one totem?
You are still limited to only one totem line.Also, posting interest.
Wondering if we're creating Veiled Masters or the Spawns.
While I'm not real interested in building a named Master, I'd totally be up for creating the next Spawn to be spit out of the Pit.
Misread.
Still, obtaining flight is not that difficult. Roll with the beast!
@Snowe: yeah, the Totem Warrior "archetype" is actually pretty useless.
@Monkeygod: I have no idea exactly what I'll be making, but I know for sure it'll involve a dragon of some type.
If some mathematically awesome person could do me a favor and determine how much gold a 35th level character should have based on the WBL chart, I would greatly appreciate it.
Math stuffs: This is pretty difficult to do because it's a mix between linear and exponential growth. You can't simply use a regression line to find the best values. What I went ahead and did was used the values only for levels 10-20 (because using 1-20 gave me too skewed of values)
What I got was a linear regression line of:
Y = 76708.1(X)+(-820000)
with an r value of .946 which means it's a pretty good fit.
Using this equation for a value of 35, we get 1,865,000 gold for level 35. It's not perfect, but it's accurate in a range of 300k
Roughly around the power of a capstone.
Approved templates:
Blood Knight, Dread Lich, Dread Vampire, Graveknight, Half-Celestial, Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend(all types), Inveigler, Lycanthrope, Mummy Lord, any simple(except Advanced).
This is a quick scan of the PFSRD templates, so if there's one you really want, run it by me, and I might allow it.
Just a reminder, limit one template, no level loss. Yes, I realize this means pretty much everybody will take a template, that's totally fine.
However, since these villains won't be a part of a party, there's no harm/penalty, in opting to not take one, should any of them just flat out not fit your concept.
How do you feel about the Ravener template?
How about the quickling template?
I'm thinking bloodrager/inquisitor/sorcerer/monk/arcane archer.
this looks interesting
how about an awakened demi lich, wizard illusionist/cleric 32 Archmage 5
Is placed on the head of his minion, with illusions to make him look like a crown.
Oooooh my.
Considering how much I love character creation. I'm going to drop my interest here. Its especially going to be interesting to actually create a villain character for once!
Going to wait for the full character creation rules through.
How do you wanna handle racial ability score modifiers for monsters? Primarily how would you determine what they are?
Had my RL game tonight, will answer all questions tomorrow.
Are we allowed to request 3PP Archetypes? Like the Chakrem Dervish? and does anyone know any good classes/PrC's and such for a throwing build?
Oh and uh, sorry for the double post. But can away share the Mythic Mania stuff?
Do these villains need to be evil, or just neutral but dedicated to achieving something perhaps unknowingly at the expense of others, or see it as sadly necessary?
Questions! Answers! Jubilation!
Regrading alignment and thus overall backstory:
Generally speaking, yes, these characters should be evil. You are the deepest of darks, hidden underneath layers upon layers of lies, deceit, and manipulations.
Each of you should have ties to at the least 2-3 groups/organizations/religions/countries/etc and how they work towards whatever nefarious ends you have in store.
3pp archetypes can be asked for. Chakram Dervish is fine.
Please post characters here, so they can be looked over by all. The more eyes on high level insanity, the better.
For monster ability scores, I think it should be alright to keep them as is, more or less. If you want to make some slight adjustments(moving some points from Str to say Int) that's fine.
Obviously, if you're going this route, you no longer get the point buy from above, as in many(most) cases straight monster stats are a heck of a lot better than a 30 point buy. I don't want players to feel constrained to just monsters however, and I encourage you all create as best you see fit.
Dread Wraith, and other incorporeal templates are not allowed. They are too strong, and too easily broken.
Classes above 20: Take new classes. Its just so much more simple that way.
No to quickling. While you can get around the rapid aging rate, it's kinda cheating, and obviously these villains are all supposed to incredibly old.
Which reminds me: You all no longer age naturally. Yes, this is an effective form of immortality, but it only applies to dying of old age.
Ravener is an approved template.
Starting wealth: 2 million.
You also get an additional 1.5 to use on any background plot stuff, such as fortresses, demiplanes, armies, etc. None of this extra gold can be used to directly increase the power of your villain.
Extra info:
Most of the PCs are good. I believe the only one who is not is LN with good leanings.
I'm guessing that the PCs will be around level 28 and mythic tier 3 or possibly 4 by the time my story begins.
While I do not need a massively in-depth backstory, I do require at least a sort of bullet point run down of things you have done, plots you have in motion, enemies and allies you have made, etc.
Each PC is tied to several groups in Golarion. Many of them are open for you all to use, save for the following:
The church of Iomedae. Groups, factions, etc tied to her are fair game, but the actual church itself is off limits.
Eagle Knights, Riftwardens and the exiled/forgotten Orders of the Hellknights(The overall faction is fair game, but there's like 3 or 4 that are listed in their write up as exiled/forgotten/extinct. Those are off limits).
Beyond that, one PC is all about Androan, one was born in Hermea and operates out of Absalom, one is based in Nirmathas and the last is a Hellknight and descendant of Asmodeus, and from Cheliax.
Right, and we'll talk to you about our custom items and custom powers privately? Gotcha
So Legendary Gifts. Whilst it says you only get the levels 21 and 22 when you're doing a non-magical treasure variant. I’m going to ignore that because we’re playing Epic. It gives us a good base anyway, increasing the amount of legendary gifts per level by one each time. So. 23, +9-+21. Which gives us a total of 218 Legendary Gifts. Admittedly, if we just go up to +11, before the progression stops, we’ll only have 163 Legendary Gifts. That’s still enough for everyone to get +6/+6/+6 to psychical and mental ability scores via enchantment, and +5 Inherent bonus to all ability scores, with 107 Legendary Gifts left over.
Am I the only one that things we need more options when it comes to Legendary Gifts?
Okay. I seriously need to stop thinking off all these questions... but for Point Buy. Are we limited to a max of 18 and the start, or if we want, could we start with 42 in one stat and 12 with the others? Through I admit, that is incredibly cheesy...
Okay. I seriously need to stop thinking off all these questions... but for Point Buy. Are we limited to a max of 18 and the start, or if we want, could we start with 42 in one stat and 12 with the others? Through I admit, that is incredibly cheesy...
I mean, if you really wanted to, I suppose you could.
However, I will say this, as just a general comment for all the villains and their overall builds:
it comes down to combat vs any of these bad guys, it would seriously behoove you to make sure your villain is as well rounded as possible.
This is Davin's(my PC) current, 100% UNBUFFED attack:
+45/+45/+40/+35/+30/Holy Scourge(2d6+23+2d6[vs evil]17-20/x3).
He's an Inquisitor, Warpreist, Paladin. He has tons of buffs. That get's a hell of a lot higher.
If you want to make a one trick pony, I can pretty much guarntee we will cleave through him like so much wet paper. Heck, one of us might be able to do that, let alone all of us.
Legendary Gifts I will add in some more later. Do not worry, you'll have plenty to choose from.
If you want characters to be dropped here... we'll, I'll drop what I've done so far on my Villain, Keleran, and wait for feedback. Please don't ask me to put down the mathes through, I'll go over everything again once I'm completely finished.
Also, any Template or Class Recomandation to finish off my build would be GREATLY appreciated. I just drop a MegaRatpor Lycanthope template as I didn't need anything it offered, so I have 6 more levels to play with.
Through ah, I will note that I have taken a few liberties... such as using the Simple Class Templates, 'made' an AntiPaladin Class Template for us evil folks, ignored the Law requirement for Monk (which is stupid if you ask me), using Forcued Offense Blade Skill for throwing attacks and done maximum health per level...
If any of those are an issue, I can modify my character, but it'll seriously weaken them. So, I rather hope that I can keep those few little liberties... admittedly, some of them can be folded into other classes as well as my special abilities, but I'll rather save them for the more unquie flavour to my character instead of the number crunching.
Oh yeah! And before I forget. Do we all gain the +3 to Int, Wis and Cha from being so old? Or do we not get them?
Wait... What on earth are Legendary Gifts?
Its in Automatic Progression. Basically, at levels 18+, you gain Legendary Gifts in order to improve your abilities. Getting +5 inherient to all six stats and +6 enchantment bonus to all six stats costs you 36 Legendary Gifts. After that, all you can do is pairtly upgrade your attuments.
Of course, considering you have somewhere between 163 and 218 Legendary Gifts, pending on DM's decision. We don't exactly much options when it comes to Legendary Gifts. Hence why we're he's going to be drafting many more options.
Still... I think its best to bring this little thing up. When you get to Epic Levels in Pathfinder, you rather start slowing down in prgoression, having so much gold and so many feats you don't know what to do with them all. So I'm just going to throw this up here and see what the DM thinks about it. We don't have to use the Epic Class Progressions either. I know I would love to pick up an Evil verson of the Holy Strike line... but, I know some people will probably say that Mythic Feats and equipment is enough. Just thought it was a good way to burn that 2 million gold we have.
One of the main things I will be allowing for Legendary Gifts is to buy more feats, be there regular or mythic. I just need to figure out a good cost, which I feel should be scaling so as to have some limit on how many you can get.
I skimmed over a bit of that PDF, and it is interesting. If I decide to use it, and I will need to talk to my brother before it gets approved(which means not until at least Sun, as he is away till then), we will definitely not be using epic class progression.
I seriously find epic class levels boring and uninteresting. Nothing new, just + to this or more of that. Its part of the reason I love Mythic so much. New and interesting abilities!
One alteration I think I'll be making, and this is ONLY if that epic PF book gets approved, is that if you have 20 levels in a casting class, you can gain the epic advancement for spells.
This way, we don't have to worry about epic class progression, which I dislike, but you can still benefit from 10+ level spell slots, more spells known, etc.
Fury, those minor adjustments are fine. We've made similar alterations to the rules for the heroic side of the game as well, so no big deal doing that for your villain.
However, note, if you're taking the anit-paladin simple template, that's the only one you get, period. Too many templates get out of hand way too quickly.
As for the +3 to mental stats, eh, not sure. You're already getting a crap ton of stat boosting.
I'll look over your submission later tonight.
Alright, I believe I've outlined what I want my villain to look like.
Great Wyrm Ravener Void Dragon (CR 21), Antipaladin (Sacred Servant) 14/Bloodrager (Crossblooded Arcane/Undead, Primalist), Oracle of Battle 15.
Focusing (ironically) on stealth combat in its natural form, using the Dimensional Whatever line of feats to go everywhere and flank everything, along with a special ability to give him some amount of sneak attack and some Stealth bonuses.
Definitely the anti-typical dragon, with the added benefit of 22nd level sorceror casting, 11th level antipaladin casting, 20th level bloodrager casting, and 15th level oracle casting, plus all the class features that come with it.
Rest of the build coming!
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With Psionics in the Mix I have to do it, Mega Psion Incarnate / Monk / Dredd coming, Can change shape at will, and do a load of other things that will be fun for the players to find out about.
villain of a 1000s faces type.
I am thinking of giving it a weakness or a tell, something that can drop breadcrumbs for players to find.
Also I wanted her/him to have a good logical reason why they are doing bad things. To them is they are doing bad for the greater good, no matter how twisted that view of the greater good may be.
Also to maker my villain playable I am going to stream line some things down, last thing a GM needs is walls of text, I would say if its states what a villain can do and how often then you have a working villain outline you can use.
hehe.
All started work, should be a load of fun.
Eh, if that's the case, I'll swap the Monk and Anti-Paladin Templates for actual class levels, sucks to loose 4 Str, Dex, Wis AND Cha. But if I'm only allowed one template? I'll stick to the fighter template for the bonus feats and weapon training thanks
I'll figure out what to do with my final 6 levels as well...
Soo... how are we doing the Cohort Rules? They Gestalt as well? Any Mythic Tiers or anything? What about the Favoured Minions' CR? I'm guessing its limited to 15, same with the gestalt? Do they get class levels for the rest of the side if their CR is lower than 15?
... What's with the silence?
Was kinda sick on Friday, insanely busy Sat, and Sun was my day of rest. Sorry!!
Cohorts are gestalt. Build them with a normal 30 point buy.
Favored Minions, which you must have the ability to call or summon(they aren't perma pets), can be any CR. Then add gestalt to get it to 30.
Max HP per level. Should go without saying as this level, but just making sure.
Familiars: If you get one via a class feature, you automatically get the benefits of Improved Familiar. Also, all familiars get 75% of their master's HP, not 50%. This should help keep them a bit more useful at this level.
All companions(Familiars, Animal, Mounts, etc): Automatically receive the Advanced template as well as one bonus template chosen by you. Again, be reasonable. Dire is allowed for Animal Comp or Mount.
Also they will get one mythic template, and will thus be mythic creatures/sources where that matters.
Finally, animal companions/mounts will get full HP.
So... I'm guessing you either need to have Gate or a high-level Summon Monster Spell, or have calling the favored minion as one of your special abilities? And only your animal companion will also count as Mythic? Cohort and favoured minion are just gestalt with no mythic themselves?
Still ... Can I make more than one Villain? Just for fun? Well, that. And everyone else seems to have disappeared I swear. Like, why IS no one else asking any questions? Don't people have character stuff they wanna talk?
Any answers on the PDF file? The feats and equipment allowed at all? And I'm guessing I still need to wait a bit until I see the extra legendary gifts?
Gods damnit, server ate my post!
Cohorts are mythic, I forgot to mention that. Make them tier 3, and your villains should be tier 6, not 5, like I originally said.
Familiars, Animal Companions, Mounts, etc all receive on mythic template, thus making them mythic.
Favored minions(I really need a better name here, lol) are not mythic. However, should you truly desire yours to be, I would allow you to use one of your special abilities to gain a mythic version. Their tier can not be higher than your own, so no mythic Balors, for example.
As for how you call/summon them, Gate, Summon Monster, Ally/Binding, etc are all acceptable means. There's also some other class features that allow you call forth an outsider.
Also, there's plenty of ways to learn an outsider's True Name. If you want to go this route, we can work out details like cost and research time, as well as the specific of the agreement.
I've looked over some of the PDF(its LONG) and so far, I like what I see. My brother is also interested, though of course he wants to read through some of it himself.
And yea, I too am totally wondering where the other players went. Hope they haven't gotten scared away!
Finally, yes, you may submit more than one villain. I might even choose them both, depending on much I like them. And this goes for everybody, too!
<Waves
Okay, I'm gonna give you a bit of an idea I had for a super epic bad guy. Since I'm never really going to use him for anything, and I do like building characters, I'll see what I can do.
Nothing says inconspicuous like a Tree. Therefore, I'm making an Awakened Quaking Aspen tree with Alchemist and Druid levels, probably to 20, With a smattering of other things, likely Witch or Monk or something, possibly even Master Spy. I'll play with it a bit. The Quaking Aspen "Pando" is one of the heaviest organisms on Earth, covering 106 acres in Utah and is estimated to be 10k-80k years old.
Now imagine it in Golarion, bigger, and evil.
Since it's a plant, I may not need to take a Template, although Savant is rather interesting to me. The idea is that he'd have spent most of his money creating clones of himself with the Alchemist Clonemaster archetype. Due to his ancient age and magical strength, he may be easily able to remain alive despite the crew's best efforts, but he will be hiding in plain sight. The Whispering Wood in Cheliax. He will be it. The entire wood.
Sure he'll have a few Treants around as minions, and use Plant Shape to change the look of his clones. I'm thinking of making his clones in a Troop formation (Template?). Anyway, just a rough sketch, I'll put some work into it and see what happens.